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Invisibleuriahchase
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Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth?
    #3570342 - 01/02/05 09:40 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

My question is; If one beleives in reincarnation or karma or that one must die and be born again etc. in order to obtain enlightenment or have a better life next time or go to heaven etc., then why doesn't that person just end their present life now and forefit any more suffering? Only if one beleives that they have been soooo fuckin' perfect throughout their life (that they truely think that they will no longer have to die and be reborn, but instead will go to heaven or wherever or become whatever and have eternal life) should they continue to live. right?

so then why do those of you who believe in birth and re-birth still go to work, do laundry, go grocery shopping, walk the dog, pay bills, etc. when you know that it's all just a viscious cycle, and at the end of your present life....it's just the begging of yet another 80 years of going to work, feeding the kids, paying the bills, etc.? why not end it now, and get on with the next life??? are'nt you just waiting to die anyway? or has your life been sooo spotless and your actions sooo pure that you are just waiting to finally be over the cycle of birth and re-birth???


seems pointless to put up with the everyday bullshit for another 20-30-40 years allllll just to have to do it again.

go ahead and merinate on that for a while.
and dont give me that "it makes you stronger" or "so you learn the lessons necessary to become one or get into heaven etc." crap! anything that goes on in this lifetime that may be a good lesson to learn doesn't fuckin matter if you can't remember ever learning it. if you forgot something you "learned" than you never learned did ya??

just curious.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
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OfflineGomp
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3570391 - 01/02/05 10:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

you and me are already dead.
the way you make heaven is the way you make it, same goes whit hell. are you "enlightened enough" you wicks understand it all, as knowledge comes in death release, (and dreams) you are there free to live in nirvana, make a hell, rebuilt as a frog as you desire, and so on..
if you want to be free, be free..


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Edited by Gomp (01/02/05 10:07 AM)


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3571013 - 01/02/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Lessons are learned much faster while incarnate.

And who's going to forget?


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: ]
    #3571026 - 01/02/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

well i believe in reincarnation but my eclectic religion reflects highly on astrology, i see it like this... your soul picks a life it wants to have so as to learn a lesson and therefore be able to evolve onto the next cycle, the reason to not end your life, if you dont, is that the lesson has not yet been learned, whtever it may be, if you do end your life voluntarily(prematurely)than thats what was meant to happen, and it happened for a reason ,your lesson had been learned and your soul was ready to move on.


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"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3572025 - 01/02/05 07:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

My beliefs...

The cycle of death and rebirth is infinite. It has never started nor will it ever stop because on my view everything, even Time itself, is cyclic.

You're always going to go through the highest high and the lowest low and everything in between. Every possible life you will live into infinity.

In a Journey without end, where everything will change forever more and every point a point you will infinitely return, the Meaning can only lie in the Journey, living it to it's fullest, playing your part, nothing more and nothing less.


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572194 - 01/02/05 07:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

do some reading into the idea of Bodhisattvas. For example, here http://kyky.essortment.com/whatisbodhisat_rfld.htm . If your "duty" is not only to reach personal enlightenment, but to help all sentient beings along this path, then your life takes on a whole new meaning.

and there are different types of knowledge. cellular knowledge, instinctual knowledge, karmic knowledge, spiritual knowledge, rational knowledge etc etc etc... not all of these require you "remembering" them - rememberance is a function of the rational mind. a knowledge that is distinct from the rational mind (i was going to say "above and beyond" but i think distinct suits it more) has no place being analyzed or processed by the rational mind.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572247 - 01/02/05 07:43 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

MaxHeadroom: who's gunna forget?.....well if you believe that you yourself have been re-incarnated into your present being....what'd you learn from one of your past lives? you do remember don't you?

Incubaby: 1st, i like your name! 2nd, so you're saying that only when i've learned a pre-determined lesson then and only then will i die, and if i chose to end it today...that was meant to be.? suppose i just woke up from a nap....and had the hankerin' to say fuck it! and slit my throat. w/o even 30 sec of thought.....what lesson could i have possibly gained in that 30 secs? and if i learned said lesson before i awoke..why did i not die sooner? if it's because one can live longer than is necessary to obtain said lesson? what purpose is there in living any longer than it takes??

