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Invisibleuriahchase
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Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth?
    #3570342 - 01/02/05 07:40 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

My question is; If one beleives in reincarnation or karma or that one must die and be born again etc. in order to obtain enlightenment or have a better life next time or go to heaven etc., then why doesn't that person just end their present life now and forefit any more suffering? Only if one beleives that they have been soooo fuckin' perfect throughout their life (that they truely think that they will no longer have to die and be reborn, but instead will go to heaven or wherever or become whatever and have eternal life) should they continue to live. right?

so then why do those of you who believe in birth and re-birth still go to work, do laundry, go grocery shopping, walk the dog, pay bills, etc. when you know that it's all just a viscious cycle, and at the end of your present life....it's just the begging of yet another 80 years of going to work, feeding the kids, paying the bills, etc.? why not end it now, and get on with the next life??? are'nt you just waiting to die anyway? or has your life been sooo spotless and your actions sooo pure that you are just waiting to finally be over the cycle of birth and re-birth???


seems pointless to put up with the everyday bullshit for another 20-30-40 years allllll just to have to do it again.

go ahead and merinate on that for a while.
and dont give me that "it makes you stronger" or "so you learn the lessons necessary to become one or get into heaven etc." crap! anything that goes on in this lifetime that may be a good lesson to learn doesn't fuckin matter if you can't remember ever learning it. if you forgot something you "learned" than you never learned did ya??

just curious.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
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OfflineGomp
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3570391 - 01/02/05 08:07 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

you and me are already dead.
the way you make heaven is the way you make it, same goes whit hell. are you "enlightened enough" you wicks understand it all, as knowledge comes in death release, (and dreams) you are there free to live in nirvana, make a hell, rebuilt as a frog as you desire, and so on..
if you want to be free, be free..


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Disclaimer!?

Edited by Gomp (01/02/05 08:07 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3571013 - 01/02/05 01:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Lessons are learned much faster while incarnate.

And who's going to forget?

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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: ]
    #3571026 - 01/02/05 01:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

well i believe in reincarnation but my eclectic religion reflects highly on astrology, i see it like this... your soul picks a life it wants to have so as to learn a lesson and therefore be able to evolve onto the next cycle, the reason to not end your life, if you dont, is that the lesson has not yet been learned, whtever it may be, if you do end your life voluntarily(prematurely)than thats what was meant to happen, and it happened for a reason ,your lesson had been learned and your soul was ready to move on.


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"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3572025 - 01/02/05 05:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

My beliefs...

The cycle of death and rebirth is infinite. It has never started nor will it ever stop because on my view everything, even Time itself, is cyclic.

You're always going to go through the highest high and the lowest low and everything in between. Every possible life you will live into infinity.

In a Journey without end, where everything will change forever more and every point a point you will infinitely return, the Meaning can only lie in the Journey, living it to it's fullest, playing your part, nothing more and nothing less.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572194 - 01/02/05 05:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

do some reading into the idea of Bodhisattvas. For example, here http://kyky.essortment.com/whatisbodhisat_rfld.htm . If your "duty" is not only to reach personal enlightenment, but to help all sentient beings along this path, then your life takes on a whole new meaning.

and there are different types of knowledge. cellular knowledge, instinctual knowledge, karmic knowledge, spiritual knowledge, rational knowledge etc etc etc... not all of these require you "remembering" them - rememberance is a function of the rational mind. a knowledge that is distinct from the rational mind (i was going to say "above and beyond" but i think distinct suits it more) has no place being analyzed or processed by the rational mind.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572247 - 01/02/05 05:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

MaxHeadroom: who's gunna forget?.....well if you believe that you yourself have been re-incarnated into your present being....what'd you learn from one of your past lives? you do remember don't you?

