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Shop: North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3430906 -

At least those with a positive mind-set will have a happier final two years than those who had a negative mind-set.

What is the alternative, Swami? I'm curious. I think we probably can all agree that thinking over and over again "I'm going to be cured of cancer by my positive thoughts" isn't going to cure one of cancer.

However, by saying that positive thoughts don't increase the life span of one with cancer, are you saying that one shouldn't have positive thoughts at all?

What does one do? Sit around and wait to die? Make a will? Play Russian roulette?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3431463 -

Medical science also acknowledges that keeping in good spirits makes one more resiliant and responsive to treatment for such an illness.

I think it's important to remember that what medicine has discovered is that reducing stress is what seems to help, not improving disposition.

Subtle distinction, but an important one.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Diploid]
    #3432603 -

Auto-Summary
Placebos and belief have significant effects on both emotional and physical states, as demonstrated by numerous controlled scientific experiments. The power of placebos can be seen in various treatments, such as cancer, pain, and colds, where patients often experience improvements due to their belief in the treatment's efficacy. Placebos can also have negative effects, as shown by stories of shamans and witch doctors causing illness or death through curses. The placebo effect is a powerful demonstration of the strength of suggestion and can be observed in various research situations, even when not intended. Belief and suggestion play crucial roles in the effectiveness of placebos, and they can impact various aspects of human health and well-being.

belief effects emotional states dramatically

Belief effects physical states dramatically

the idea that mental states or belief cannot effect real physical and physiological conditions (FAR beyond stress or tension) is undeniably disproven by numerous controlled scientific experiments.

"Group A: 95 out of 100 people who get a certain type of cancer and bitch and moan about it die within two years of diagnosis.

Group B: 95 out of 100 people who get a certain type of cancer AND do daily positive health affirmations and visualizations die within two years of diagnosis."


what exactly is the value of hypothetical statistics? there is none. any arrgument can be supported by fabricated situations (hypothetical if you please) but actual studies and statistics like those cited in the following articles are somewhat more convincing.



Read up

1, "Placebos are putatively inactive substances tested in controlled studies for comparison with presumed active drugs or prescribed for relief of symptoms or to meet a patient's demands.

A placebo may be any therapeutic maneuver, including surgical and psychologic techniques, or medication in any form (eg, oral, parenteral, topical; this discussion is limited to drugs. The term placebo harks back to the 116th Psalm in the Hebrew Bible. Through a number of translation errors, the Vulgate (Latin) version came to contain the word "placebo" (I shall please). Over the centuries, the term was applied to the Vespers for the Dead, derisively to servile flatterers and toadies, and to laments sung at funerals by professional mourners In 1785, the word placebo first appeared in a medical dictionary as "a commonplace method or medicine." Two editions later, the placebo had become a "make-believe medicine. Allegedly inert and harmless. We now know that placebos may have profound effects, both good and bad.

The Binary Nature of Placebo Effects: The medical literature is replete with reports on the power of the placebo to help patients with anxiety, tension, melancholia, schizophrenia, pain of all sorts, headaches, cough, insomnia, seasickness, chronic bronchitis, the common cold, arthritis, peptic ulcer, hypertension, nausea, senile dementia, etc. But the placebo is not only able to help, it has also been associated with side effects including nausea headache, dizziness, sleepiness, insomnia, fatigue, depression, numbness, hallucinations, itching, vomiting, tremor, tachycardia, diarrhea, pallor, rashes, hives, ataxia, and edema, to name a few. This remarkable list of subjective and objective changes, both desirable and unwanted becomes more understandable and is put into perspective once one recognizes that the main component of the placebo effect is the anticipation (usually optimistic) of results because of the expectations associated with medication One can call this "suggestibility", "faith," or "hope,"


and:

A recent paper (Roberts et al. 1993) concluded that "under conditions of heightened expectations, the power of nonspecific effects (placebos) far exceeds that commonly reported in the literature."

