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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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If the universe is infinite
    #6017235 - 09/01/06 10:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

then does that mean that there are also an infinite number of combinations for life and existence? What I mean is if the universe is infinite, does everything that we can think of or imagine exist? Would dragons, elves, angels, goblins, monsters, magic, space ships, flying potatos all exist at some place or time?


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You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



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OfflineShroomerious Happy Birthday!
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6017240 - 09/01/06 10:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I suppose the limit(as a mathematical term) of that statement would be yes.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6017252 - 09/01/06 10:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Imaginary dragons, elves, and angels all exist and they all have their own imaginations.

There are no limitations to no lmitations.

:mushroom2:


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OfflineToddo
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6017374 - 09/01/06 11:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and so on, and so forth..


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Shroomery Composition Contest


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Offlineslamdunk
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6017424 - 09/01/06 12:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and there is no end of my love for jesus


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6017519 - 09/01/06 02:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> does everything that we can think of or imagine exist?

No, it only means that everything that we can think of (and everything that we cannot think of) has the potential to exist, not that it must, or does exist.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6017521 - 09/01/06 02:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The universe is not infinite. Infinity is not a quality that pertains to space-time, to creation. The universe is bounded and its boundary is about 15 billion light years from its assumed epicenter (point of creation from the Singularity). Of course the boundary is expanding, and theoretically it can be said that it could expand forever unless acted upon by other forces (not necessarily in a Newtonian sense). It could collapse, return to the Singularity, and perhaps start all over again - ad infinitum. A paradox.

Anything one can imagine already exists as mind, what you seem to be asking is whether any potential thought can exist in physical space-time. It all seems a matter of relativity to me. God 'dreams' the universe in all its complexity and it does manifest in space-time while we dream and things manifest in mind.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinezeegos
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6017600 - 09/01/06 04:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I dont see how it could ever have a limit. The way i think of it is as follows, a volume of 'space' is nothing but we can give it a definative name for it as a volume of space in which mass and energy can exist. Now if there is a limit to the universe that must mean that there is 'nothing' beyond the edge of this expanding universe, hense making it limitless. does that make sence? just my little theory :P
i think about this crap all the time and scrambles my head, lol


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: zeegos]
    #6017637 - 09/01/06 04:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Everything that is unknown is in conclusion unmeasurable, and many times unmeasurable is taken as infinite. It doesn't necessarily means that it has an end or not. The school of Pythagoras tried to find harmony through numbers, making music by numbers and give a definition and delimitation to the Universe, yes, by numbers. Only they got a little lost when they came to the conclusion that each fraction put to give a formula to the Universe became unmeasurable, and since the we are confronting the same problem


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6017698 - 09/01/06 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"There is no limit, but the limit!"
-Unknown :p


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Gomp]
    #6017755 - 09/01/06 05:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"If". :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6018297 - 09/01/06 09:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not everything has the formality of actually occuring :wink:

Something that terrence mckenna qouted an old timer saying.


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:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #6018379 - 09/01/06 09:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The universe isn't infinite :smirk:


If it was...then yes that would be true. It's not...so it isn't.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: trendal]
    #6018387 - 09/01/06 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Trendal!  I guess I missed the welcome back post...welcome back buddy :smile:


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: TODAY]
    #6018397 - 09/01/06 09:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Only half back thus far... :wink:




I'm typing with my left hand :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: trendal]
    #6018422 - 09/01/06 09:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

... at a rate of 87 wpm....

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: trendal]
    #6018429 - 09/01/06 09:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Now that's dedication!  I'm hoping you get that stubborn side back in order asap.
:cheers:


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: zeegos]
    #6019300 - 09/02/06 01:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The boundary, if something could overcome its expansion, cannot be penetrated. One would theoretically attempt a straight line from somewhere within the universe but hit the curvature of space-time. The universe does not exist within infinite space. Space is not separate from time. Space-time is expanding, but there is no such thing as 'outside' the boundary of the universe. At that point, physics turns metaphysical. I like to think, with the Kabbalists, that the universe is like an 'contractile vacuole' in an amoeba. The contractile vacuole is a bubble that forms when the cytoplasm of the amoeba retacts from a point, forming a hollow space. There is a limit to how large the bubble can get because the amoeba is limited by its size. What if the amoeba was Infinitely large? Well, a physical amoeba can't be Infinite, but something else can be (at least in concept) and that is God. The Mind of God surrounds the universe (Kabbalistically speaking) and the universe could seemingly expand forever without diminishing God, because God alone is Infinite. However, Infinity and Eternity do NOT mean endless space and endless time. Infinity is not a measure of duration. In addition, since there was a time in which the universe did not exist, it cannot be said to have been created, and then to 'become' Infinite and Eternal. These words do not apply to something spacial and temporal - there is origin and therefore end, by necessity.