Incubaby: 1st, i like your name! 2nd, so you're saying that only when i've learned a pre-determined lesson then and only then will i die, and if i chose to end it today...that was meant to be.? suppose i just woke up from a nap....and had the hankerin' to say fuck it! and slit my throat. w/o even 30 sec of thought.....what lesson could i have possibly gained in that 30 secs? and if i learned said lesson before i awoke..why did i not die sooner? if it's because one can live longer than is necessary to obtain said lesson? what purpose is there in living any longer than it takes??

Wiccan: so it's like being strapped down on a roller-coaster "of life" and not being let off till the carny says so....in which case you move on dirrectly to a new ride???? if this is what you beleive what's the point of staying on this ride a day longer......? why not just move on to the next ride and see what's in store. if you beleive that life is death is life..is....death...and so on.....then what's keeping you on this ride for another day, year, lifetime,? don't you wanna check out the other rides?
personally i think that would suck! if there is nothing to look forward to exept another ride or what-have-you, then the ONLY thing that would keep someone on is if it's the biggest baddest mother-fuckin ride around right? and be honest..is everything in your world (life) that fun and amusing?



just wondering...posing questions... i don't quite see it like any of you. I think that the rides do stop. and one has the choice to stop it when they want...before OR after they have learned "the lesson". everything in life can't be predestined, and there has to be more to the cycle of birth and rebirth than ......birth and rebirth. anyone agree? there has to be more to all this than that and if not than im tired of stugglin' soo hard to maintane...


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

Edited by uriahchase (01/02/05 05:47 PM)

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3572367 - 01/02/05 06:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan: so it's like being strapped down on a roller-coaster "of life" and not being let off till the carny says so....in which case you move on dirrectly to a new ride???? if this is what you beleive what's the point of staying on this ride a day longer......?




That's the point! You will only play yopur part, nothing more nothing less. You're a TOOL (no flame intended :grin:) or rather a cogwheel in the machine of perfection which is the Anything & All.
You have no choice but to think the thoughts and act the acts that are your part in this life.
You can't choose, everything is fixed! Fifty billion years ago it already was old news that i was going to write this and that my CPU fan would purr while I wrote "going" :evil:

The point is the Journey. You are a possibility thus you are a necessity in the Anything & All.
You will get to ride ALL the rides forever. the rollercoaster is a good analogy, it's the ride that counts, not the getting out of it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572515 - 01/02/05 06:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

With no respect for creation everything seems worthless, many have mistakenly killed themselves after a superficial consideration of multiple lives. other lives do not quite start all fresh like nintendo.

on the otherhand
re-incarnation is may just be an allegory for the stream of consciousness, as personality is discharged in a sequence of births and deaths of program sequences which you have stored up.

here again being disrespectful of creation has negative rewards, and crappy program sequences deflect the self in pathetic spirals.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3572762 - 01/02/05 07:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

other lives do not quite start all fresh like nintendo.




Spirituality calls it Karma, Science calls it Cause & Effect.
Cause & Effect lock the universe in a fixed sequence. And the snake will bite it's tail, the circle is round.

Change is a constant.
You were dead, then it changed.
Now you live, but that will change too
And then you're back in the same death that gave you life.

The beauty of my cosmology is that nobody can fuck it up, humanity tends to do that. If we could open a dimensional rift it would be commercialized as an interdimensional dumping spot for toxic waste or become the Disneyverse transdimensional themepark:O


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3572948 - 01/02/05 08:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That's the point! You will only play yopur part, nothing more nothing less. You're a TOOL (no flame intended :grin:) or rather a cogwheel in the machine of perfection which is the Anything & All.
You have no choice but to think the thoughts and act the acts that are your part in this life.
You can't choose, everything is fixed! Fifty billion years ago it already was old news that i was going to write this and that my CPU fan would purr while I wrote "going" :evil:

The point is the Journey. You are a possibility thus you are a necessity in the Anything & All.
You will get to ride ALL the rides forever. the rollercoaster is a good analogy, it's the ride that counts, not the getting out of it.




