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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
What are our rights?
    #1641099 - 06/18/03 01:12 AM (14 years, 11 days ago)

I keep hearing everyone talking about our rights. What exactly do you think these "rights" are? I'm curious to know what everyone considers their rights to be.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: What are our rights? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1641112 - 06/18/03 01:18 AM (14 years, 11 days ago)

to be free from being a victim of force unless one is first an instigator of force.

(except in the most extreme of circumstances).

everything i'd call a 'right' falls under this definition... the right to own guns, think however you want, do drugs, say what you want, write what you want, read what you want, wear (or not wear) whatever you want, gamble, pay for sex, sell sex, assosiate with whomever you choose, make consensual business agreements free from forceful intrusion, stay up late, eat candy, play videogames...

as long as you don't do any of the following things: physically assault someone, murder someone, kidnap someone, steal from someone, destroy someone's property, blah blah blah... you have a right to be free from any of these things being done to you.

i think that all crimes in which there is no specific victim are bogus. i also think nudity should be legal. (claiming to be a 'victim' because you saw another human being's naked body is absurd). hell, i even think having sex in public (or at least urinating in public) should be legal as well. (because someone might be 'forced' to see or hear something they'd rather not see or hear is a crappy reason to restrict another person's freedom). any and all obscenity laws are bullshit.

'extreme circumstances' mean ones in which public safety is directly and severely endangered by a person excercising what could be considered their 'rights': if someone was infected with a deadly, contagious disease, they could be quarantined against their will. people cannot own, sell, or purchase anthrax spores, sarin gas, or plutonium.

also laws protecting minors are ok: child labor laws, kiddie porn laws, also minimum age for getting a driver's license, being allowed to buy drugs, enter into contracts, etc.


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Offlinefoghorn
enthusiast
Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 308
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: ]
    #1641310 - 06/18/03 03:03 AM (14 years, 11 days ago)

and whom else do you think those rights should apply to?


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: ]
    #1641321 - 06/18/03 03:07 AM (14 years, 11 days ago)

Excellent reply Mushmaster!  I'm with you 100%.  :thumbup: 


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: foghorn]
    #1641324 - 06/18/03 03:09 AM (14 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

and whom else do you think those rights should apply to?


I would say everyone. Wouldn't you?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: What are our rights? [Re: ]
    #1641325 - 06/18/03 03:09 AM (14 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i even think having sex in public (or at least urinating in public) should be legal as well.




There could be some serious public health issues if those things were legal. Just something to consider. Other than that I'm more or less in agreement.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (06/18/03 03:10 AM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1642033 - 06/18/03 12:39 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

I'll supply a definition of "rights" that most reasonable people would not disagree with:

A right is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a human's freedom of action in a SOCIAL context -- in the absence of other humans, no restrictions on actions are necessary.

Note that the concept of a "right" pertains only to ACTION -- specifically, to FREEDOM of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by other humans.

Rights are conditions of existence required by a human's nature for his proper survival. If a human is to live, it is RIGHT for him to use his mind, it is RIGHT to act on his own free judgement, it is RIGHT to work for his values and to keep the products of his work. If life is his purpose, he has a RIGHT to live as a rational being. Any group, any gang, any nation that attempts to negate a human's rights is WRONG.

There is only one FUNDAMENTAL right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): an individual's right to his own life. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in such action -- which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life. Such is the meaning of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Thus, for every individual, a right is the moral sanction of a POSITIVE -- of his freedom to act on his own judgement, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, uncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a NEGATIVE kind: to abstain from violating his rights.

The concept of "rights" is the concept that provides the logical transition from the principles guiding an individual's actions to the principles guiding his relationship with others. It is the concept that preserves and protects individual morality in a social context -- the link between the moral code of a human and the legal code of a society, the link between ethics and politics. Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law.

An individual holds rights, not FROM "the Collective" nor FOR the Collective, but AGAINST the Collective -- as a barrier which the Collective cannot cross. These rights are a human's protection against all other humans.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
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Re: What are our rights? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1642377 - 06/18/03 03:07 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
i even think having sex in public (or at least urinating in public) should be legal as well.




There could be some serious public health issues if those things were legal. Just something to consider. Other than that I'm more or less in agreement.




Me too...a little information propoganda can help avoid the health issues...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1642810 - 06/18/03 06:31 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

What's the appropriate way to urinate in public?


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: Phred]
    #1642815 - 06/18/03 06:33 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

You may have surmised that I am an environmentalist. Could you give some examples of "appropriate" environmental laws, vs. inappropriate?


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Anonymous

Re: What are our rights? [Re: hongomon]
    #1642821 - 06/18/03 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Just avoid spraying me as I walk by.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1642968 - 06/18/03 07:33 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

My definition of "rights" is pretty simple. As long as do not harm directly harm anyone else or deny them their rights, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Anonymous

Re: What are our rights? [Re: monoamine]
    #1643034 - 06/19/03 12:01 AM (14 years, 10 days ago)

you've used the word you're defining in the very definition of that word...

can you see how that creates a problem?


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: ]
    #1643398 - 06/19/03 02:36 AM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Maybe I misinterpreted the question,but the original poster wasn't looking for an exact definition ala Webster,but wanted to know what people think their rights are or should be.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: What are our rights? [Re: hongomon]
    #1644311 - 06/19/03 12:08 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

hongomon said:
What's the appropriate way to urinate in public? 




Find a public washroom. :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: What are our rights? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1644325 - 06/19/03 12:14 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Good answer. Who wants their streets to smell like an Englishmans breath?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
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Re: What are our rights? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1644381 - 06/19/03 12:35 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

I've never gotten that close to an english MANs' mouth..., so i wouldn't know.... :grin: :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: What are our rights? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1644388 - 06/19/03 12:36 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

:grin:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: What are our rights? [Re: monoamine]
    #1645320 - 06/19/03 05:30 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
Maybe I misinterpreted the question,but the original poster wasn't looking for an exact definition ala Webster,but wanted to know what people think their rights are or should be.



You are correct there, but you also did not outline what you think "rights" are. You just said we should be able to excercise our rights untill it interferes with the rights of others. I was really hoping to snare a few liberals with this one, but unfortuanately the fish aren't biting today.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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