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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3262047 -

While such a 'coincidence' is extremely extremely extremely improbable, if the machine spit out infinite amounts of, in this case, infinitely long numbers (assuming there is no pattern to pi), then this would eventually occur.

You're wrong.

Study Set Theory.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Diploid]
    #3262090 -

Yes, and that's absolutely correct.

Set theory refers to the differing functions or 'types' of 'infinities' right?

While I do not claim to know anything about set theory, I think the disagreement here is merely semantics.

My use of infinity is that which is not only everything in our sense of the word (as we are finite beings) but rather ___________ (I find words hard to describe the underlining principle of 'infinity'). It is far beyond logic and our understanding, and I do not claim to experience it on any level or to know it's true "power".

Sure, mathematics uses the term 'infinity' to describe many different things.

Like how there's infinite values between 6 and 7 exclusively, infinite values between 7 and 8, and yet also infinite values between 6 and 8. The infinite I reference to is one of infinite values within infinite dimensions of infinite.... infinite... infinite.... everything. This is the only true sense of the word to me, as clearly the other infinite terms have limits in place, something that, while there may be infinite values, means that it is not "the infinity".

I probably made no sense whatsoever, but whatever :smile:

Don't forget that math derived by human logic is not necessarily absolute. While I realize I have no proof for such an 'infinity', it is my understanding that this nature is present as the universe, but I could be wrong :smile:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3262105 -

Wll Deff

"Of course, what we know as 'infinity' is only a concept developed by our 'finite' logic"

Or is the 'finite' our brains way of dealing with the 'infinate' always available to us?

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3262132 -

Well, if you subscribe to a geometrically structured universe (see my thread) when you reach that wall, you end up going right back into it. Like a level in mario where when you reach the end of the screen, you suddenly appear on the opposite side entering the screen.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3262155 -

"Or is the 'finite' our brains way of dealing with the 'infinate' always available to us?"

Very true :smile:

However, it is unknowable (to me anyways) which it is at this point.

Infinite is available to us in that the universe surrounding us is infinite in my view, however, as fragments of this infinite it is hard to say if we too are infinite in nature and are hiding it behind 'finite' logic.

Very good point though :smile:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Diploid]
    #3262171 -

EDIT: Sorry, repost!



Edited by TheShroomHermit (10/21/04 08:22 PM)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3262294 -

This is neat stuff guys...!  I need an asparin, but thats cool too...  :laugh:


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3262323 -

So In either mario or asteroids you hit that wall and you pop up on the other side. That folded around as if it were a sphere is our universe. I think if that were true then the universe must have a way to travel faster through it then straight through it (think 2d to 3d; its no different then 3 dimensions to 4 dimensions, we just cant percieve the latter) and thus also is circular in nature. One can conclude if this were the case thier is an infinite regress into a larger and larger system. This system was necisarily be an infinite number of dimensions by the definition of it (or thier are 83 of them, man this shit is boggiling).


P.S. These are not my random thoughts, Scientific America tried to explain that infinite dimension doughnut thing to me once, these are just my random thoughts extrapolating on Scientific America.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3262777 -

Dreamer987 said:
Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?
Think about it. Its not even fathomable that there is an end to it.

But they have found things that lead to theories of how the universe will end. This is unproven in either direction but one popular theory is that the universe has had several "big bangs" where the universe spreads out to the point that it collapses on it's self. This would be a result of black holes concentrating all the matter to the point that nothing can escape their reach and eventually it's all sucked up back in to one tiny dot. Then repeat. Our galaxy in fact is anchored by a black hole that's sucking stuff in every day. Eventually it will be consumed entirely.
Quote:
Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives.

We have torn things down to the tiniest level, proving that there are things that are tiny beyond belief. A lot of these things live the shortest life spans in the world to us, but I'm sure to them it's relative. Think of a tumor growing. Is that not a living organism? A tumor probably sees it's lifespan as we see ours, but with less cognitive thought.
Quote:

So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds.