The paper, "The Power of Nonspecific Effects in Healing," is fascinating. The authors analyzed data for treatments that met the following criteria:

(a) strong positive reports by at least two groups of investigators;
(b) at least one well-controlled negative report;
(c) the treatment had been abandoned as ineffective; and
(d) data from a major portion of the positive studies were presented in a manner that permitted reliable classification into categories of excellent, good, or poor outcomes.
The treatments that were studied included: glomectomy (the surgical removal of a small, normal mass of tissue called the carotid body that is found on the carotid artery) for the treatment of asthma; levamisole (an immunomodulatory drug) for the treatment of Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV); organic solvents (ethyl ether and chloroform), also for HSV; and gastric freezing for duodenal ulcers. In all the cases the doctors and the patients expected the treatments to work. The results for all the positive studies combined showed an excellent or good outcome in 69.8 percent of the almost seven thousand cases studied. These results led to the conclusion that a treatment outcome "is always due to some interactive combination of specific and nonspecific effects."
Research also illustrates how difficult it is to separate valid treatments from apparently valid ones. In other words, we're never without some level of nonspecific effects.

A number of other myths are associated with placebos. Try to answer the following questions:

Does a positive response to a placebo mean the patient's problem is imaginary?
Does a patient have to believe in the therapy for a placebo effect to occur?
Are placebos harmless?

The answer to all three questions is no. Placebo responses can occur in patients with real disorders; the subjective symptoms can resolve while the objective ones remain. Belief in the treatment only appears to explain a portion of the placebo effect (Jarvis 1990). It appears that belief, operant conditioning, and suggestibility all play important roles. In an interesting experiment, a man experienced pain and exhibited marked depression of a specific part of his heartbeat while being monitored by an electrocardiogram (ECG) machine during a treadmill diagnostic test. This occurred at a treadmill setting of 44. For a second test, when the treadmill number was miscounted so that the patient exercised less, he exhibited the same pain and ECG depression as at the setting of 44 (Jarvis 1990). This dramatically demonstrates the power of suggestion .






placebo 1. A substance with no medicinal properties which causes a patient to improve because of his belief in its efficacy. 2. (Experimental) A substance administered to a control group in an experiment in which the experimental group receives a drug in order to eliminate the effect of the act of administering the drug.

Wolman, Dictionary
of Behavioral Science

Could a little bit of sugar keep you from catching colds, cure a skin disease, or even make a cancer disappear? Make you drunk? All of these (and much, much more) have been reported as "placebo" effects in the scientific literature. In fact, there is hardly any human characteristic or problem that has not been shown to be affected by placebos in one research or other.

A placebo, as used in research, is an inactive substance or procedure used as a control in an experiment. A placebo effect occurs when the placebo, which cannot on its own merit have any affect,
does in fact have the same or similar affect as the experimental substance or procedure.

For example, consider the body of research that has been conducted on human response times as affected by alcohol. Subjects are given measured doses of alcohol at certain time intervals and their responses are tested following each "drink." But to make sure nothing else is causing any of the changes that may occur, it is necessary to have a "control" group. This is a group of subjects for whom everything is identical except one thing: in this case, they get no alcohol. They are treated the same way and they are given a beverage which they believe to be alcohol under the same conditions and with the same schedule.

In other words you take a group of subjects and do the same thing for all of them, except half of the group (unbeknown to anyone except the researchers) get a non-alcoholic beverage.

As you might expect, those subjects who receive alcohol begin, at some point, to show a change in their responses. And of course given enough of the alcoholic beverage many of them get plastered.

What you might find surprising, though, if you are not familiar with this research, is that some of the placebo-drinking subjects; those receiving shots of a liquid prepared to taste and kick like alcohol, but which in fact is basically just water acted tipsy and sometimes even drunk. These subjects for whom the suggestion of drinking alcohol produced inebriated-like behavior were exhibiting a placebo effect.

Placebo effects are of particular interest to us here because they are another phenomenon that illustrates the strength of suggestion. These placebo effects frequently demonstrate a potency of suggestion which we normally think of as residing only in drugs.

The placebo effect has been reported in just about every research situation in which placebos were used, and in many circumstances where the use of placebos was not intended but the effect was the same anyway.