Wiccan, are you saying that no one has choice?  That there is no free will?  Are you saying we are each predestined to act the way we will act? 

And if that is what you are saying, then what chance is there to learn something differently, to do something differently, in this life as compared to past lives?  Aren't we then predestined to make the same mistakes?

I always thought, assuming I believe in reincarnation, that each rebirth brings with it the opportunity to learn and to live differently than we lived in previous lives.  That each new life brings with it the opportunity to make better choices than we made in previous lives, so that we can transcend this physical plane, or whatever it is called.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? *DELETED* [Re: Frog]
    #3573048 - 01/02/05 08:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: poke smot!]
    #3573975 - 01/03/05 01:17 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

jimi hendrix believed in reincarnation....

from his song "message of love":

Well i travel at the speed, of a REBORN man.
I got a lot of love to give, from the mirrors of a hand.

from his song belly button window:

"If you dont want me this time around, id be glad to back to spirit land. And take an even longer rest, BEFORE COMMING DOWN THE SHOOT again. Well I SURE REMEMBER THE LAST TIME baby, they were still hawkin about me then"

He is refering to past incarnation of himself, and also future incarnations of himself............ its all just IT

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Frog]
    #3574295 - 01/03/05 04:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan, are you saying that no one has choice?




Yup, in my cosmology every thought, every action is fixed, pre-set by an all-encompassing circle of cause & erffect.

I looked for the nature of everything using pure science, and I ended up in something that is as much science as spirituality.

You can believe this or challenge it or skip it but in my view nothing escapes from cause & effect. "choice" implies that you can override cause & effect and I found no reasons to believe you can do that unless you can travel through concensus Time at will.

In physics there's this concept of the Laws of Nature. I strongly believe they govern all and that the sum of the anything & all is Perfection.

It's very unusual to believe that there is zero free will.
To defuse the fuirst question I always get:
No you cannot sit on your ass and let the world happen because "everything is fixed anyway". THat would be freedom of choice we do not have. Only those destined to sit on their ass will end up doing so. :evil:

I do believe the brain has a clear part in our actions, but it cannot independently come to a conclusion or plan of action, so it's just more cogwheels. To me, who thought years about this, this cosmos is Divine. As everybody lives the same cycle of lives, we all are the One in a different point in time. Justice is absolute because the unfortunate life will be followed by the fortunate life. As we are One, making One Journey, nobody is sold short by Life.

And: we cannot fuck anything up!
Good, we poison the river, that's fixed. But we protest poisoning the river and stop poisoning the river, thats also fixed. And one day, infinitely repeated, the river will be crystal clean again exactly like before we poisoned it.
Everything is a dance of energies that goes round and round.

Cycles in cycles in cycles. I call my cosmology "The Omnicyclic Universe" because everything consists of cycles within cycles in finally one huge cycle which encompasses the anything and all. :heart:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3574352 - 01/03/05 06:02 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

to consider that everything is predetermined is a bit cynical
you also have the choice to be cynical or not.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3574480 - 01/03/05 08:16 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

no no i actually see wiccans point.... but yes theres always a but, if one has no choice and is on the roller coaster till the carny says stop. then the carny controls when and how long the ride ride right? so who's the carny in "the omnicyclic universe" the omnicyclic universe itself? and with your belief system if one chose to follow it too, like say a serial rapist....is he to only defend his actions by stating that he had no choice in the matter and neither did the women..? they were just riding on the same coaster...? and that NOTHING could've stopped it from happening.??

also i think your theory makes it very easy to play the victim or never take blame for the actions you may have caused..(whether you had a choice or not) it's just how it is! was and is gunna be! great post though!

oh, so what you're sayin' is that that even if i did wake up with the "hankerin'" to end it all i couldn't....unless it was what is to be.???


