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Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineunsui888
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Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? * 1
    #21947689 - 07/15/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So I keep revisiting this idea known as "neutral monism". There seem to be about as many different versions of neutral monism as there are actual neutral monists. Essentially, neutral monism is a type of non-eliminativist reductionism, which states that neither the mental nor physical are ontologically basic and can both be reduced to some "thing" more ontologically fundamental that is neutral. So we cannot eliminate the physical or mental because they are both real (non-eliminativist), but they can be reduced into some "thing" more fundamentally basic (reductionist). The idea is that nothing is intrinsically physical or mental, rather whether some "thing" is physical or mental depends on the relevant context (i.e., on the functional inter-relations of the more basic neutral "stuff").

Here's a quote by Ernst Mach that probably describes it better than I: "Thus the great gulf between physical and psychological research persists only when we acquiesce in our habitual stereotyped conceptions. A color is a physical object as soon as we consider its dependence, for instance, upon its luminous source, upon other colors, upon temperatures, upon spaces, and so forth. When we consider, however, its dependence upon the retina…it is a psychological object, a sensation. Not the subject matter, but the direction of investigation, is different in the two domains."

And perhaps this "neutrality" can best be described by William James: "The instant field of the present is at all times what I call the ‘pure’ experience. It is only virtually or potentially either object or subject as yet. For the time being, it is plain, unqualified actuality, or existence, a simple that." To be more specific, perhaps this neutrality or "pure experience" is essentially information. Information is the basic ontological neutral stuff from which everything (physical and mental) emerges in accordance with the inter-relations of specific information.

If everything is fundamentally information, and information is computable, would it follow that everything in the universe is essentially computable and could likely be a simulation?

These are just underdeveloped thoughts that I've had pop up repeatedly over the past year or so... perhaps you guys can help me flesh them out more!?


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool


Edited by unsui888 (07/15/15 04:41 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21947888 - 07/15/15 03:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Very interesting post.  I think you would be interested in looking into the relationship between quantum nonlocality and information (which forms the basis of quantum information theory), and also the holographic principle, which is very serious physics stipulating that the cosmos is constituted by a hologram projected from the boundary of spacetime as we know it.  (This was derived from some of the mathematics on black holes).  Furthermore, you might be interested in de Broglie-Bohm mechanics, and especially the philosophy of the explicate and implicate orders which grew out of it.  All of this ties together in a very deep and subtle way.

Personally, while I would not call myself a "neutral monist," I agree that the physical and the mental both arise out of a ground that is common to both.  Much as space and time, mass and energy, and indeed all of the fundamental forces arise out of a common ground more fundamental than each of them. 

I tend to disagree with the 'reductionist' part, as I do not see this fundamental level being reduced to quantized units in the way that photons are, for instance.  I definitely agree that information is intimately tied to this more basic state, insofar as we are able to relate to it.


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Offlineunsui888
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21948306 - 07/15/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you for all the recommendations! Looks like I got some reading to do! :thumbup:

Also, I would like to note that rather than focusing on substance, perhaps we should be focusing on processes (reminiscent of Whitehead's "process philosophy"). The physical and mental are not different substances, but information can be thought of as processes, and depending on the relation of these processes, we can characterize the "neutral" information (processes) as either mental or physical. So depending on the level of abstraction we wish to explain certain information, the information can be either physical or mental.


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21949040 - 07/15/15 07:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Indeed, everything in nature is composed of processes, and everything is related by interaction.


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Offlineunsui888
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21949303 - 07/15/15 08:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If this is true, then does it follow that nothing is inherently meaningful? ...meaning arises from the certain interactions of different interrelating processes...


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21949546 - 07/15/15 09:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think so, at least my personal take on it is that meaning unfolds all the time, and even builds on itself -- in a meaningful way (not to be tautological).  I have even wondered whether in the future there might not be a science of meaning, perhaps as an offshoot of psychology.  Granted, we would have to understand intelligence quite a bit better than at present for such a thing to be possible.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21949579 - 07/15/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Nice thread.

"Neutral" seems like stepping back from an analogue...(?)

But what is neutral about information? :nyan:


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Offlineunsui888
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: Kurt]
    #21951802 - 07/16/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmmm, not sure how I see meaning always unfolding. I could definitely see a science of meaning in the future - "neuromeaning"! :lol:

and Kurt, what do you mean by "stepping back from an analogue"?

I have been wondering what is neutral about information as well... when I, personally, think of information, I do not see it as physical, mental, or anything other than just information, or numbers/code, which to me seems pretty neutral...


--------------------
"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21953019 - 07/16/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I am throwing in the towel. Time to get out of the cave.

Thanks for the inspirations...


Edited by Kurt (07/17/15 01:49 AM)


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Offlineunsui888
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: Kurt]
    #21963068 - 07/19/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

...?


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21963226 - 07/19/15 01:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Hey unsui, I had written an in depth response to your post on my own version of "monism". What I wrote turned out to be my own personal lesson that I ultimately felt it was better to acknowledge. I'd say you can think a lot about this stuff. There is language, mind and body, and then matter and form to possibly unravel. However good you are at navigating thoughts, there is what you are doing as a practice, whatever it is. I guess I realized I wasn't paying enough attention to that. Monism? I'd say it's in balance.


Edited by Kurt (07/19/15 01:37 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Neutral Monism, Information, Simulation? [Re: unsui888]
    #21967793 - 07/19/15 10:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps when I finish reading Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation I could offer a perception of my own on "the desert of the real."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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