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InvisibleSinbad
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Pure mind at birth?
    #3541633 - 12/25/04 08:38 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Are we born with pure minds?

When i look into a babies eyes its at as though they have some open understanding free from the trappings of the intellect, is this pure mind? Do we start out pure? it seems like the older we get the more garbage piles up in our minds and if only we could get back to that childlike state which appears to be closer to how we really are. In my opinion most people have completely lost themsleves in mental confusion, mushrooms and other such ethogens can be used and commonly are used to open us and bring us closer back to this pure mind. Im interested to learn what others think on this subject. Are we all born with universal knowlege?  :japsmile:


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Edited by Sinbad (12/25/04 08:48 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3541679 - 12/25/04 09:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Spacious awareness with simple objectivity, yes.

However, pyschologists may add that there are natural temperaments, instincts, and genetical traits, etc. in us and so forth.

Here I believe the proper analogy between the spacious awareness and innate characteristics is that of the ocean and it's contents, i.e. jaws, etc.

The ocean is spacious awareness...and always remains constant, non-fleeting. The contents within it are the characteristics, egos, personalities, etc.. and always come and go; they are fleeting, and are not of the ocean itself.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3541686 - 12/25/04 09:45 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

terms like universal knowledge undermine appreciation of a child's mind.
children, and babes have all the mental horsepower that we run with merely channelled at less defined chords (and discords) of experience.
pure in the sense of lacking knowledge or pre-established connections.
pure in an attainable open attitude (which we can enjoy from time to time, by letting things flow, and watching)
pure in the sense that defensive routines are not engaged (not even available)
pure in the sense that adjenda and seeking are simple: eat sleep comfort amuse.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3541687 - 12/25/04 09:45 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Very interesting, when do the formation of these personalities and ego appear first in a child, is the formation of language the first formation of thought and ego? If so then what about when a baby cries for food or to be changed, are these the first indications of ego and thought, or just actions based on natural instict? Will we ever know what occurs in the mind of a baby, if anything at all does occur! After all very few people have memories from that early age.  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3541694 - 12/25/04 09:51 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

When i say pure, i mean pure as in primordially perfect concioussness, as in free from defilments, free from ego grasping, wide open, fully awake, unconditioned. Are they experincing pure concioussness! how do these statements undermine the appreciation of a childs mind? i dont follow? please explain.


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Edited by Sinbad (12/25/04 09:53 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3541696 - 12/25/04 09:52 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Some answers can be found here...



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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3541709 - 12/25/04 09:56 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Wow! SkorpivoMusterion i think that site had just anwered all of my questions on this subject. thank you. That document certainly rings true with me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3541787 - 12/25/04 10:50 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
When i say pure, i mean pure as in primordially perfect concioussness, as in free from defilments, free from ego grasping, wide open, fully awake, unconditioned. Are they experincing pure concioussness! how do these statements undermine the appreciation of a childs mind? i dont follow? please explain.




nothing really to follow.
your concepts, perfect, defilement, ego -grasping.. are well fenced mental constructs which separate you from understanding the mind of some newborn who has no such constructs or fences.

Transcend those fences and you are there, but, in being there, you may not grasp souveniers to return with, fenceless and defenseless relate well to the more primordial states.

The ability to resonate with arising sensation and feelings is equally strong (maybe stronger), but mental constructs are minimal in a newborn's mind. The newborn and child minds do build and take down fences at a much faster rate than our adult minds - that is the focus of the early grasping intelligence.

meantime to understand child mind one has to unlearn, at least a bit, for at least a glimpse.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3541808 - 12/25/04 11:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Of course concepts are unsatisfactory when attempting to communicate something that is beyond concept. However you still did not explain how any what was written undermined the appreciation of a childs mind?

I too belive that the mind of a new born has less mental concepts, but how did you come to this knowlege, you seem to be very confident in your view?

What are these souveniers you speak of?