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

Edited by uriahchase (01/03/05 08:19 AM)

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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3574521 - 01/03/05 08:48 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hah! i just raed a good quote that Gomp posted: something like " The important thing is to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could be. "

Charles DuBois

well,..yet another point of veiw.... so, what im kinda hinting around about i guess is...if when one dies it's NOT just curtains, and the show does go on...why not skip the credits on this show and start the next one? (besides that we have no choice) in the omnicyclic universe...!! i Do really like what you've dubbed it! it sounds nice!


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3574530 - 01/03/05 08:54 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

say a serial rapist....is he to only defend his actions by stating that he had no choice in the matter and neither did the women..? they were just riding on the same coaster...? and that NOTHING could've stopped it from happening.??




In the same line of defense the boyfriend of the raped lady had no choice but to cut off the rapist's sac with a pair of blunt kidsafe plastic scissors. :shocked:


You forget that in my cosmology no freedom from natures rules exist. one can argue it was out of their hands but it's also out of the hands of the judge to convict him via laws nobody had control over too.

Quote:

why not skip the credits on this show and start the next one?



Ah but you can't skip!  Skipping deliberately is a freedom-of-choice thing!

Laws of Nature interact, we are just macromolecules in a cosmic chemical laboratory, which interact predictably if you know all the variables. And concidering everything is interconnected you have to know everything to know anything. So we're all just theorising!


Suppose you turn on your TV and the thing won't work.

SPIRITUAL people will look for hidden meaning
PHILOSOPHICAL people will argue the cosmic logic that a finite number of dollars can only buy an appliance of finite dependability
PRAGMATIC people will call the TV repairman
SCIENTIFIC people screw the damn thing open and discover a dust particle has arc-welded a resistor contact to a capacitor.

But none will see the Smurfs episode they wanted to :grin:


The example you gave: "using the fixed universe as an excuse" does not hold. You only CAN offer an excuse if you got freedom of choice but you only WILL do so if it is pre-determined.. and even then it is fixed if you will actually get away with it.

For concensus-reality's sake I go along with the nearly universal notion we have freedom of choice, but only to not alienate myself further from the milkman who doesn't want a confrontation with the ramifications of Quasar collisions on the fabric of time & space on his 6 AM round through the neighborhood:evil:

Seriously: everyone does something so freaky they can overwhelm others with the BS lingo that comes with it. ("I recommend you wait with inserting a 999 silver until 12 weeks after the Prince Albert" :wink:)
I believe in a fixed, 100% predestined universe but I live with "freedom of choice" until offered a place where such theories are understood and moreover appreciated, such as here :thumbup:

I believe we have consciousness only. We are aware we do things and we are aware why we think we do things. OBSERVER ONLY.

The Omnicyclic Universe as a whole contains and IS everything, the All Encompassing One. As it houses all life, it has Total Consciousness and is the Master of Time and Space which is part of it's body.
You might call that a God if you want. :heart:


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3575140 - 01/03/05 01:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

SO, basicaly sit back relax and enjoy the ride! if thats what has already been chosen for you to do.....
      Don't you feel a little empty and sad?...i do now. thinkin' that i just had great sex about 25 min ago, and it had nothing to do with my power-stroke!!? it just was to be! which i don't mind....but i'd like to take some credit for the experiance! :grin: :thumbup:

    basicaly there is no reason not to kill oneself..really.~ it just wouldn't make any difference,..because it was to be..even if one beleives that they are ending it short...they are not. it's all prdestined and already been made known. ~lazy belief system yet i still like the whole outta the box thought that you have been predestined to have.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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OfflineDroz
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3575195 - 01/03/05 02:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What we don't remember and always forget as that we chose to live this life. We are all reincarnated in a soul that lives it's life out on earth. Now to look beyond that is to pear at what the nature has created for us to live. To pear through another external dimension and live. When we die our energy only returns to it's resting place. We can choose that when we die as well. Or we can choose to return back to the earth for another life. When we feel we have not succeeded in this life. Once you find your path in life and find out exactly what you want to do, life it up to the fullest. Become a director, become an astronaut, become a hippy. If you are tired of living day by day working doing this and doing that. Become a hippy, or don't label yourself as one, people label you let me remind you. Grow your own food, sit in the stillness of life and meditate. Use the mushrooms to seek higher develepment of the soul(encapsilated spirit). Or leave your soul and live life in a higher dimension full of spiritual powers. Learn more about spirituality and learn that you must first live this life in order to find out how you want to live in the next.

