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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3486241 -

MovingTarget said:
It doesnt make sense to me, the only reason the marbles will roll towards the bigger marbles on this blanket is because theres already gravity pulling the bigger marble down into the blanket,



I have not heard that analogy before, and when he said it, everything made sense.....then you knocked it out of the ballpark. I will keep reading the thread before i make an ass of myself.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: tak]
    #3486264 -

I wish I was smarter and knew how this all worked. Why are all little objects in the universe not moving towards the larger ones?


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3486319 -

Alan Stone said:
Quote:
See the post above by hendostan.



I'm saying the marble wouldn't be influenced by the dent unless there were gravity to make it adhere to the blanket in the first place. It would just continue on at the same height it was before it reached the rim of the dent. Likewise, the dent wouldn't be produced without gravity.

Regardless of the underlying studies, I think it's a rather ill-conceived analogy. It doesn't explain gravity without using gravity, which is circular logic. What's more, if those dents are in 4D, a blanket with a 3D object on it doesn't really cut it for comparison purposes.

I'm still interested in the theory though. If those dents in space-time exist, what causes them? And how are they dents, into which dimension? If it works anything like the blanket-marble example (in which the 2D blanket is dented into a third dimension), the dents would have to be in a fourth spatial dimension, right?



:thumbup:


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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: Gomp]
    #3486368 -

Mass has no bearing, really, on the fact of whether something is going to "gravitate", because it has mass, the gravitational force is acting on the mass, to "attract" it to a body.

THings will fall at the same rate in a vaccum, regardless of their mass, because their is no air resistence, there is no differentiation on whether it will hit first. This more or less can show how the forces acting on these bodies is the same.

The gravitational force is determined a large part by the mass of an object.

There are equations which derive this force by using the radius and weight of the earth, along with what has been discovered as a "universal gravitational constant".

Once the gravitational force is derived for the specific body, it is then multiplied by the mass to formulate the weight of an object.  This would then be measured in newtons. Imagine that :wink:

BEcause of air resistance, different sized objects will hit the ground at different times because of their density and relative surface area which cause the objects to either speed up or slow down as it encounters friction with other particles.

This is why in a vaccum, without any other particles, they will fall at the same rate. I hope that can help a little bit.

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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3486566 -

"Mass has no bearing, really, on the fact of whether something is going to "gravitate", because it has mass, the gravitational force is acting on the mass, to "attract" it to a body."

Zero: wrong. Essentially, The gravitational force is nothing but mass. It only seems that way on earth because compared to the earth, a boulder and a marble are nearly the same mass.

The force of gravity is equal to (GMm)/r^2

G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of one object, m is the mass of another object, r is the distance between the two. If gravity was not dependent on mass, Mars would have a greater gravitational pull on us than the sun, because it is closer to us. The reason we orbit the sun is because of its enormous mass.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by oceansize (12/12/04 02:21 PM)

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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3486609 -

Quote:
I'm saying the marble wouldn't be influenced by the dent unless there were gravity to make it adhere to the blanket in the first place. It would just continue on at the same height it was before it reached the rim of the dent. Likewise, the dent wouldn't be produced without gravity.
Regardless of the underlying studies, I think it's a rather ill-conceived analogy. It doesn't explain gravity without using gravity, which is circular logic. What's more, if those dents are in 4D, a blanket with a 3D object on it doesn't really cut it for comparison purposes.
I'm still interested in the theory though. If those dents in space-time exist, what causes them? And how are they dents, into which dimension? If it works anything like the blanket-marble example (in which the 2D blanket is dented into a third dimension), the dents would have to be in a fourth spatial dimension, right? 



I guess I should clear up my analogy.  The dents are not caused by gravity, they are an inherent characteristic of the universe, they CAUSE gravity.  When you think about this analogy, forget about what you know about 'gravity'.  The marbles stick to the blanket because everything is 'stuck' to the fabric of spacetime. The dents are in all four dimentions.

Don't try to stretch it literally to 4 dimentions, the point of the analogy is it makes the theory of gravity simple enough to understand.  Research it yourself if you don;t understand, but it is what you will be taught in any physics course.

As for what causes the dents, there is plenty of speculation, but we don't truly know.  I think this question is a little like 'what causes the universe?"  :grin:


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: oceansize]
    #3487051 -

Thanks for the clarification.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: oceansize]
    #3487056 -

Maybe i shoudl have re phrased my sentence to say "the mass of an object, such as a ball, compared to that of a boulder, has no bearing on the RATE at which an object falls within a system."

I didnt think your blanket analogy worked for the type of Question GOMP asked. HE thought that vacuum's made the idea of gravity worthless.... this was my understanding anyway... Thats why i said what i did above.

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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3487110 -

The truth is no one knows why gravity is the way it is, only what it does.

Dark matter is thought to play a very important role in holding our galaxies together and stopping them from dispersing. Yet no one really knows anyting about dark matter as its so hard to pin down. It cant be contained as it just passes through mass as if through water, and it cant be seen as it neither emits nor reflects light.

Could it be that this dark matter is God?


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Re: Gravity is fault logic, it a messup whit vacuum? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3487145 -

Quote:
  Maybe i shoudl have re phrased my sentence to say "the mass of an object, such as a ball, compared to that of a boulder, has no bearing on the RATE at which an object falls within a system."



This is where you are wrong.  That boulder is falling faster, but not noticably.  A greater mass will cause a stronger force.  If the boulder was another earth, the force would be much much stronger.  As I said, (GMm)/r^2 equals gravity, if that small m is different, the rate of falling on a planet will be different.

Quote:
I didnt think your blanket analogy worked for the type of Question GOMP asked. HE thought that vacuum's made the idea of gravity worthless.... this was my understanding anyway... Thats why i said what i did above.



I wasn't replying directly to Gomp, but to another post, but anyway I thought he was asking through what mechanism gravity works through a vacuum.  Sorry if i didn't help you any Gomp!  :grin:


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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