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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3575791 - 01/03/05 05:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

basicaly there is no reason not to kill oneself..really.




You're still approaching it from the choice side of things. Stuff...happens. There is no reason. There are things happening inside and outside you but there is no way to add any choice to that.

You're of infinite importance. With you out of the loop the universe was out of balance... because living or dead you are supposed to be a possibility. If something *truely* vanished the universe would come to an end. But it can't: it's a closed system. So yoiu are infinitely valuable.

Your part in that great sex you speak so fonsdly of was destined to be your part :laugh: A billion years ago it was clear that nookie was going to happen. :tongue2:

Quote:

lazy belief system




I think 99/100 people have not put as much energy into their belief system as I did. It encompasses far more then you can grasp in a mere few hours. It's far larger then i told.

"lazy belief system".. wow. In my first post I actually talked of the first mistake of the sitting-down-on-your-ass universe and you keep making that mistake. It really IS very different, people have a hard time to grasp the idea of being pure consciousness.
It took me an awful long time.. and it is wonderful!

Suppose you made a VCR tape of someone eating an apple. If you see it in reverse that person produces the apple from his mouth. That is JUST AS MUCH THE UNIVERSE as the usual way we see things, only the time flows in the opposite direction.

If you let all time flow into one you would find everything is everywhere and there you are, in a point of infinite density, a Black Hole, where matter is static and all that flows is a strand of time chiseling out the situation from the anything & all by the laws that permeate everything...
Call that lazy :wink:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3575965 - 01/03/05 05:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

in every moment you do have choice (to have choice).
it is a matter of posture or the attitude you can pose.
You enjoy far more dignity if you take an attitude with choice.
Also you get much better results.
The fatalistic approach is flawed, like plugging in the wrong wire in a synthesizer. the voltage controlled amplifier wants signal but accepts voltage for amplitude (only), jam raw voltage into the signal slot and you get nothing (it does no harm but no good either). Same with fatalism, it is too dry to control anything and too weak to entertain (as signal) - i would walk from that.
I vote for choice, and it is a dignified thing to put into your attitude every moment of your life.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3576234 - 01/03/05 06:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