Anyway, the physics at the boundary must surely be different than at points within the boundary. If the boundary is expanding at the speed of light, and if nothing can exceed the speed of light, then there is no sentience at the newer parts of the expanding universe to observe the boundary. The so-called boundary or edge would always appear as a receding horizon, if it could be observed. Einstein said that if a body attained to the speed of light, it would achieve "infinite mass," which might mean one thing to the mathematician, another to a quantum physicist, but to a mystic it would seem (in achieving Infinity) Oneness with God.

What is particularly mind-blowing [Nirvanic?!] to me is that the Infinitely large and the Infinitely small are Identical! Infinity utterly transcends any qualifiers such as large or small. One leaves space-time in Infinity.

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSyle
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6019614 - 09/02/06 02:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

that little flash thing almost made me cry...

if that isn't ego crushing, I dunno what is.


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Syle]
    #6020430 - 09/02/06 07:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, but Realizing that you and I are you and I because 'we' are 'pinched off' from the Mind that created all of it is strictly Enlightening. It is like we are goldfish in a fishbowl that is sitting on the bottom of the sea. "In Christ we live and move and have our being."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: slamdunk]
    #6021480 - 09/02/06 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

slamdunk said:
and there is no end of my love for jesus




lol.

i agree tho.... everything is infinite as all fuck. everything exists...


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Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6021504 - 09/02/06 03:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The universe is not infinite. Infinity is not a quality that pertains to space-time, to creation. . The universe is bounded and its boundary is about 15 billion light years from its assumed epicenter (point of creation from the Singularity). 




Thats a pretty big assumption Markos. Not even Einstein was sure as to whether or not the universe is infinite, yet you seem to be totally convinced of even its exact size.  :smirk:

In the immortal words of the late Bill Hicks. "He's obviously not a physics major".  :wink: :lol:


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Edited by Sinbad (09/02/06 03:36 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Sinbad]
    #6021556 - 09/02/06 03:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No one is making estimations here what the exact size of the Universe is. Metaphysics was not even Einstein's area of expertise and extracaricular talent. If he considered the possibility of the universe having a circumference at its expanding horizon, he would have to delve into metaphysics, which is like Michael Jordan playing baseball.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021572 - 09/02/06 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If Einstein had considered such a notion, then it would been a "hypothesis". The next step is to prove or disprove that hypothesis using scientific method, instead of stating assumptions as if they were a fact like Markos did.

Your correct though, assuming to know the diameter of the universe by stating the assumed distance from the assumed epicenter to the assumed boundary isn't the same as stating its exact size. Why? Becuase assumptions are nothing more than castles in the sky.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Sinbad]
    #6021591 - 09/02/06 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh it's quite simple really. Einstein has little or no significance on the matter. If the guy managed to construct a fantastic contraption that was able to rip a hole in the time-space continuum, Einstein would not be prepared as to what would come flooding out if even physically possible, because Einstein wasn't a mystic. These are mystical matters, not physical ones. I'd sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of the metaphysical, because it is their field of expertise not that of physicists and mathematicians.

Besides, this thread is more about the "assumed boundary" of the Universe, not it's size. Just what is on the 'other side'? I think we can all agree that finding this out with the scientific method is uh, scientifically impossible. The answer is that there is nothing hidden that cannot be revealed. Since the scientific method is inept in this scenario, another method is required to explore. And while some will beg to differ that such exploration is possible, they have forgotten the wisdom that there is nothing hidden that cannot be revealed.



--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021612 - 09/02/06 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
These are mystical matters, not physical ones. I'd sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of the metaphysical, because it is their field of expertise not that of physicists and mathematicians.




I highly doubt imagining things that could never be substantiated is a "field of expertise", although there certainly does seem to be a large amount of experts in making shit up. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Sinbad]
    #6021629 - 09/02/06 05:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I WAS making an assumption about the boundedness of the universe, and I was using 'imagery' gleaned from Kabbalistic thought. I'm not a "physics major," and I'm past being a college student with a major, but my assumption about the finite universe is grounded not in physics but in philosophical and theological considerations about the terms Infinity and Eternity. They are NOT about 'duration' or 'extension.' I am posting from an Intuitive stance, not an equally speculative Sensing stance. Whether the size of the universe is 15, 20 or howsoever many billion light years in size is immaterial here because if it's measurable due to limitation (the Gnostic 'horos'), then it is not Infinite. In a 'static state' theory of the universe, one more easily experiences a psychological 'leap' to the idea of infinitude. It is a leap from the mind's failure to get closure with the notion of infinite space and eternal duration, which may only exist in the abstract as a mathematical idea, but not in a manifest way. Why, because again, space-time and its corresponding manifestations as energy and matter exist in and AS space-time. Both conceptions of 'wave' and 'particle' have form, extension, duration and these are physical properties. Infinity is The Transcendenz.