Wiccan: so it's like being strapped down on a roller-coaster "of life" and not being let off till the carny says so....in which case you move on dirrectly to a new ride???? if this is what you beleive what's the point of staying on this ride a day longer......? why not just move on to the next ride and see what's in store. if you beleive that life is death is life..is....death...and so on.....then what's keeping you on this ride for another day, year, lifetime,? don't you wanna check out the other rides?
personally i think that would suck! if there is nothing to look forward to exept another ride or what-have-you, then the ONLY thing that would keep someone on is if it's the biggest baddest mother-fuckin ride around right? and be honest..is everything in your world (life) that fun and amusing?



just wondering...posing questions... i don't quite see it like any of you. I think that the rides do stop. and one has the choice to stop it when they want...before OR after they have learned "the lesson". everything in life can't be predestined, and there has to be more to the cycle of birth and rebirth than ......birth and rebirth. anyone agree? there has to be more to all this than that and if not than im tired of stugglin' soo hard to maintane...


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Edited by uriahchase (01/02/05 07:47 PM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3572367 - 01/02/05 08:05 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan: so it's like being strapped down on a roller-coaster "of life" and not being let off till the carny says so....in which case you move on dirrectly to a new ride???? if this is what you beleive what's the point of staying on this ride a day longer......?




That's the point! You will only play yopur part, nothing more nothing less. You're a TOOL (no flame intended :grin:) or rather a cogwheel in the machine of perfection which is the Anything & All.
You have no choice but to think the thoughts and act the acts that are your part in this life.
You can't choose, everything is fixed! Fifty billion years ago it already was old news that i was going to write this and that my CPU fan would purr while I wrote "going" :evil:

The point is the Journey. You are a possibility thus you are a necessity in the Anything & All.
You will get to ride ALL the rides forever. the rollercoaster is a good analogy, it's the ride that counts, not the getting out of it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572515 - 01/02/05 08:31 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

With no respect for creation everything seems worthless, many have mistakenly killed themselves after a superficial consideration of multiple lives. other lives do not quite start all fresh like nintendo.

on the otherhand
re-incarnation is may just be an allegory for the stream of consciousness, as personality is discharged in a sequence of births and deaths of program sequences which you have stored up.

here again being disrespectful of creation has negative rewards, and crappy program sequences deflect the self in pathetic spirals.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3572762 - 01/02/05 09:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

other lives do not quite start all fresh like nintendo.




Spirituality calls it Karma, Science calls it Cause & Effect.
Cause & Effect lock the universe in a fixed sequence. And the snake will bite it's tail, the circle is round.

Change is a constant.
You were dead, then it changed.
Now you live, but that will change too
And then you're back in the same death that gave you life.

The beauty of my cosmology is that nobody can fuck it up, humanity tends to do that. If we could open a dimensional rift it would be commercialized as an interdimensional dumping spot for toxic waste or become the Disneyverse transdimensional themepark:O


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572948 - 01/02/05 10:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That's the point! You will only play yopur part, nothing more nothing less. You're a TOOL (no flame intended :grin:) or rather a cogwheel in the machine of perfection which is the Anything & All.
You have no choice but to think the thoughts and act the acts that are your part in this life.
You can't choose, everything is fixed! Fifty billion years ago it already was old news that i was going to write this and that my CPU fan would purr while I wrote "going" :evil:

The point is the Journey. You are a possibility thus you are a necessity in the Anything & All.
You will get to ride ALL the rides forever. the rollercoaster is a good analogy, it's the ride that counts, not the getting out of it.




Wiccan, are you saying that no one has choice?  That there is no free will?  Are you saying we are each predestined to act the way we will act? 

And if that is what you are saying, then what chance is there to learn something differently, to do something differently, in this life as compared to past lives?  Aren't we then predestined to make the same mistakes?