As in situations where saline solution (simple salt water) injections stop the pain in patients who believe they are receiving a potent pain killer. Simple salt and water have no analgesic or anesthetic qualities, yet the subjects' minds responded and controlled the pain just as if they had received a narcotic or other potent pain killer.

Or subjects who catch fewer colds because they believe they are receiving huge doses of vitamin C, when in fact they are getting only small amounts of powdered sugar. When the research ends and they no longer receive the placebo, the number of colds caught has been shown to go back up.

For some people warts may prove resistant to every conventional treatment, but then promptly go away when the patients are told to apply "this new and amazingly potent drug" which is nothing more than hand cream. (Indeed, skin conditions of all sorts have proved to be extremely responsive to suggestions.)







References
Barrett, S. 1977. Health frauds and quackery. FDA Consumer 11:12-17.
Beecher, H. K. 1955. The powerful placebo. JADA 159:1602-1606.
Bourne, H. 1991. Unrecognized therapeutic measures, including placebo. In Clinical Pharmacology, ed. by K. L. Melmon and H. F. Morrelli. New York: Macmillan.
Jarvis, W. T. 1990. Dubious dentistry: A dental continuing education course. Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, Calif.
Roberts, A. H., D. G. Kewman, L. Mercier, and M. Hovell. 1993. The power of nonspecific effects in healing: Implications for psychosocial and biological treatments. Clinical Psychology Review 13:375-391.





"under conditions of heightened expectations, the power of nonspecific effects (placebos) far exceeds that commonly reported in the literature."

this is a simple and tested explanation for the efficacy of numerous forms of faith healing. Even the ancient shamans utilized this. By building a situation of total faith in the healer or shaman, then performing a convincing ritual of some kind, the healer causes the supplicant to heal himself with his own faith.

a placebo can also have a negative effect. Hence the stories of shamans and witch doctors who can cause people to become sick or die with a curse. Just as healing placebos administerd by a trusted doctor or shaman can heal, a curse laid by a highly feared witch could actually make you very sick.

As mentioned above, people can become addicted to sugar pills.

its all in the mind people


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Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (12/01/04 02:20 PM)

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Frog]
    #3432630 -

However, by saying that positive thoughts don't increase the life span of one with cancer, are you saying that one shouldn't have positive thoughts at all?

Why the need to read more into what I said than what I said?

Not to Frog: I find the usual irony in that many of those who propose "Being in the Moment" fail to see how this is contradictary to "projecting the future".

There are three basic mindsets:

1. Oh shit, I am going to die!

2. I can beat this thing. I know I can!

3. I do not know what the outcome will be, but I am alive now.

2 & 3 are light-years apart. 1 & 2 are similar in that they are both projections.

Edited by Swami (12/01/04 02:35 PM)

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
    #3432658 -

just a reminder:

"The medical literature is replete with reports on the power of the placebo to help patients with anxiety, tension, melancholia, schizophrenia, pain of all sorts, headaches, cough, insomnia, seasickness, chronic bronchitis, the common cold, arthritis, peptic ulcer, hypertension, nausea, senile dementia, etc"

remember that the force that causes these amazing effects with placebos is the very same one that gives power to affirmations, faith healing, and non medical healing of all kinds.

Belief


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
    #3432660 -

swami is right. appreciation should lie in the moment rather than in combat towards worry of the future.

positive/negative are all the same. just be and be and be then not be. and while you be, be happy, and when you are not be, be not nonhappy, as nothing is being. or something confusing like that.

swami's views on these matters are often misinterpretted methinks. your last post shone through the confusion :smile:


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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3432665 -

what exactly is the value of hypothetical statistics? there is none.

This is primarily a philosophic discussion not a medical one. The whole point was, if those statistics WERE valid then a specific conclusion MUST be drawn. It is not open to interpretation. Yet this is repeatedly done here in countless areas of discussion.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Diploid]
    #3432667 -

I think it's important to remember that what medicine has discovered is that reducing stress is what seems to help, not improving disposition.