A line may be symbolized mathematically as having 'one' dimension and represented by a pencil line with an arrow-head at both ends indicating that it is a dimension that extends ad infinitum. Fine, but aside from a mathematical abstraction this does not manifest outside of the domain of Pure Ideas. An infinite line does not exist in space-time in a bounded and therefore curved universe.

Einstein did write philosophically, even about God, but like C.G. Jung, with whom he had a conversation, both men remained wedded to their identities as scientists. When one leaves the mathematical abstractions pertaining to Infinity, and when one leaves the realm of psychological experiences pertaining to Infinity, one runs NOT from mind to matter, but to the opposite end of the continuum - the spirit - the origin of mind and matter. One may object to the religiously toned word spirit, but whatever one wishes to call the Transcendental Mystery which undergirds manifest reality - THAT from which arose the Singularity whence the universe emerged. I like to call it God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021630 - 09/02/06 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What's on the otherside, though?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6021631 - 09/02/06 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, way to call him on that, Markos, he says he would sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of a mystical nature, and yet he refuses your assertion, and you are the most studied mystic that I know of. :wtf: :grin:

I wonder what image he is lashing out agansit... :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021632 - 09/02/06 05:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
What's on the otherside, though?




What other side? All I see is reality. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021634 - 09/02/06 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What other side :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021636 - 09/02/06 05:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Yeah, way to call him on that, Markos, he says he would sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of a mystical nature, and yet he refuses your assertion, and you are the most studied mystic that I know of. :wtf: :grin:

I wonder what image he is lashing out agansit... :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




I think you've confused my posts with Sinbad's


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6021639 - 09/02/06 05:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
..the Transcendental Mystery which undergirds manifest reality - THAT from which arose the Singularity whence the universe emerged. I like to call it God.




:thumbup:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021640 - 09/02/06 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
What's on the otherside, though?




What other side? All I see is reality. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




What is this reality, and how is it different than existential reality?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021655 - 09/02/06 05:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
What is this reality, and how is it different than existential reality?




Reality is reality, and all that pertains to it. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021659 - 09/02/06 05:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I really wasn't trying to "call" anyone out (you trouble-maker  :smile:). I have made the 'shift' from an existential perspective to an ontological perspective long ago. That shift 'assumes,' or better yet 'posits' Ontos, Being, God as the First Cause and derives everything from That First Cause. It's the same shift that says 'I'm not a human having a spiritual experience, I'm a spirit having a human experience.' Or again, the transcendence described in Kabbalism as having one rise from the 'astral triangle' of identity to the 'ethical triangle' of identity. Crowley called it (after Abramelin the Mage) "Knowledge and Coversation With Your Holy Guardian Angel." This is not an unattainable goal. Will Parfitt describes it beautifully in his little (and inexpensive) book that is found at www.BN.com.



The shift (as I like to call it) provides a certain coherence of being-in-the-world (to use the existentialist expression) in which one's discipline is to Realize one's essential nature as 'being' or 'consciousness' or 'spirit.' This is Gnostic Christianity, it is Buddhism, it is Advaitist Hinduism - and clearly it is not a scientific perspective but science is expected to make discoveries which will be derivative of the ontological (and metaphysical) stance. Had Jung not died, he and Wolfgang Pauli may have come up with the psychological version of a Grand Unified Theory in which consciousness and space-time are seen as two sides of the same coin. Dualistic monism or some such description. The film 'Contact' with Jodi Foster can be understood along these lines. I liked to ask people what they thought about her visit to another world and the answers were pretty predictable. Most people said that she 'physically' visited another world because most people are indissolubly wed to their materialistic bias about reality. Nobody I spoke with thought that a psychic visit was 'as real' as a physical visit. After one makes 'the shift,' one can comfortably perceive 'maya,' 'samsara,' in all its bloody horror, as well as the 'lilies of the valley' as Ideas in the Mind of God. Everything is as ephemeral as a dream, relative to the Eternal Mind. Geological time is as changeable as cloud formations are to temporal mind from this shift to "non-ordinary reality." To personalize the notion, I find it rather comforting to see myself as an Idea in the Mind of God. God's Ideas should partake of God's nature which is Eternal.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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