                                                                                WOW!.. a great sense of humor too??    :shocked: :thumbup: :jester:    "In the same line of defense the boyfriend of the raped lady had no choice but to cut off the rapist's sac with a pair of blunt kidsafe plastic scissors."

~~~~~yup i knew that I DID have something to do with the graet sex!!~~~~~~ predestined or not it was nice! -sorry.  uh-HEM...shit dude...i see it may take me a while to dissprove with logic (hopefully) your omnicyclic universe theory..(which i've turned a few others on to) you've given this a great amount of thought.
from you Wiccan: in less than 6-7 words (un-educated white trash vocab if you can) tell me what purpose is there for me(anyone) to not end life?

    *note*--for those who might think tooo much, im not like a manic depressive nor do i hold thoughts of suicide. don't worry.~ just like to discuss things...about stuff.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3576292 - 01/03/05 07:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

there is no purpose to end life

as there is no purpose to sustain it

no purpose at all, unless you manifest purpose into your experience

and in that case, purpose is a perceptual phenomenon with no actual 'external roots' in 'reality'

but then we wind up with the concept of consciousness - perception - creating existence. like the tree falling in a forest analogy. logically, determinism seems fine and dandy, and I once fully supported it. however, things are changing (and yet they stay the same).

the concept of choice itself is flawed (think about the concept of choice mentally without language - and you will see there is always only ONE 'choice', and yet we are infinitely FREE.)

otherwise, too much variance in the form of semantics

does not compute!1 :smile:


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OfflinePed
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3578159 - 01/04/05 02:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Before we can approach this question, we need to understand the tremendous influence of karma on our experiences and on each passing life. In fact, it is our karma which makes up every facet of our experience, and which determines the circumstances into which we are born and those under which we will die.

For there to be a relationship between organism and environment, there needs to be a causal continuum that sustains the two in symbiosis. Without a symbiotic relationship between organism and environment, there is no condition for conciousness at all. Since there is conciousness, it follows that there is a sustaining condition for conciousness, and a causal continuum sustaining conciousness. This causal continuum is called the karmic continuum.

Karma is a special instance of cause and effect whereby our actions are the cause and our experiences are the effect. Every aspect of our experience is the result of our past actions, and each of those actions we engage in now will determine our future experiences.

Since the sustaining condition for conciousness obviously exceeds that of a single life-span, it's reasonable to conclude that in fact our own karmic continuum is subject to more than one incarnation as a physical being possessing physical form.

That was some very brief background. I hope it is adequate.

When considering the idea of entering nirvana, it's not appropriate to conceive of it as though there were some guardian to Nirvana's gate watching our actions, waiting for us to "get it right" so that he can let us in on the secret and sneak us into eternal bliss when nobody is looking.

Nirvana is a state of supreme bliss. Since supreme bliss is an experiential state, if we are accepting the laws of karma we must also accept that it is an experiential state generated as an effect of a cause: our own actions. Those actions which make us miserable are considered negative actions, or "bad karma", and those actions which bring us closer to nirvana are considered positive actions, or "good karma." When we engage in many positive actions, we create positive potentialities within our mind which will manifest as positive experiences. When there are no more negative potentialities within our mental continuum, that is to say, no more potential for the experience of suffering, suffering ceases and we enter into a liberated state.

Considering this, it would be totally senseless to murder ourself and "get on with it". Given that we've had so many lives as so many different creatures engaging in so many positive and negative actions, our death means that we migh be reborn in far less fortunate circumstances than those we are in now. We might lose the opportunity to engage in positive actions altogether. We might condemn ourselves to aeons and aeons of suffering and disatisfaction before finally hearing again that there is a means of escape.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3578348 - 01/04/05 05:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan: in less than 6-7 words tell me what purpose is there for anyone to not end life?




Seven words, sorry, can't, but let me try to prune it to it's essence.


you can't do it if you're not destined to do it
it gets you nowhere but back in the womb again
the cause "suicide" will inevitably have an effect later on


Suicide in some rare cases can be justified objectively but in that way it falls under euthanasia.




The medical science brought my mother in a condition where only the machines were keeping her dead body functioning and trapped her spirit in a lifeless body amidst asphyxiated flesh.

As someone had to do it I had to give permission to raise her morphine and midazolam and decrease the added oxygen to the ambient 21% so she would die.

That was passive euthanasia and I gave my permission on the condition a syringe with 500mg morphine was to be equipped with a needle and put in the room with us, so that if they managed to botch her peaceful death as well, that I could actively end what they were legally unable to. A nurse brought the syringe but fortunately she peacefully slipped out of life without active intervention.
7 march 1940 - 4 July 2003 R.I.P

On the morning of 27 december 2002 I woke up in the midst of a heart attack. Intensive Care Unit. Near Death Experience. Sleep Deprivation Delirium. And now I start and end the day with a handful of heart drugs knowing full well that every second of the day or night the Divine Sledgehammer may pound me on my chest, so I cannot take my nitro, and the Damocles Sword of the proximity of DEATH hangs over my head ever since. You can argue we may all die at any given time, but if you look at it from a completely unpredictable inoperable genetic heart condition that'll ram you with a fullblown myocardial infarction it is not quite the same thing.


So I've got a pretty well-defined idea about death.
Suicidal people who actually commit an attempt are pretty rare. Those who succeed even rarer. I am convinced that the Universe only takes those who's life truely was over, and puts them in their next life.

In the case of my mother, who's preventive surgery was botched which was her cause of death.. She was a chronic pain patient and was chronically depressed in her last months and saw no purpose in life. Her only highlights was the poppyhead- and marijuana tea I made for her on sundays because she wanted to know the pleasures I indulged in.

We later found out that if she had survived the surgery, if the surgeon did not botch it, she would've needed a colostomy bag (unnatural defacation through an opening in the tummy), her already frail body would have been put in the wheelchair, her limbs were asphyxiated and perhaps had to be amputated, she would need another surgery, we found out she was in the early stages of Alzheimer's Dementia and all the while she would be the clinically depressed pain patient she was before the surgery.

I believed in predestination before, but this rare failure of surgery has in fact made her die like she was in dignity, instead of being subjected to several months or years of a deteriorating life thatr held nothing but mounting agony for her.
As I pieced it together her life had come to an end and the surgeon's mistake was predestined to take her life when it was her time.
