Home | Community | Message Board


Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
the infinite wheel
    #3820718 - 02/23/05 03:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

(disclaimer: I use the words 'infinite' and 'infinitely' way to much below)

picture a wheel, rotating on an axis. you with me so far? the outside always moves faster than the inside, even though it travels the same amount of degrees. There's an imaginery point, right in the very centre of the wheel, which isn't moving at all, but which is still rotating. yes?

how much faster the outside moves than the inside is a function of how long the wheel's spokes are. er whatever. the spokes magnify motion from the centre.

Now imagine a wheel whose spokes are infinitely long. if the centre moves at all, even infinitesimally, the outer edge of the wheel (which lies infinity leagues away) will be moving at an infinite speed. this is because the motion at the centre of the wheel is infinitely magnified.

So, my question is, does the centre of the wheel actually have to move at all for the outside to move? remember, the centre only has to move infinitesimally and the outside moves infinitely fast. so is there a difference between 'infinitely small' and 'zero'? (something that is 'infinitely small' is still something, of course, but I'm not sure about that actally, because it's not just really really small, it's 'infinitely small'.)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblepupil
( ?)

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 69
Loc: in prism
Re: the infinite wheel [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3820763 - 02/23/05 03:17 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i would like to answer you, but i am too mezmorized by your infinite wheel...


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3820795 - 02/23/05 03:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing wrong with INFiNiTEE, no matter how many times you use it....  :wink:

I think the BIGGER question *might* be....: 
Would there be an infinitely possible way to not have that wheel move at any given point in time....? 
Perhaps imperturbable....?    :ooo: 

Anything is possible, right....?  Is anything impossible....?  Or perhaps just unplausible....?!?

What a silently impinging infinite pinnacle-axis of impetus motionlessness....  :what:

Perhaps infinitely is  perpetual, or perhaps that is implied....?    :shiftyeyes:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: the infinite wheel [Re: pupil]
    #3820806 - 02/23/05 03:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pupil said:
i would like to answer you, but i am too mezmorized by your infinite wheel...




Pupil, FOCUS....  :eek:

You didn't look at the possibilities....  Eye had to dilate my I's a bit for this one....  :eyeball: :eyeball:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,674
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3820820 - 02/23/05 03:44 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

big wheels bend like galaxies and pinwheels

these huge arrangements seemingly go on forever and have black holes at their centers which do something unspeakable to matter

imagination can barely stretch around all the phenomena. but you done a good start


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3820841 - 02/23/05 03:58 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hee Hee, if I am right about my "theory" on black holes, the unspeakable malicious and senseless destruction of matter is thru removing that vacuum of space within matter itself....    Only one way that I can see doing that....    :grin:

OOoops, I didn't mean to take this off topic....!    :tongue:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3820891 - 02/23/05 04:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Zekebomb,  Do you mind if we make this wheel model a lil more mobile or more flexible and less 2-D - FLAT....?

For the "axis" of rotation will turn from a 2-D linear axis to limitless but infinitely finite focal POINT....  1-D...?    :what: 

Perhaps a door to the 4th dimension is possible by creating a rift within a 1st dimension point in space....?

That seems lame, no...?  A  1-Dimensional axis...?    Hhhhhmmmm....  That is how it works for gyroscopes, right....?  :ooo:


******************************************************
Zeke, you know, we *should* take these new ideas back to the Lunar Hilton Escape and test out a few SpiNNerZ~ fo~ sho~....  Some sort of gyroscopic (e)motional forces are (un)bound to spin out of control....!    :lol:  I got dibs on the front desk receptionist, she is wheely wheely cool....    :tongue:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3821283 - 02/23/05 10:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

so is there a difference between 'infinitely small' and 'zero'?




Personally I think yes - because 'infinitely small' is not zero. Zero means absolutely no movement whatsoever. Complete and utter stillnes. Zero movement.

'infinitely small' may be so small that it defies our measurement with the tools at our disposal....we might take it for zero....but it is not. There is movement.

Quote:

big wheels bend like galaxies and pinwheels




The outside edge is held back by physics from keeping up with the inside revolution. whirlpool stylee. Is that even vaguely right?

Is infinity thus inhibited?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrazyBusiness
Stranger thanyou think
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 136
Loc: Under the stairs.
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: CJay]
    #3821301 - 02/23/05 10:34 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The simple answer is yes, there has to be some motion, even if it is infinitely small, as zero times infinity, is of course zero.

Beyond a certain length, though, as CJay mentioned, the theory becomes pretty shaky due to physical limitations.


--------------------
...in my opinion

Life's too short, man.. Life's too short. Dont hate me, and I wont put space between us. Dont lie to me, and I wont dislike you. Keep an open mind, and I'll love you.

