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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: slamdunk]
    #6021480 - 09/02/06 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

slamdunk said:
and there is no end of my love for jesus




lol.

i agree tho.... everything is infinite as all fuck. everything exists...


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Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6021504 - 09/02/06 03:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The universe is not infinite. Infinity is not a quality that pertains to space-time, to creation. . The universe is bounded and its boundary is about 15 billion light years from its assumed epicenter (point of creation from the Singularity). 




Thats a pretty big assumption Markos. Not even Einstein was sure as to whether or not the universe is infinite, yet you seem to be totally convinced of even its exact size.  :smirk:

In the immortal words of the late Bill Hicks. "He's obviously not a physics major".  :wink: :lol:


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Edited by Sinbad (09/02/06 03:36 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Sinbad]
    #6021556 - 09/02/06 03:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No one is making estimations here what the exact size of the Universe is. Metaphysics was not even Einstein's area of expertise and extracaricular talent. If he considered the possibility of the universe having a circumference at its expanding horizon, he would have to delve into metaphysics, which is like Michael Jordan playing baseball.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021572 - 09/02/06 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If Einstein had considered such a notion, then it would been a "hypothesis". The next step is to prove or disprove that hypothesis using scientific method, instead of stating assumptions as if they were a fact like Markos did.

Your correct though, assuming to know the diameter of the universe by stating the assumed distance from the assumed epicenter to the assumed boundary isn't the same as stating its exact size. Why? Becuase assumptions are nothing more than castles in the sky.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Sinbad]
    #6021591 - 09/02/06 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh it's quite simple really. Einstein has little or no significance on the matter. If the guy managed to construct a fantastic contraption that was able to rip a hole in the time-space continuum, Einstein would not be prepared as to what would come flooding out if even physically possible, because Einstein wasn't a mystic. These are mystical matters, not physical ones. I'd sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of the metaphysical, because it is their field of expertise not that of physicists and mathematicians.

Besides, this thread is more about the "assumed boundary" of the Universe, not it's size. Just what is on the 'other side'? I think we can all agree that finding this out with the scientific method is uh, scientifically impossible. The answer is that there is nothing hidden that cannot be revealed. Since the scientific method is inept in this scenario, another method is required to explore. And while some will beg to differ that such exploration is possible, they have forgotten the wisdom that there is nothing hidden that cannot be revealed.



--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021612 - 09/02/06 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
These are mystical matters, not physical ones. I'd sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of the metaphysical, because it is their field of expertise not that of physicists and mathematicians.




I highly doubt imagining things that could never be substantiated is a "field of expertise", although there certainly does seem to be a large amount of experts in making shit up. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Sinbad]
    #6021629 - 09/02/06 05:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I WAS making an assumption about the boundedness of the universe, and I was using 'imagery' gleaned from Kabbalistic thought. I'm not a "physics major," and I'm past being a college student with a major, but my assumption about the finite universe is grounded not in physics but in philosophical and theological considerations about the terms Infinity and Eternity. They are NOT about 'duration' or 'extension.' I am posting from an Intuitive stance, not an equally speculative Sensing stance. Whether the size of the universe is 15, 20 or howsoever many billion light years in size is immaterial here because if it's measurable due to limitation (the Gnostic 'horos'), then it is not Infinite. In a 'static state' theory of the universe, one more easily experiences a psychological 'leap' to the idea of infinitude. It is a leap from the mind's failure to get closure with the notion of infinite space and eternal duration, which may only exist in the abstract as a mathematical idea, but not in a manifest way. Why, because again, space-time and its corresponding manifestations as energy and matter exist in and AS space-time. Both conceptions of 'wave' and 'particle' have form, extension, duration and these are physical properties. Infinity is The Transcendenz.

A line may be symbolized mathematically as having 'one' dimension and represented by a pencil line with an arrow-head at both ends indicating that it is a dimension that extends ad infinitum. Fine, but aside from a mathematical abstraction this does not manifest outside of the domain of Pure Ideas. An infinite line does not exist in space-time in a bounded and therefore curved universe.