Exactly.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
    #3432673 -

lol.

:rolleyes:



Levitation: Summation

Contrary to popular belief, levitation works .

(hypothetical)

3 out of 4 people can easily levitate in the air by chanting hanny nanny poo poo

hey, it WOULD be true, if my statistics came from somewhere other than my ass!

but thats a philosophical discussion, not a medical one (and we wouldnt want that at S & P!)


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Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (12/01/04 02:35 PM)

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3432804 -

Perhaps you missed the Chris Reeve thread: Affirmation did not work; yet it worked. This is the infamous double-speak in the face of facts.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
    #3433144 -

No one EVER has that third mindset in a terminal situation. They either give up or try to fight. This usually depends on their age, cultural upbringing and disposition.
I don't think Christopher Reeves was using affirmation in the way you suggest. I think that he was truly expecting a breakthrough technology to cure him...and he was not off by much as this very thing has been accomplished in South Korea, this week, with stem cell technology. This invalidates the argument of your Reeve thread. His dream was a possible solution that lie just around the corner.
Now, there is no possible way to argue that having a "neutral" (yeah right) attitude is better than or equal to maintaining a positive attitude. By taking a stance based on a generalization you have started a battle that you logically cannot win. You have even made concessions since you started the Reeve thread...but your back is to the wall and you can give no more in defending this indefensible position. In an argument based on a generalization there is little room for give which is why it is considered bad debate technique. If you had added "Under many circumstances" to your thesis you might have a point, but at this stage there is no way at all you can show how a neutral or bad attitude is just as conducive to health as a good one.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3433371 -

it honestly amazes me. He will say something, you will argue, he will nitpick, dodge and weave... finally youll corner him and disprove what he says. then he'll ignore you, go silent and disapear for a week or so. then he'll come back and say the exact same thing in another thread.

logic? sources? examples? make it long and complex or short and simple, you will NEVER hear this man say maybe your right...

ill summarize it all now once and for all

1. positive mindset and belief is good for your emotions and quality of life
2. positive mindset and belief is a far more beneficial stance than negative mindset and despair
3. Trying and getting somewhere is better than not trying and getting no where
4. belief is fully capable of incurring significant physiological changes , treating all kinds of conditions etc totally independent from any active physical agent.

and

5. hypothetical statistics are meaningless
6. hypothetical situations do not constitute proof of anything

and

7. just because something doesnt work for christopher reeve, or any other individual, doesnt mean it doesnt work at all.


if i understand your point to be that positive thinking is useless, you are absolutely wrong.

if on the other hand your point is that thought and belief alone, without physical action/intervention, has no effect on physiology, your absolutely wrong.

if your point is that because chris reid couldnt recover from paralysis means affirmations or positive thinking doesnt work, your absolutely wrong.

If you think everything is black and white, and someones inability to FULLY recover from something means that their technique didnt help at all, your absolutely wrong.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3433428 -

I think Swami is trying to nail someone down saying that positive thought can effect an "occult" type change on it's own independant of any action whatsoever. The flaw is that no magic, in the traditional sense, is needed. The effects of attitude on health are well known by the medical establishment and they have been acknowledged there for quite some time. In order to form a viable hypothesis he needs to qualify his assertions.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3433480 -

"No one EVER has that third mindset in a terminal situation. They either give up or try to fight."

Agreed. There is no neutral with pancreatic cancer. I watched someone close to me fight the pain and finality of this disease, and it's a roller coaster for all involved. It's hard to think of the pain and discomfort they endured to fight to live another day. Still, their positive spirit, toughness and fight certainly added quality and probably quantity to their life. Some people just really don't want to die, so they live in spite of the circumstances. Even if that's an extra month, week, day or hour, they hang on.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3433524 -

I have a good friend who's wife had cancer of the brain and nervous system. Her goal was to live to see their daughter graduate from a prestigious ivy league college(can't remember the one). She lived in agony for 2 years in the advanced stages of cancer with 1 remission and within a week of attending the graduation (I understand it was quite an ordeal for her) she died in her sleep.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3433665 -

Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
I think Swami is trying to nail someone down saying that positive thought can effect an "occult" type change on it's own independant of any action whatsoever. The flaw is that no magic, in the traditional sense, is needed. The effects of attitude on health are well known by the medical establishment and they have been acknowledged there for quite some time. In order to form a viable hypothesis he needs to qualify his assertions.