People also believe that there is a higher order of how things work in this galaxy you could always come back a slave. If that life is how you end up you make it to the fullest, you fight the ignorance till the day you die and spend time trying to show people a spiritual existance.


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Evolution of Time.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3575791 - 01/03/05 05:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

basicaly there is no reason not to kill oneself..really.




You're still approaching it from the choice side of things. Stuff...happens. There is no reason. There are things happening inside and outside you but there is no way to add any choice to that.

You're of infinite importance. With you out of the loop the universe was out of balance... because living or dead you are supposed to be a possibility. If something *truely* vanished the universe would come to an end. But it can't: it's a closed system. So yoiu are infinitely valuable.

Your part in that great sex you speak so fonsdly of was destined to be your part :laugh: A billion years ago it was clear that nookie was going to happen. :tongue2:

Quote:

lazy belief system




I think 99/100 people have not put as much energy into their belief system as I did. It encompasses far more then you can grasp in a mere few hours. It's far larger then i told.

"lazy belief system".. wow. In my first post I actually talked of the first mistake of the sitting-down-on-your-ass universe and you keep making that mistake. It really IS very different, people have a hard time to grasp the idea of being pure consciousness.
It took me an awful long time.. and it is wonderful!

Suppose you made a VCR tape of someone eating an apple. If you see it in reverse that person produces the apple from his mouth. That is JUST AS MUCH THE UNIVERSE as the usual way we see things, only the time flows in the opposite direction.

If you let all time flow into one you would find everything is everywhere and there you are, in a point of infinite density, a Black Hole, where matter is static and all that flows is a strand of time chiseling out the situation from the anything & all by the laws that permeate everything...
Call that lazy :wink:


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3575965 - 01/03/05 05:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

in every moment you do have choice (to have choice).
it is a matter of posture or the attitude you can pose.
You enjoy far more dignity if you take an attitude with choice.
Also you get much better results.
The fatalistic approach is flawed, like plugging in the wrong wire in a synthesizer. the voltage controlled amplifier wants signal but accepts voltage for amplitude (only), jam raw voltage into the signal slot and you get nothing (it does no harm but no good either). Same with fatalism, it is too dry to control anything and too weak to entertain (as signal) - i would walk from that.
I vote for choice, and it is a dignified thing to put into your attitude every moment of your life.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3576234 - 01/03/05 06:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

