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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Affirmations: Summation 
#3429025 - 11/30/04 05:18 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hypothetical:
Group A: 95 out of 100 people who get a certain type of cancer and bitch and moan about it die within two years of diagnosis.
Group B: 95 out of 100 people who get a certain type of cancer AND do daily positive health affirmations and visualizations die within two years of diagnosis.
Therefore: (according to "spiritual" types) Affirmation works! 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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 JacquesCousteau
Being.
 
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
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 Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3429070 - 11/30/04 05:25 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Depends on how you define "works".. if "works" means that it makes you live longer, than no--it does not work.
If by "works" you mean that those in group B spend their last two years with a sense of positivity and better spirits than those in group A, then yes--it does work.
But I figure you probably mean the first one, so I'll just paddle off now...
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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As NO ONE on these boards to my knowledge disavows the fact that we can affect our internal mental state by choosing certain thoughts or patterns, then there is no need to discuss that aspect.
What IS brought up frequently is that we can affect MUCH more than our emotional state merely by using thoughts. I contend that ONLY through interaction with "real" objects are we able to affect those objects.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Posts: 7,825
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3429106 - 11/30/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry, didn't mean to steer the thread off course... or whatever it was that I did...
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3429114 - 11/30/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Positive thought can affect one's PHYSICAL state. Medical science has readily acknowledges this.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3429170 - 11/30/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Positive thought can affect one's PHYSICAL state. Medical science has readily acknowledges this.
Thought can affect what thought has created. One can reduce stress-related (though-created) tension. Nothing too special about that.
Thought does not affect pancreatic cancer, liver disease or pathogen-related (viral/bacterial) illnesses; ONLY self-created illness.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3429177 - 11/30/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
ONLY self-created illness.
That is true... but a lot of people suffer from what they don't know is self-created illness, so it's still viable to seek it as a solution to physical problems at times.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3429189 - 11/30/04 06:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thought can affect what thought has created. One can reduce stress-related (though-created) tension. Nothing too special about that.
Then shouldn't positive-thought ALWAYS be encouraged for medical conditions?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: trendal]
#3429202 - 11/30/04 06:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
Then shouldn't positive-thought ALWAYS be encouraged for medical conditions?
Especially considering how hard it is for most to differentiate between what is thought-created and what is not...
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: trendal]
#3429229 - 11/30/04 06:06 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Thought does not affect pancreatic cancer, liver disease or pathogen-related (viral/bacterial) illnesses"
Wrong. Medical science also acknowledges that keeping in good spirits makes one more resiliant and responsive to treatment for such an illness. It has also been shown that a poor attitude tends to make a person more apt to contract an illness. The FIRST rule of survival is "Maintain a positive mental attitude". This was taught to me in the Army of all places.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3429362 - 11/30/04 06:29 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Even the MOST forward thinking proponent of positive thinking would be loathe to take the "Swami Deadly Pathogen Injection" Challenge. "Nuff said.
Editors note: The studies Hue mentions are those in which one can suppress their own immune system using negative emotions/thoughts. He then jumps to the unsubstantiated inference that a positive state would do more than a neutral state.
Most of these "healings" are a subtler form of the old "It feels so good when I stop jabbing the ice pick in my hand" scenario. You create it; you stop it! Amazing!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3429409 - 11/30/04 06:40 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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So because positive-thought cannot outright cure every disease known to man, there is no point in using it at all?
Gimme a break, swami 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: trendal]
#3429579 - 11/30/04 07:31 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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"He then jumps to the unsubstantiated inference that a positive state would do more than a neutral state."
Doctors encourage patients to keep a positive outlook...why? I will allow that a positive outlook is NOT a cure for a disease, but it is a definite part of any treatment.
Check this out:
From: Carnegie Mellon University
Positive outlook, sense of self-control can predict new coronary events, says Carnegie Mellon study
PITTSBURGH -- Angioplasty patients who handle their recovery with a positive attitude are less likely to have a second coronary event, according to a new study by a Carnegie Mellon University researcher.
The study, directed by Psychology Professor Vicki Helgeson, appears in the August issue of the journal Psychosomatic Medicine. It is the first to examine the positive psychological variables that might affect new coronary events among angioplasty patients.
The study shows that patients who scored low on measures of self-esteem, optimism and feelings of control over their lives were two and a half times more likely to experience a second coronary event.
"Our work demonstrates that people who respond to a first coronary event by establishing a sense of control over their health, restoring damaged self-esteem and developing a positive outlook, may reduce their risk of a subsequent coronary event," Helgeson said. "This is one of the few studies to show that someone's psychological state may affect the occurrence of new coronary events that are likely caused by restenosis."
Now I am substantiated.
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1999/A/199900987.html
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (11/30/04 07:38 PM)
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: trendal]
#3429601 - 11/30/04 07:39 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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a negative outlook can create negative consequences; a positive outlook does not create positive consequences, but you do avoid the negative.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Mushmonkey]
#3429614 - 11/30/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I would rather a patient overshoot and have a positive outlook than try to remain perfectly neutral, though
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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entiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 1,043
Loc: miami, florida
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3430133 - 11/30/04 09:39 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can't use hypothetical situations to state statistics... And if you did, these 2 groups of people would be independent of each other, and each member would be affected differently.
You are being shortsighted about the benefits of affirmation. Nobody is saying that repeating the mantra "I will overcome cancer" will cure you of cancer. But if you decide to lead a positive lifestyle, trying to beat the disease, thinking that it is possible for you to beat the disease, because it IS possible, it has been done, you will be doing more to beat cancer.
i think it would be interesting to have the insight of somebody with cancer.
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/opinion
.sean
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3430182 - 11/30/04 09:51 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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The study shows that patients who scored low on measures of self-esteem, optimism and feelings of control ...
Scoring low is not a neutral position. They are beating themselves up and then they stop. Reread my post.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: entiformatie]
#3430191 - 11/30/04 09:54 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think it would be interesting to have the insight of somebody with cancer
As the cancer patients that died will be unable to post, the respondent group will ALL think their recovery to be miraculous. This is the same as any lottery winner.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: entiformatie]
#3430218 - 11/30/04 10:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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my dad had cancer
now, i haven't talked to him about it.. we're just not like that. however, i'm fairly sure his mindset was just to beat it. that, and he's mighty stubborn.. i can't think of a time he's ever quit anything out of desperation. He came pretty close to the 'incurable' stage of things -- basically the only reason they caught it was extensive testing, and the only reason he got the testing done was because he had hurt his back at work.. went in for physical therapy.. continued getting worse.. eventually, wound up having a few vertebrae collapse.. they did blood work, the marker proteins for cancer were absent.. continued getting worse, more tests, then they found it. Talk about round-about fortune -- had he not a job involving physical labor, and had he not hurt himself worse at physical therapy.. anyway
it's odd, and i'm not sure if the rest of my family's picked up on it.. and it might just be because i was away at college.. but he seems a bit more light-hearted since the whole cancer thing. Maybe I'm just noticing it more.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Affirmations: Summation [Re: Swami]
#3430224 - 11/30/04 10:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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You think potentially terminally ill people have a neutral disposition? I don't think so. Normal healthy people usually tend towards one direction or the other. To be totally neutral you would have to really not care about yourself one way or the other...think about that. A true neutral disposition is something I doubt exists. Also, you are painting yourself into a corner here. You admit now that a positive outlook has an effect and that so does a negative outlook. To jump to judging a neutral outlook is an untenable position due to the above mentioned. There are degrees of positive and negative...but neutral????? No way.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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