My friend, i am already a student of the great school of unlearning  :mushroom2:  :smirk:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3541835 - 12/25/04 11:27 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

we are born whit out minds :P mind is memes?

oh dang, someone must have borrowed my computer, I strongly reject what is written above :P


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3541976 - 12/25/04 01:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

although your terms are full of respect and awe, when you use them you bring up obstacles to insight (particularly so as we are talking about the unconditioned minds of babes)- the terms themselves represent an attitude or even belief system or cosmology, constructed and ordered and fenced in. This attitude is a map of your conditioning.
the map needs being discarded 'cause you must get lost to see as the child sees.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3542084 - 12/25/04 02:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Im sorry i dont understand how my terms are "full of respect and awe"? Nor do understand what you mean by "obstacles to insight", what DO you mean? Also you have not attempted to answer any of the questions i posed to you in my last post or provided explainiations.

Why are you professing to know "the map of my conditioning" as you so eliquently put it when you know nothing about me or any belief systems or any conditioning that i may or may not have?

Your line of reasoning is way off topic. By this thread i was merley attempting to enquire into whether or not we as human begins are born pure and unconditioned!

Anyway, i hope everyone here is having a loveley Christmas!  :santaclaus:

Respect


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Edited by Sinbad (12/25/04 02:13 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3542146 - 12/25/04 03:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Are we born with pure minds?

When i look into a babies eyes its at as though they have some open understanding free from the trappings of the intellect, is this pure mind? Do we start out pure? it seems like the older we get the more garbage piles up in our minds and if only we could get back to that childlike state which appears to be closer to how we really are. In my opinion most people have completely lost themsleves in mental confusion, mushrooms and other such ethogens can be used and commonly are used to open us and bring us closer back to this pure mind. Im interested to learn what others think on this subject. Are we all born with universal knowlege?  :japsmile:




no learning no mistakes...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3542179 - 12/25/04 03:27 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

it is unconditioned when in the womb.


the term "pure", however, is difficult, what might you mean by that term?

the thread begins with this key issue:"When i look into a babies eyes its at as though they have some open understanding free from the trappings of the intellect, is this pure mind?"

the mind is always itself. it is everything; More pure or less pure, or 99% pure, these are not relevant or applicable.

Pure in the sense of morality, or not having sexual thoughts? well also really not applicable but what goes on in the baby's head is probably very ogasmic or at least perverse in our terms.

(pure in the sense that the 3 evil roots Hatred greed and delusion have not yet put on a hold - even that is not a given as the child is often subject to some type of rage that reeks of suffering from these roots)

The term pure skids off into topic areas that are far from understanding the child's polymorphous mind.

the other question (you have 2 it seems to me in this thread): "Are we all born with universal knowlege?"

well what is that -"universal knowlege"?
(it sounds like big words to be found printed in capitals in some leaflet handed out on the corner for free.)

Yet in a way, all that need be known is already inside, but it is unknowable too, in the sense that we do not get to grasp it and build fences and empires from this inner "knowledge" - it is not, in fact, knowledge at all. instead we are born with a sense of a universably applicable openness with which to find our paths - a sense of how to approach the moment.

really I dd try to speak to your questions, as well as I also tried send you back to the asking corner.

the way some questions are put, there are no good answers - some questions can channel too strongly - they can even obliterate the subject or move it into a different category than is natural.

so what do you really see when you look in the eyes of the child,
do you see the mirror of your own essence - naked lost and powerful?


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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3542186 - 12/25/04 03:39 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

in the eyes of a child, you see darkness that is darker than of the one 'lived' to fill it whit light. in other words, you see less reflection.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3542239 - 12/25/04 04:22 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Im speechless. your post was very well written redgreenvines, unfortunalty i am forever in the asking corner :grin:. When i look into a child eyes i see untainted openess, and i see this graduallty gets lost as the child gets older.

But really i think the link from the other post says it all, and basically put most of my questions to sleep.

Thank you for your time,

Respect


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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3542534 - 12/25/04 07:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Some answers can be found here...





From the article you quoted, Skorp:

"The first thing to be understood is what ego is. A child is born. A child is born without any knowledge, any consciousness of his own self. And when a child is born the first thing he becomes aware of is not himself; the first thing he becomes aware of is the other. It is natural, because the eyes open outwards, the hands touch others, the ears listen to others, the tongue tastes food and the nose smells the outside. All these senses open outwards.