                                                                                WOW!.. a great sense of humor too??    :shocked: :thumbup: :jester:    "In the same line of defense the boyfriend of the raped lady had no choice but to cut off the rapist's sac with a pair of blunt kidsafe plastic scissors."

~~~~~yup i knew that I DID have something to do with the graet sex!!~~~~~~ predestined or not it was nice! -sorry.  uh-HEM...shit dude...i see it may take me a while to dissprove with logic (hopefully) your omnicyclic universe theory..(which i've turned a few others on to) you've given this a great amount of thought.
from you Wiccan: in less than 6-7 words (un-educated white trash vocab if you can) tell me what purpose is there for me(anyone) to not end life?

    *note*--for those who might think tooo much, im not like a manic depressive nor do i hold thoughts of suicide. don't worry.~ just like to discuss things...about stuff.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3576292 - 01/03/05 07:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

there is no purpose to end life

as there is no purpose to sustain it

no purpose at all, unless you manifest purpose into your experience

and in that case, purpose is a perceptual phenomenon with no actual 'external roots' in 'reality'

but then we wind up with the concept of consciousness - perception - creating existence. like the tree falling in a forest analogy. logically, determinism seems fine and dandy, and I once fully supported it. however, things are changing (and yet they stay the same).

the concept of choice itself is flawed (think about the concept of choice mentally without language - and you will see there is always only ONE 'choice', and yet we are infinitely FREE.)

otherwise, too much variance in the form of semantics

does not compute!1 :smile:


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3578159 - 01/04/05 02:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Before we can approach this question, we need to understand the tremendous influence of karma on our experiences and on each passing life. In fact, it is our karma which makes up every facet of our experience, and which determines the circumstances into which we are born and those under which we will die.

For there to be a relationship between organism and environment, there needs to be a causal continuum that sustains the two in symbiosis. Without a symbiotic relationship between organism and environment, there is no condition for conciousness at all. Since there is conciousness, it follows that there is a sustaining condition for conciousness, and a causal continuum sustaining conciousness. This causal continuum is called the karmic continuum.

Karma is a special instance of cause and effect whereby our actions are the cause and our experiences are the effect. Every aspect of our experience is the result of our past actions, and each of those actions we engage in now will determine our future experiences.

Since the sustaining condition for conciousness obviously exceeds that of a single life-span, it's reasonable to conclude that in fact our own karmic continuum is subject to more than one incarnation as a physical being possessing physical form.

That was some very brief background. I hope it is adequate.

When considering the idea of entering nirvana, it's not appropriate to conceive of it as though there were some guardian to Nirvana's gate watching our actions, waiting for us to "get it right" so that he can let us in on the secret and sneak us into eternal bliss when nobody is looking.

Nirvana is a state of supreme bliss. Since supreme bliss is an experiential state, if we are accepting the laws of karma we must also accept that it is an experiential state generated as an effect of a cause: our own actions. Those actions which make us miserable are considered negative actions, or "bad karma", and those actions which bring us closer to nirvana are considered positive actions, or "good karma." When we engage in many positive actions, we create positive potentialities within our mind which will manifest as positive experiences. When there are no more negative potentialities within our mental continuum, that is to say, no more potential for the experience of suffering, suffering ceases and we enter into a liberated state.

Considering this, it would be totally senseless to murder ourself and "get on with it". Given that we've had so many lives as so many different creatures engaging in so many positive and negative actions, our death means that we migh be reborn in far less fortunate circumstances than those we are in now. We might lose the opportunity to engage in positive actions altogether. We might condemn ourselves to aeons and aeons of suffering and disatisfaction before finally hearing again that there is a means of escape.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3578348 - 01/04/05 05:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan: in less than 6-7 words tell me what purpose is there for anyone to not end life?




Seven words, sorry, can't, but let me try to prune it to it's essence.


you can't do it if you're not destined to do it
it gets you nowhere but back in the womb again
the cause "suicide" will inevitably have an effect later on


Suicide in some rare cases can be justified objectively but in that way it falls under euthanasia.




The medical science brought my mother in a condition where only the machines were keeping her dead body functioning and trapped her spirit in a lifeless body amidst asphyxiated flesh.