Einstein did write philosophically, even about God, but like C.G. Jung, with whom he had a conversation, both men remained wedded to their identities as scientists. When one leaves the mathematical abstractions pertaining to Infinity, and when one leaves the realm of psychological experiences pertaining to Infinity, one runs NOT from mind to matter, but to the opposite end of the continuum - the spirit - the origin of mind and matter. One may object to the religiously toned word spirit, but whatever one wishes to call the Transcendental Mystery which undergirds manifest reality - THAT from which arose the Singularity whence the universe emerged. I like to call it God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021630 - 09/02/06 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What's on the otherside, though?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6021631 - 09/02/06 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, way to call him on that, Markos, he says he would sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of a mystical nature, and yet he refuses your assertion, and you are the most studied mystic that I know of. :wtf: :grin:

I wonder what image he is lashing out agansit... :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021632 - 09/02/06 05:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
What's on the otherside, though?




What other side? All I see is reality. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021634 - 09/02/06 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What other side :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021636 - 09/02/06 05:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Yeah, way to call him on that, Markos, he says he would sooner trust the assertion of a mystic on matters of a mystical nature, and yet he refuses your assertion, and you are the most studied mystic that I know of. :wtf: :grin:

I wonder what image he is lashing out agansit... :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




I think you've confused my posts with Sinbad's


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6021639 - 09/02/06 05:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
..the Transcendental Mystery which undergirds manifest reality - THAT from which arose the Singularity whence the universe emerged. I like to call it God.




:thumbup:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021640 - 09/02/06 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
What's on the otherside, though?




What other side? All I see is reality. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




What is this reality, and how is it different than existential reality?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: Basilides]
    #6021655 - 09/02/06 05:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
What is this reality, and how is it different than existential reality?




Reality is reality, and all that pertains to it. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the universe is infinite [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021659 - 09/02/06 05:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I really wasn't trying to "call" anyone out (you trouble-maker  :smile:). I have made the 'shift' from an existential perspective to an ontological perspective long ago. That shift 'assumes,' or better yet 'posits' Ontos, Being, God as the First Cause and derives everything from That First Cause. It's the same shift that says 'I'm not a human having a spiritual experience, I'm a spirit having a human experience.' Or again, the transcendence described in Kabbalism as having one rise from the 'astral triangle' of identity to the 'ethical triangle' of identity. Crowley called it (after Abramelin the Mage) "Knowledge and Coversation With Your Holy Guardian Angel." This is not an unattainable goal. Will Parfitt describes it beautifully in his little (and inexpensive) book that is found at www.BN.com.



The shift (as I like to call it) provides a certain coherence of being-in-the-world (to use the existentialist expression) in which one's discipline is to Realize one's essential nature as 'being' or 'consciousness' or 'spirit.' This is Gnostic Christianity, it is Buddhism, it is Advaitist Hinduism - and clearly it is not a scientific perspective but science is expected to make discoveries which will be derivative of the ontological (and metaphysical) stance. Had Jung not died, he and Wolfgang Pauli may have come up with the psychological version of a Grand Unified Theory in which consciousness and space-time are seen as two sides of the same coin. Dualistic monism or some such description. The film 'Contact' with Jodi Foster can be understood along these lines. I liked to ask people what they thought about her visit to another world and the answers were pretty predictable. Most people said that she 'physically' visited another world because most people are indissolubly wed to their materialistic bias about reality. Nobody I spoke with thought that a psychic visit was 'as real' as a physical visit. After one makes 'the shift,' one can comfortably perceive 'maya,' 'samsara,' in all its bloody horror, as well as the 'lilies of the valley' as Ideas in the Mind of God. Everything is as ephemeral as a dream, relative to the Eternal Mind. Geological time is as changeable as cloud formations are to temporal mind from this shift to "non-ordinary reality." To personalize the notion, I find it rather comforting to see myself as an Idea in the Mind of God. God's Ideas should partake of God's nature which is Eternal.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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