"That is what birth means. Birth means coming into this world, the world of the outside. So when a child is born, he is born into this world. He opens his eyes, sees others. 'Other' means the thou. He becomes aware of the mother first. Then, by and by, he becomes aware of his own body. That too is the other, that too belongs to the world. He is hungry and he feels the body; his need is satisfied, he forgets the body."

I think I may disagree with this, because of something I read years ago. The baby is aware of himself, first. But not aware of himself as a being, but as a series of needs. The baby cries because he is wet, or hungry, or tired. When the needs are met, the baby may look around, but it can't even see past a foot in the first week of life.

If the baby was aware of the mother first, and then itself, why wouldn't the baby stop crying when the mother picked up the baby? Wouldn't the baby be aware of what the mother was there to do, such as change it, feed it, rock it to sleep?

This is because it is only concerned with its needs, and this is something we grow the child away from until the child is old enough to be thrown out on its ass, when it's 18 years old. j/k.

Children are ego-driven from day one. They are self-centered and driven by their own needs and, later, desires. It isn't until they are well into their 20s and even 30s, that children are grown up enough to put others before themselves. Usually, not until they have children of their own.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Frog]
    #3542710 - 12/25/04 09:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

baby is aware in the womb.
birth is a big traumatic separation from the non breathing stasis, but awareness of sensation and events and some memories are starting before expulsion into the cold air.
the foundation is set earlier than birth.


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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: Frog]
    #3542839 - 12/25/04 09:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The baby is aware of himself, first. But not aware of himself as a being, but as a series of needs. The baby cries because he is wet, or hungry, or tired. When the needs are met, the baby may look around, but it can't even see past a foot in the first week of life.

It seems you are confusing instinctual, outward needs with a false inward center.
An inward center must be installed, by such criteria as listed in the article...
No baby is going to be born with an illusionary inward sense of self.
If my body needs food, that is because my stomach is empty and my body needs sustenance and energy. This is an outward movement.
With a baby, there is no ego to build that basic need around, and/or to warp it into some subjective desire, i.e., "I want a peanut buster parfait from Dairy Queen, because I dislike that or this, therefore I want this." Then, it is an inward movement, and creates the potential for conflict.

Basically, you must understand the context of which ego is being discussed in the article; a false inward center.
There must first be certain experiences to take place before that inward center can be formed ? a baby is not born with those experiences. The baby will have an outward perception, and later on, begin to develop the psychological inward perception and center.

There is a thread called "Psychological Roots of Conflict" that I created fairly recently, which discussed this concept, amongst others.

If the baby was aware of the mother first, and then itself, why wouldn't the baby stop crying when the mother picked up the baby?

Countless possibilities here. Perhaps the baby was experiencing physical discomfort.

Wouldn't the baby be aware of what the mother was there to do, such as change it, feed it, rock it to sleep?

I don?t follow what you?re trying to illustrate here. You?re saying that because the baby is simply aware of the mother and itself, it should know what the mother?s motherly duties are? I don?t quite follow all the steps here. Please elucidate.

Children are ego-driven from day one. They are self-centered.

I disagree, unless you neglected to mention that you agree that children can have outward 'egos' as in filters of sorts, but lack of attachment and identification with egos, i.e. Being-cognition, as Dr. Abraham Maslow would put it.
Deficiency-cogition is what stems from identification with the ego and minds.
All healthy children have being-cognition... which in layman's terms, is identification with spacious awareness.
There is another thread I created on this subject called "Intrinsic wisdom of children".

Try not to confuse outward movements with inward [egoic] movements disguised as needs.



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Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (12/26/04 12:27 AM)


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Re: Pure mind at birth? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3543280 - 12/26/04 12:54 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This is why I often think that when there is a discussion on ego in this forum, that maybe a different ego is being discussed than the ego of which I learned when in college.

I am familiar with Freud's ego. Did he not create the term?

In the article for which you posted a link, does not the person discuss ego? Is it the same ego as Freud's ego?

Before going further, I need to understand if we are discussing Freud's ego.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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