As someone had to do it I had to give permission to raise her morphine and midazolam and decrease the added oxygen to the ambient 21% so she would die.

That was passive euthanasia and I gave my permission on the condition a syringe with 500mg morphine was to be equipped with a needle and put in the room with us, so that if they managed to botch her peaceful death as well, that I could actively end what they were legally unable to. A nurse brought the syringe but fortunately she peacefully slipped out of life without active intervention.
7 march 1940 - 4 July 2003 R.I.P

On the morning of 27 december 2002 I woke up in the midst of a heart attack. Intensive Care Unit. Near Death Experience. Sleep Deprivation Delirium. And now I start and end the day with a handful of heart drugs knowing full well that every second of the day or night the Divine Sledgehammer may pound me on my chest, so I cannot take my nitro, and the Damocles Sword of the proximity of DEATH hangs over my head ever since. You can argue we may all die at any given time, but if you look at it from a completely unpredictable inoperable genetic heart condition that'll ram you with a fullblown myocardial infarction it is not quite the same thing.


So I've got a pretty well-defined idea about death.
Suicidal people who actually commit an attempt are pretty rare. Those who succeed even rarer. I am convinced that the Universe only takes those who's life truely was over, and puts them in their next life.

In the case of my mother, who's preventive surgery was botched which was her cause of death.. She was a chronic pain patient and was chronically depressed in her last months and saw no purpose in life. Her only highlights was the poppyhead- and marijuana tea I made for her on sundays because she wanted to know the pleasures I indulged in.

We later found out that if she had survived the surgery, if the surgeon did not botch it, she would've needed a colostomy bag (unnatural defacation through an opening in the tummy), her already frail body would have been put in the wheelchair, her limbs were asphyxiated and perhaps had to be amputated, she would need another surgery, we found out she was in the early stages of Alzheimer's Dementia and all the while she would be the clinically depressed pain patient she was before the surgery.

I believed in predestination before, but this rare failure of surgery has in fact made her die like she was in dignity, instead of being subjected to several months or years of a deteriorating life thatr held nothing but mounting agony for her.
As I pieced it together her life had come to an end and the surgeon's mistake was predestined to take her life when it was her time.
The Laws of Nature, or God, had said: "No More." and made the surgeon fail the operation but in fact save her from months or years of incomprehensible agony.


So to end this tale of my mother's death and my own imminent death and come back on topic:

A voluntary end of life in some cases in my view can be argued to be justified, but I believe that in all cases death was brought about, that person's time had come.
In my mother's case it was plain to see for most why it likely was the last dignified moment for her to die, and that one may argue her time had come.

I believe for myself that the Divine Sledgehammer of heart-attack will smite me on the very second my life has come to completion, and none sooner or later.

If it is today my relatives & friends will argue it was before my time. If you cancel out the Answers provided by the Death Experience and would allow me to speak from my coffin I would likely say the same and in fact bitterly complain why the fuck this has had to happen to me and what happened to that damn cosmic justice and so forth.

But I believe that death will only come when your time has come, and birth will only come when time has come, and that everything in between on either side happens like clockwork in a clockwork universe.

That is not fatalistic because it fills me with the joy that there is in fact a Divine Plan, a Purpose, and that this is ABSOLUTE, and nothing can deviate or be led astray from their part in the grand scheme of things no matter what they do.

If a hydrogen bomb exploded above my head, and the roof is smacked down on me at 700 miles per second, I would've died in a Universe of Perfect Justice where all is renewed into Infinity.
That is not convenient wishful thinking of a cardiac patient but the point where my science side and my spirituality side got together and hugged, many years ago.


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3582125 - 01/04/05 11:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

uriahchase why haven't you killed yourself yet?

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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3583022 - 01/05/05 05:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

honestlty?........i enjoy living and no matter what lessons ive learned or what "roller coaster" im on at the moment....i think that theres more to learn, and that i can get off a paticular ride whenever I WANT TO. life may enevitably lead to death and then to life again.....who knows? i figure as long as i can still wipe my own ass, feed myself, see my penis(instead of belly), and people still enjoy my company,..life ain't that bad right NOW.....this ride is chill..for NOW.
and the sex is good!!!


and yes.....im not soo strongly rooted in any beleif of afterlife, that i could ever find the courage to kill myself.


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: uriahchase]