If he is, don't you think it all started with people loosley or generally talking about it and he or others he saw, misinterpreted it to mean Zero action is applied? If you think more positively, your actions change and you make different choices then you would from a negative place. The action is often an indirect result.

Attitude is like your rutter in life. If you change it, you set off on a different course.

Anyway, I've talked about this stuff a lot in the past and I will say, my sister can sit in her home all she wants affirming Mr. Right will come knocking on her door. If she doesn't DO something, to get traffic coming into her home, or get herself outside of it, Mr. Right or even wrong, she will not meet.

I'm thinking this topic has just been really misunderstood, ,misrepresented, missaplied, and misinterpreted by any who thinks it's phluey.

Of course swami says, "well, no duh if you take action things will happen, where's the magic and mystery."

There isn't any other then realising, new thoughts create new reactions and actions that create the potential for new experiences and open awareness to opportunties one in a negative frame would be oblivious too.

I'm about to order pizza. What do you guys like on yours?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/01/04 06:22 PM)

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3433735 -

"A study of four thousand residents of Alameda County, California, over a nine-year period showed that those with more social support and intimate relationships were more optimistic overall, had lower death rates overall, and fewer instances of cancer."

"Another study at the University of Nebraska School of Medicine of several hundred elderly people found that those with an intimate relationship had better immune function and lower cholesterol levels."

"Another study of three thousand heart disease patients at Duke University Medical Center found that those who lacked a spouse or close confidant were on average less hopeful for their longevity, and three times more likely to die within five years of the diagnosis of heart disease as those who reported that they derrive emotional strength from their loved ones."

"Over the course of the past several years there have been at least a half-dozen massive investigations conducted by a number of different researches looking at the relationships between intimacy, a person's emotional state, and health. After interviewing thousands of people, the various investigators all seem to have reached the same conclusion: close relationships promote a stronger sense of well being, and in turn, physical health."

Quotes from Psychology and Health by Dr. Howard C. Cutler, M.D.


People with more positive states of mind are in general more healthy people. People with negative states of mind are in general less healthy people. In general, people who practice positive thinking inhabit a more positive state of mind than those who do not practice positive thinking. Therefore, people who practice positive thinking are more likely to be healthy than those who do not practice positive thinking.

There is a relationship between mental health and physical health. A person's state of mind impacts their overall state of physical wellbeing. While not reversing the diesase, in cases of terminal illness a person's positive state of mind may increase their longevity.

Do you disagree that there is a relationship between mental health and physical health, Swami? Please explain why.

Do you disagree that person's with terminal illnesses are able to potentially increase their longevity by maintaining a positive attitude, Swami? Please explain why.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3433832 -

They either give up or try to fight.

Either way, the white blood cells do what they can to control the growth. Fortunately, they have their own programming to follow.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Ped]
    #3433947 -

"Another study at the University of Nebraska School of Medicine of several hundred elderly people found that those with an intimate relationship had better immune function and lower cholesterol levels."

Two basic needs are being met here; sex/affection and companionship. Others not having those needs met may have different ways of coping - perhaps excessive drinking and STRESS. Sexual activity is a form of muscular and hormonal exercise that is beneficial to the body. We don't know ANYTHING of the mindstate of these people or those without an intimate relationship. I fail to see your point here.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
    #3434653 -

That programming can be affected by the patient's mood. This is fact. I have had Emergency Medical Technician training as a firefighter and extensive emergency response training. It was hammered into us that being hopeful and keeping the patients spirits up is important in life threatening illnesses and situations. The people who trained me were experts in this field. Everything I have learned about survival and medical treatment, which consumed 14 years of my life, points to mood being a factor in medical and survival emergencies. It is NOT the only factor...but it is a big one.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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