I always thought, assuming I believe in reincarnation, that each rebirth brings with it the opportunity to learn and to live differently than we lived in previous lives.  That each new life brings with it the opportunity to make better choices than we made in previous lives, so that we can transcend this physical plane, or whatever it is called.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? *DELETED* [Re: Frog]
    #3573048 - 01/02/05 10:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: poke smot!]
    #3573975 - 01/03/05 03:17 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

jimi hendrix believed in reincarnation....

from his song "message of love":

Well i travel at the speed, of a REBORN man.
I got a lot of love to give, from the mirrors of a hand.

from his song belly button window:

"If you dont want me this time around, id be glad to back to spirit land. And take an even longer rest, BEFORE COMMING DOWN THE SHOOT again. Well I SURE REMEMBER THE LAST TIME baby, they were still hawkin about me then"

He is refering to past incarnation of himself, and also future incarnations of himself............ its all just IT


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Frog]
    #3574295 - 01/03/05 06:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan, are you saying that no one has choice?




Yup, in my cosmology every thought, every action is fixed, pre-set by an all-encompassing circle of cause & erffect.

I looked for the nature of everything using pure science, and I ended up in something that is as much science as spirituality.

You can believe this or challenge it or skip it but in my view nothing escapes from cause & effect. "choice" implies that you can override cause & effect and I found no reasons to believe you can do that unless you can travel through concensus Time at will.

In physics there's this concept of the Laws of Nature. I strongly believe they govern all and that the sum of the anything & all is Perfection.

It's very unusual to believe that there is zero free will.
To defuse the fuirst question I always get:
No you cannot sit on your ass and let the world happen because "everything is fixed anyway". THat would be freedom of choice we do not have. Only those destined to sit on their ass will end up doing so. :evil:

I do believe the brain has a clear part in our actions, but it cannot independently come to a conclusion or plan of action, so it's just more cogwheels. To me, who thought years about this, this cosmos is Divine. As everybody lives the same cycle of lives, we all are the One in a different point in time. Justice is absolute because the unfortunate life will be followed by the fortunate life. As we are One, making One Journey, nobody is sold short by Life.

And: we cannot fuck anything up!
Good, we poison the river, that's fixed. But we protest poisoning the river and stop poisoning the river, thats also fixed. And one day, infinitely repeated, the river will be crystal clean again exactly like before we poisoned it.
Everything is a dance of energies that goes round and round.

Cycles in cycles in cycles. I call my cosmology "The Omnicyclic Universe" because everything consists of cycles within cycles in finally one huge cycle which encompasses the anything and all. :heart:


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3574352 - 01/03/05 08:02 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

to consider that everything is predetermined is a bit cynical
you also have the choice to be cynical or not.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3574480 - 01/03/05 10:16 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

no no i actually see wiccans point.... but yes theres always a but, if one has no choice and is on the roller coaster till the carny says stop. then the carny controls when and how long the ride ride right? so who's the carny in "the omnicyclic universe" the omnicyclic universe itself? and with your belief system if one chose to follow it too, like say a serial rapist....is he to only defend his actions by stating that he had no choice in the matter and neither did the women..? they were just riding on the same coaster...? and that NOTHING could've stopped it from happening.??

also i think your theory makes it very easy to play the victim or never take blame for the actions you may have caused..(whether you had a choice or not) it's just how it is! was and is gunna be! great post though!

oh, so what you're sayin' is that that even if i did wake up with the "hankerin'" to end it all i couldn't....unless it was what is to be.???


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Edited by uriahchase (01/03/05 10:19 AM)


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3574521 - 01/03/05 10:48 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

hah! i just raed a good quote that Gomp posted: something like " The important thing is to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could be. "

Charles DuBois

well,..yet another point of veiw.... so, what im kinda hinting around about i guess is...if when one dies it's NOT just curtains, and the show does go on...why not skip the credits on this show and start the next one? (besides that we have no choice) in the omnicyclic universe...!! i Do really like what you've dubbed it! it sounds nice!


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3574530 - 01/03/05 10:54 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

say a serial rapist....is he to only defend his actions by stating that he had no choice in the matter and neither did the women..? they were just riding on the same coaster...? and that NOTHING could've stopped it from happening.??