Thats what i believe. I was trying to explain all this to an old friend of mine, who is very "level headed" and believes that since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.
I was like "well i believe that there is a planet made out of marshmellows somewher"
this pissed him off so much he wouldn't talk to me about philosophy, and religeous beliefs anymore.

also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so. Theres probly some sourt of reancarnation cycle.
those are just my beliefs...

Our very essence is most likely from Nebulas across the galaxy, therefor meaning we are made of the stars. These nebulas are what release nearly all the ingredients for life in the universe.


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You've raped! I feel dirty
It hurt! As a child
Tied down! That's a good boy
And fucked! Your own child
I scream! No one hears me
It hurt! I'm not a liar
My God! Saw you watching
Mommy why?! Your own child -Korn

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Tripster]
    #3263030 -

I think we as Westerners have big problem as we are taught to view the world in very discrete, finite, and conceptual terms. We just can't fathom that time is without beginiing or end, that the universe is infinite, and that nothing exists discretely or indendently as it does in our minds.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3263276 -

Speaking in purely scientific terms--if the universe were infinite, matter would have to be infinite, for it is seriously doubtful for an infinite space, there's an almost imperceptibly finite amount of matter. But if this were so, everything would wind down to a single point in the universe eventually--the gravity of everything around you would rip you to pieces, because it would be an INFINITE amount of gravity, no matter how small, infinity * .1 is still infinity.

Kinda hard to explain...heh.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: DjYoshi]
    #3263296 -

See quantum mechanics and the holographic universe theory.
In quantum mechanics everything that can happen does happen at once, and in the holographic universe theory there is no space or matter either, everything is one point and only gains space, time and substantiality through the human brain.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3263367 -

"everything is one point and only gains space, time and substantiality through the human brain."

so therefore when there were people for say firts 5 billion years there was no space time or substance?

so how come i can dig up diamonds that are billions of years old or dinosaur bones only a couple of hundred million.

i dont know a hell of a lot about quantum mechanics but im pretty sure that it says quite a lot of stuff since its the "new improved & expanded" physics but im not sure it says that everything happens at once. quantum mechanics is hard science just like newtonian physics and is based on observation and mathematical calculation, and i dont know that theres anything in reality that suggest or proves what you say. hence the word "theory"

Edited by kbilly (10/22/04 12:58 AM)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3263673 -

Quote:
Another good analogy I've read involves those old school space-shooter games. The ones where you could only "fly" up, down, back or forth across the screen (a 2-dimensional space). When you get to one edge of the screen, you appear on the opposite edge. This space is actually shaped like a donut, with the "universe" being only the skin of the donut. You get this by taking the screen and imagine it's a flat piece of rubber. Since we know the top and bottom of the screen are "connected" we can glue the top and bottom of the rubber sheet together - to make a tube. We also know that the sides are connected, so you bend one end of the tube around and glue it to the other end. A donut.



Ah ha! Oldskool games! something I'm well versed in.
In some of them, you could fly off the map into netherlands. You could just keep going.. and going.. and going. you'd not see anything, because the developers did not add anything out there, however the game would let you continue seeing the automatically generated scenery forever.
You can go.. and go.. and go.. and continually increase the 'size' of the map. It's really only as large as the developers made it, but as you extend yourself outside those dimensions is 'grows' to accomodate both their world, and yourself. You don't loop back, but you don't get anywhere.

Which is kind of close. The size of our universe at any given time is only as large as the furthest-thrown bits of matter and energy are.
That's not really right, though, because they exist within something else. It's a hell of a lot easier to grasp than trying to understand 26 dimensions and the math behind it, though. It hurts the head. I usually give up, spark a bowl, and go watch Spongebob.

Because seriously, I'm big enough to admit to myself that this shit's way, way out of my league. I'm a fan of math and science, but this sort of thing makes me whimper. Just imagine me as a bear on a tricycle. I'll go along with it, sure, but I'll be damned if I've really got any idea what's really going on.


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3265843 -

The universe is still expanding and as such, is finite not infinite. Only GOD is infinite. If one were to travel at the 'speed of thought,' and attempt to 'penetrate' the expanding 'wall' of the 'edge,' some 12-20 billion light years across, one would have one's direct 'line' of approach curve one way or another along the curvature of space.