My advice of the week(do this, you'll like it): listen to Mahogany Rush.

Representing Beatiful British Columbian classic dank. Just think, Columbia for coke, British Columbia for buds. truth


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: CrazyBusiness]
    #3821314 - 02/23/05 10:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Im quite sure that infinite is beyond intellectual comprehension. Although i could be wrong. If so could someone please convey to me the infinte, i would be most pleased if someone could do so adequately.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrazyBusiness
Stranger thanyou think
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 136
Loc: Under the stairs.
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: Sinbad]
    #3821393 - 02/23/05 11:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im quite sure that infinite is beyond intellectual comprehension. Although i could be wrong. If so could someone please convey to me the infinte, i would be most pleased if someone could do so adequately.




Everything we know in our lives, including our lives, and our knowledge of them, has a limit. In being the absence of such limits, infinity is the opposite of everything we know, so I wont pretend I can harness the true meaning of infinity.

However, one could argue that is a definition in itself. Though I can not percieve it with any understanding, I may have expressed its meaning in stating its opposite.


--------------------
...in my opinion

Life's too short, man.. Life's too short. Dont hate me, and I wont put space between us. Dont lie to me, and I wont dislike you. Keep an open mind, and I'll love you.

My advice of the week(do this, you'll like it): listen to Mahogany Rush.

Representing Beatiful British Columbian classic dank. Just think, Columbia for coke, British Columbia for buds. truth


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: CrazyBusiness]
    #3821508 - 02/23/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

zero times infinity, is of course zero.


funny thing about that seemingly simple equation...

infinity x 0 = 0, however
0 divided by 0 does NOT = infinity

most equations you can reverse, such as 2x3=6 / 6dividedby3=2. but not any equation which involves infinity.

besides, as far as I know the jury's pretty much out on zero times infinity. since infinity is SOO vast, the answer might be more than zero.

Beyond a certain length, though, as CJay mentioned, the theory becomes pretty shaky due to physical limitations.


what, are you saying it might be hard to build a wheel with infinitely long spokes?? remember, this is a thought experiment


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrazyBusiness
Stranger thanyou think
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 136
Loc: Under the stairs.
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3821537 - 02/23/05 11:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

funny thing about that seemingly simple equation...

infinity x 0 = 0, however
0 divided by 0 does NOT = infinity

most equations you can reverse, such as 2x3=6 / 6dividedby3=2. but not any equation which involves infinity.

besides, as far as I know the jury's pretty much out on zero times infinity. since infinity is SOO vast, the answer might be more than zero.


As vast as that infinity is, there are zero infinities, therefore the size of one is irrelevant, it does not exist.

what, are you saying it might be hard to build a wheel with infinitely long spokes?? remember, this is a thought experiment

Yes, I remember, and I think that the principle of thought you based the idea on does not apply at these ranges, though I also answered as if it did, to entertain the thought.


--------------------
...in my opinion

Life's too short, man.. Life's too short. Dont hate me, and I wont put space between us. Dont lie to me, and I wont dislike you. Keep an open mind, and I'll love you.

My advice of the week(do this, you'll like it): listen to Mahogany Rush.

Representing Beatiful British Columbian classic dank. Just think, Columbia for coke, British Columbia for buds. truth


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: InFiNiTEE [Re: Sinbad]
    #3821557 - 02/23/05 11:56 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Im quite sure that infinite is beyond intellectual comprehension.

good point sinbad, especially since the title of this thread is "let's get infinity sorted out once and for all"... er wait no it isn't.

CB: As vast as that infinity is, there are zero infinities, therefore the size of one is irrelevant, it does not exist.


that's true. but what about the non-reversableness of the equation? I dunno... for some reason the idea of zero cancelling out infinity has never sat well with me. I get the feeling that zero is in a way the opposite of infinity (in a more completely opposite way than 5 is opposite of -5), and therefore equations featuring both are pretty dodgy.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: InFiNiTEE in Stillness of Motion Infinitely Unbound in Bondage.... [Re: CrazyBusiness]
    #3821626 - 02/23/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CrazyBusiness said:
The simple answer is yes, there has to be some motion, even if it is infinitely small, as zero times infinity, is of course zero.

Beyond a certain length, though, as CJay mentioned, the theory becomes pretty shaky due to physical limitations.




Besides physical limitations (which *might* be overcome), and thinking more theoretical, if you did have an infinite wheel, you could apply zero to it in a way that would leave the structure intact (as to share Infinite WITH Zero), but also prohibit all movement (until it formed a black-hole and collapsed in upon itself)....