    #3583076 - 01/05/05 06:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

im not soo strongly rooted in any beleif of afterlife, that i could ever find the courage to kill myself.




You gotta realize that suicide indeed takes courage, but it is the bitter courage of desperation, the choice to blow all you have in the hopes you are better off.
There is no way we can be certain if this in fact will be so.

I think you now are in a hard time of your life and look fearfully that maybe some day you will lose things that keep you going.

This is where Spirituality and Philosophy come in.
Even if your body allows no external joys in this world your mind and spirit need not be unhappy. The fact that you LIVE in Auschwitz does not prohibit you from falling in love, and in fact many inmates of these dire hellholes found love which was to last their lifetimes.

And when your circumstances take a turn for the worse you will in time find other things to live for. The human nature is such that if you are at least neutral in your Spir & Phil you will always find things worth living. Even if you see those soul-tearing images of African kids, bellies swollen round with hunger edema, limbs like matchsticks, nothing around but hut sand, a merciless sun and the flies who grew from the bodies of those that didn't make it, even those wretched kids often can be seen to genuinely smile.

A big thing to realize is that happiness is RELATIVE TO YOUR GROUND STATE.

If you're a happy marathon athlete and get plunged in a wheelchair, you will go through a phase of severe unhappiness. When your mind & spirit accept that this is your new ground state, you will develop happiness again which can be every bit as high as that of the marathon runner you once were.

Spirituality in happy times is nice. But it gets proven when Life gets rough.

Imagine that you stand at the Pearly Gates, saint Peter looks in the big book, staggers back against the Gates and gasps: "MAN! did you actually ride that one out?!"
It's a silly image but life is full of challenges and if you believe in freedom of choice it's about how you choose to deal with that despite the odds :thumbup:


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #3583256 - 01/05/05 07:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

wiccan
sometimes I think what you say is dogmatically expressed:
as if you are pointing at things as if outside of the self,
and seeming to apply them to everyone,
but really these are features of your personal
landscape.

from that vantage point I can learn from what you say


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3583339 - 01/05/05 08:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks, RedGreenVines!

Like everyone, I have nothing more to offer then my own personal opinion and experiences. Highly subjective. I don't believe a human can ever attain true objectiveness.

In my universe, if I state: "This is how it is!" it can only mean "this is what I'm convinced of".

There is only one absoluteness, and that's ( <--- see me do it again!) the Cosmos in it's entirety. The rest is nothing but ( <---and again!) subjective.

Even my strongest truth is 99% certain to me at most. In my view there are only degrees of certainty.

"It is very likely that the stance of Physics is correct"
After having their point of view overturned several times in the past 5.000 years true physics has abandoned "Absolute Truth" for "High Probability" and that set the "Religion of Logic" apart from the other Religions. Because even in Science you are nothing but a believer in what can be an "overwhelming likelyness" at most.

It is still fully possible that one day an apple will fall upwards off a tree and land on the moon. We know we have not yet uncovered the entire fabric of the universe, so cannot predict all circumstances, and the time we spent observing the falling of apples spans but a few thousand years in the sea of time that is our universe.

Thus I conclude that we know nothing and assume every statement to be subjective. Don't be put off if I say "this is how it is" because I can omnly spean from my world outward.


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Re: Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth? [Re: Asante]
    #10252312 - 04/28/09 09:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

sorry to revive this old thread, but i was searching for something and Wiccan's beliefs struck a chord with me because it is almost identical to my own belief. I've never really had anyone else come to my same conclusion of Everything as Wiccan has.

in short, at some point in my life I realized that my consciousness always has been and always will be. I realized that it is going through an eternal set of possible experiences that will continue forever and ever. I realized that there is no you...only myself, because I (my consciouness)am you, experiencing your exact life as you are living it now on a different plane, simultaneous to the one I am experiencing now, as well as simultaneous to every other living organism. I have realized the perfection of everything... I, consciousness, god, (not my human form) has found away to exhaust eternity without realizing it...and I remembered it in this current life

the beauty of it is our consciousness is designed  to not 'remember' the last life, and not worry about your next. Just be here, now. Enjoy the entity and personality you currently are because you may only get to be them once, for all of eternity.

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