The 'wall' so-to-speak, expands into GOD, so-to-speak. According to Kabbalistic thought, GOD 'contracted' His/Her infinitude - a point of the Infinite Being, the size of a singularity came to form an infinitesimal Void. Into this Void the Ideas in the Mind of GOD became manifest - first as the 'Big Bang' 10 to the minus 43 seconds from NOW, then as a progressive expansion, cooling, condensation and evolution of space-time. The Cosmology in my view derives from a Theology. Physics derives from Metaphysics [prior-to-physics]. This is intuitive, descriptive and clearly not scientific, but perhaps more accurate for moderns than Mythology (Biblical or otherwise).

The bounded universe cannot be 'penetrated' physically to arrive in the Infinite which envelopes it. On the other hand, Infinity stretches ever inward as well (the Infinitely small and the Infinitely large are both Infinity and the qualifiers lose their meanings entirely. Large and small are relative terms but Infinity is always Infinity). A 'warp speed' physical vehicle will not break through some barrier into Infinity, into GOD. Even Einstein's assertion that to attain the speed of light is to attain "infinite mass," means that a measured body essentially 'becomes one with the universe,' but the universe is not GOD. Then again, the creation, expansion and collapse of the universe might occur eternally in an 'oscillating universe' theory. Hindus believe this cosmology, so here the limitless is not a matter of 'extension' but a matter of 'eternal return.' And here we are, in the Eternal present, trying to 'explain' Eternity and Infinity with our finite minds. How silly.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3265876 -

No, our observation of the universe (a tiny fragment) appears to be expanding.

This does not mean that it could not be infinite in more dimensions, or just that infinite matter (galaxies) is expanding from solitary points within an infinite space, and that our observation of this is only relative to our position within this infinite universe.

Universe implies the one encompassing all of everything. If god = infinite, so too does the universe (if there is an actual distinction between the two).

I understand your take on this, but some confusion arises when you use the term universe, then state that something exists outside and around it. Also, don't be so sure that science's accepted theory of an expanding universe is actually true, when instead it could be an expanding isolated area of matter within still an infinite encompassing universe.

Really though, we are all agnostic with this :wink:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3265937 -

I appreciate the reply and I certainly do not 'Know' the shape or form of the universe, but I DO NOT believe that creation is identical with the Creator. The creation is 'run through' with the Divine Immanence (PanENtheism], but form is not commensurate with Transcendence. The Transcendent is Known only to the Transcendent. We can Know the Immanent, the Small Countanence, the Infinite in the finite. The universe as 'surrounded' by GOD is not meant to be a spatial reality. I believe that the universe exists in GOD as our dreams exist in our minds. As dream stuff is unreal relative to our waking life, our waking life and universe is unreal relative to Eternal GOD. No matter how 'old' a mountain appears to a fleeting human ego, the entire geological age of planet Earth is fleeting before the Eternal GOD.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3266088 -

deff, we have observed quite a LARGE section of the Unvierse to date. The age of the Universe is probably around 13.7 billion years right now. The last I read, the FARTHEST any telescope has looked is a cluster of stars about 13.2 billion light-years away from us. Those star clusters were some of the FIRST stars to exist in the Universe, about 470 million years after "Creation".

Also: we have not found any evidence, from ANY source, that the Laws of Physics behave differently in different parts of the Universe. The very idea that this COULD be true seems counter-intuitive to me: if all the Universe came from a single "point" 13.7 billion years ago...why would some parts of this "point" contain different physical laws than others?

Everything we look at insists that the laws of physics are steady throughout the universe.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3266146 -

how lovely
the Infinite in the finite, enternity in a grain of sand.
just look and you will see.
how lucky we are:)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: kbilly]
    #3268457 -

WHO CARES WHAT THE SCIENTIFIC UNIVERSE IS. I grew up believing the universe is that which encompases everything. But now that the universe expands, contracts, ENDS I must say I will now use my old universe definition for the words the cosmos (which I consider infintite).

Even if the universe ends it must end into something else in the cosmos. This something else....----
----I am not gonna type this until I can ask gnostic a question? what do you mean by god, is it a being, a more far eastern interpretation that everything 'IS', etc.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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