In the same line of defense the boyfriend of the raped lady had no choice but to cut off the rapist's sac with a pair of blunt kidsafe plastic scissors. :shocked:


You forget that in my cosmology no freedom from natures rules exist. one can argue it was out of their hands but it's also out of the hands of the judge to convict him via laws nobody had control over too.

Quote:

why not skip the credits on this show and start the next one?



Ah but you can't skip!  Skipping deliberately is a freedom-of-choice thing!

Laws of Nature interact, we are just macromolecules in a cosmic chemical laboratory, which interact predictably if you know all the variables. And concidering everything is interconnected you have to know everything to know anything. So we're all just theorising!


Suppose you turn on your TV and the thing won't work.

SPIRITUAL people will look for hidden meaning
PHILOSOPHICAL people will argue the cosmic logic that a finite number of dollars can only buy an appliance of finite dependability
PRAGMATIC people will call the TV repairman
SCIENTIFIC people screw the damn thing open and discover a dust particle has arc-welded a resistor contact to a capacitor.

But none will see the Smurfs episode they wanted to :grin:


The example you gave: "using the fixed universe as an excuse" does not hold. You only CAN offer an excuse if you got freedom of choice but you only WILL do so if it is pre-determined.. and even then it is fixed if you will actually get away with it.

For concensus-reality's sake I go along with the nearly universal notion we have freedom of choice, but only to not alienate myself further from the milkman who doesn't want a confrontation with the ramifications of Quasar collisions on the fabric of time & space on his 6 AM round through the neighborhood:evil:

Seriously: everyone does something so freaky they can overwhelm others with the BS lingo that comes with it. ("I recommend you wait with inserting a 999 silver until 12 weeks after the Prince Albert" :wink:)
I believe in a fixed, 100% predestined universe but I live with "freedom of choice" until offered a place where such theories are understood and moreover appreciated, such as here :thumbup:

I believe we have consciousness only. We are aware we do things and we are aware why we think we do things. OBSERVER ONLY.

The Omnicyclic Universe as a whole contains and IS everything, the All Encompassing One. As it houses all life, it has Total Consciousness and is the Master of Time and Space which is part of it's body.
You might call that a God if you want. :heart:


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3575140 - 01/03/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

SO, basicaly sit back relax and enjoy the ride! if thats what has already been chosen for you to do.....
      Don't you feel a little empty and sad?...i do now. thinkin' that i just had great sex about 25 min ago, and it had nothing to do with my power-stroke!!? it just was to be! which i don't mind....but i'd like to take some credit for the experiance! :grin: :thumbup:

    basicaly there is no reason not to kill oneself..really.~ it just wouldn't make any difference,..because it was to be..even if one beleives that they are ending it short...they are not. it's all prdestined and already been made known. ~lazy belief system yet i still like the whole outta the box thought that you have been predestined to have.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3575195 - 01/03/05 04:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What we don't remember and always forget as that we chose to live this life. We are all reincarnated in a soul that lives it's life out on earth. Now to look beyond that is to pear at what the nature has created for us to live. To pear through another external dimension and live. When we die our energy only returns to it's resting place. We can choose that when we die as well. Or we can choose to return back to the earth for another life. When we feel we have not succeeded in this life. Once you find your path in life and find out exactly what you want to do, life it up to the fullest. Become a director, become an astronaut, become a hippy. If you are tired of living day by day working doing this and doing that. Become a hippy, or don't label yourself as one, people label you let me remind you. Grow your own food, sit in the stillness of life and meditate. Use the mushrooms to seek higher develepment of the soul(encapsilated spirit). Or leave your soul and live life in a higher dimension full of spiritual powers. Learn more about spirituality and learn that you must first live this life in order to find out how you want to live in the next.

People also believe that there is a higher order of how things work in this galaxy you could always come back a slave. If that life is how you end up you make it to the fullest, you fight the ignorance till the day you die and spend time trying to show people a spiritual existance.


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