The Laws of Nature, or God, had said: "No More." and made the surgeon fail the operation but in fact save her from months or years of incomprehensible agony.


So to end this tale of my mother's death and my own imminent death and come back on topic:

A voluntary end of life in some cases in my view can be argued to be justified, but I believe that in all cases death was brought about, that person's time had come.
In my mother's case it was plain to see for most why it likely was the last dignified moment for her to die, and that one may argue her time had come.

I believe for myself that the Divine Sledgehammer of heart-attack will smite me on the very second my life has come to completion, and none sooner or later.

If it is today my relatives & friends will argue it was before my time. If you cancel out the Answers provided by the Death Experience and would allow me to speak from my coffin I would likely say the same and in fact bitterly complain why the fuck this has had to happen to me and what happened to that damn cosmic justice and so forth.

But I believe that death will only come when your time has come, and birth will only come when time has come, and that everything in between on either side happens like clockwork in a clockwork universe.

That is not fatalistic because it fills me with the joy that there is in fact a Divine Plan, a Purpose, and that this is ABSOLUTE, and nothing can deviate or be led astray from their part in the grand scheme of things no matter what they do.

If a hydrogen bomb exploded above my head, and the roof is smacked down on me at 700 miles per second, I would've died in a Universe of Perfect Justice where all is renewed into Infinity.
That is not convenient wishful thinking of a cardiac patient but the point where my science side and my spirituality side got together and hugged, many years ago.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3582125 - 01/04/05 11:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

uriahchase why haven't you killed yourself yet?

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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3583022 - 01/05/05 05:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

honestlty?........i enjoy living and no matter what lessons ive learned or what "roller coaster" im on at the moment....i think that theres more to learn, and that i can get off a paticular ride whenever I WANT TO. life may enevitably lead to death and then to life again.....who knows? i figure as long as i can still wipe my own ass, feed myself, see my penis(instead of belly), and people still enjoy my company,..life ain't that bad right NOW.....this ride is chill..for NOW.
and the sex is good!!!


and yes.....im not soo strongly rooted in any beleif of afterlife, that i could ever find the courage to kill myself.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3583076 - 01/05/05 06:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

im not soo strongly rooted in any beleif of afterlife, that i could ever find the courage to kill myself.




You gotta realize that suicide indeed takes courage, but it is the bitter courage of desperation, the choice to blow all you have in the hopes you are better off.
There is no way we can be certain if this in fact will be so.

I think you now are in a hard time of your life and look fearfully that maybe some day you will lose things that keep you going.

This is where Spirituality and Philosophy come in.
Even if your body allows no external joys in this world your mind and spirit need not be unhappy. The fact that you LIVE in Auschwitz does not prohibit you from falling in love, and in fact many inmates of these dire hellholes found love which was to last their lifetimes.

And when your circumstances take a turn for the worse you will in time find other things to live for. The human nature is such that if you are at least neutral in your Spir & Phil you will always find things worth living. Even if you see those soul-tearing images of African kids, bellies swollen round with hunger edema, limbs like matchsticks, nothing around but hut sand, a merciless sun and the flies who grew from the bodies of those that didn't make it, even those wretched kids often can be seen to genuinely smile.

A big thing to realize is that happiness is RELATIVE TO YOUR GROUND STATE.

If you're a happy marathon athlete and get plunged in a wheelchair, you will go through a phase of severe unhappiness. When your mind & spirit accept that this is your new ground state, you will develop happiness again which can be every bit as high as that of the marathon runner you once were.

Spirituality in happy times is nice. But it gets proven when Life gets rough.

Imagine that you stand at the Pearly Gates, saint Peter looks in the big book, staggers back against the Gates and gasps: "MAN! did you actually ride that one out?!"
It's a silly image but life is full of challenges and if you believe in freedom of choice it's about how you choose to deal with that despite the odds :thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3583256 - 01/05/05 07:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

wiccan
sometimes I think what you say is dogmatically expressed:
as if you are pointing at things as if outside of the self,
and seeming to apply them to everyone,
but really these are features of your personal
landscape.

from that vantage point I can learn from what you say


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3583339 - 01/05/05 08:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks, RedGreenVines!

Like everyone, I have nothing more to offer then my own personal opinion and experiences. Highly subjective. I don't believe a human can ever attain true objectiveness.

In my universe, if I state: "This is how it is!" it can only mean "this is what I'm convinced of".

There is only one absoluteness, and that's ( <--- see me do it again!) the Cosmos in it's entirety. The rest is nothing but ( <---and again!) subjective.

Even my strongest truth is 99% certain to me at most. In my view there are only degrees of certainty.

"It is very likely that the stance of Physics is correct"
After having their point of view overturned several times in the past 5.000 years true physics has abandoned "Absolute Truth" for "High Probability" and that set the "Religion of Logic" apart from the other Religions. Because even in Science you are nothing but a believer in what can be an "overwhelming likelyness" at most.

It is still fully possible that one day an apple will fall upwards off a tree and land on the moon. We know we have not yet uncovered the entire fabric of the universe, so cannot predict all circumstances, and the time we spent observing the falling of apples spans but a few thousand years in the sea of time that is our universe.

Thus I conclude that we know nothing and assume every statement to be subjective. Don't be put off if I say "this is how it is" because I can omnly spean from my world outward.


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Offlinenivek33
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #10252312 - 04/28/09 09:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

sorry to revive this old thread, but i was searching for something and Wiccan's beliefs struck a chord with me because it is almost identical to my own belief. I've never really had anyone else come to my same conclusion of Everything as Wiccan has.

in short, at some point in my life I realized that my consciousness always has been and always will be. I realized that it is going through an eternal set of possible experiences that will continue forever and ever. I realized that there is no you...only myself, because I (my consciouness)am you, experiencing your exact life as you are living it now on a different plane, simultaneous to the one I am experiencing now, as well as simultaneous to every other living organism. I have realized the perfection of everything... I, consciousness, god, (not my human form) has found away to exhaust eternity without realizing it...and I remembered it in this current life

the beauty of it is our consciousness is designed  to not 'remember' the last life, and not worry about your next. Just be here, now. Enjoy the entity and personality you currently are because you may only get to be them once, for all of eternity.

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