Infinate (in size and structure) X ZERO (in tempurature - on a Kelvin scale) would make ALL motion stop - in theory.... Even down to the very atomic structure of the susbstance contained within the wheel....

The question is, what is the wheel made out of....? If it is made out of pure light or a scientific Force like gravity or magnetical forces, what effects would Zero Kelvin actually have upon it....?

Everything is Nothing, Theoretically....?

Zero X Infinite = 0 X -0 = Infinite....?

(I wonder how "phi" would fit in here....)


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinea_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: InFiNiTEE [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3821632 - 02/23/05 12:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

in my opinion zero and infinity are not that far apart. if in a shroom trip all of a sudden time seems to stop, what is happening? I seem to be experiencing eternity and yet time is reduced to nothing. emptiness contains all and yet is nothing in itself.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: InFiNiTEE [Re: a_h_w]
    #3821828 - 02/23/05 01:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

in my opinion zero and infinity are not that far apart

well, just ask the Taoists: zero is so zeroish that it's one nanosecond away from becoming infinite.

Phantomcat: what's all this talk about the infinite wheel collapsing into a black hole? why would that happen? don't get me wrong, any excuse for a black hole to form is okay by me...

Would there be an infinitely possible way to not have that wheel move at any given point in time....?

I'm about to start another thread to address just that


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
Loc: border of Canada and Mexi...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: the infinite wheel [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3823336 - 02/23/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Reading your post, I feel like I am studying one of M.C. Escher's famous impossible pictures. A logical answer doesn't come to mind, but I take it this thread was created to make you THINK. So I will try anyways, just for fun.

At first it would seem there are two infinities. One is ever expanding; the spoke of the wheel. The other infinity, or should I say infinite task, asks you to find the non-rotating point in the center of the wheel.

Focusing on the center of the wheel, we realize that even the smallest conceivable point is rotating. This indicates that it is orbiting around an smaller point. I originally made the mistake of visualizing what this smaller area looked like; but I found that even this smaller point had an even smaller point inside of it in which it was rotating around. I came to the conclusion that there is a geometric point (1D) inside of this two dimensional wheel. This point has symmetry to itself, so it does not move.

So we have a fixed, one dimensional point with a spoke of infinite measure attached to it. In geometry, we call this a ray. Any additional points on this ray are going to rotate around the ray?s origin. The rule holds true even for the point closest to the origin.

Will a wheel with a spoke of infinite measure be able to turn? If infinity is possible, and it is in our theoretical model, then the turning wheel is also.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: the infinite wheel [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3823422 - 02/23/05 06:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

to find the non-rotating point in the center of the wheel.


nope, I said that there's a non-moving point in the centre. this point is potentially still rotating. it just isn't sweeping around the 360 degrees (orbiting). there's a difference between rotating and orbiting, right?

I made a big assumption in my original post: that the axis of a wheel is a one-dimensional line, rather than a fuzzy indistinct bar. I guess in a thought experiment everything can be perfect.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
Loc: border of Canada and Mexi...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: the infinite wheel [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3823838 - 02/23/05 08:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

>there's a difference between rotating and orbiting, right?
-The only difference that I see is inclusion.

You did make alot of assumptions, but they were necessary to build the hypothetical model we were all working in. I'm sorry if I broke away from that model, deunionizing our thoughts, but I did it to make a model that way more logical (at least to me)

Can you explain how the center point is rotating, but not the full 360 degrees, while the rest of the wheel is completing that 360 degrees?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* the infinite wheel revisited Zekebomb 1,012 6 02/23/05 09:12 PM
by TheShroomHermit
* Singularity, Free Will, Infinite Dimensions...
( 1 2 all )
Joshua 3,515 30 04/12/02 05:47 PM
by skaMariaPastora
* an interesting site, god is a mathematic formula Smack31 1,064 8 08/09/02 12:32 PM
by Anonymous
* Infinite universe? Or infinite God? Same thing actually?
( 1 2 3 all )
repemon 3,098 42 05/11/04 02:04 AM
by TheShroomHermit
* The Infinite Vastness of the Universe
( 1 2 3 4 all )
silversoul7 3,194 64 08/18/06 12:00 AM
by some1whoisntme
* If the universe is infinite
( 1 2 all )
WhiteRabbitt 2,850 35 09/02/06 10:51 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Check out this formula! Quoiyaien 667 15 12/19/05 10:29 PM
by crunchytoast
* Discussion of the infinite
( 1 2 all )
gento 1,379 21 01/01/09 10:04 AM
by fruitymel13

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,087 topic views. 3 members, 34 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Fairy Ring Spores
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.068 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 16 queries.