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OfflineDreamer987
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How can the universe not be infinate?
    #3260689 - 10/21/04 04:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?
Think about it. Its not even fathomable that there is an end to it.
Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives.
So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds.

Thats what i believe. I was trying to explain all this to an old friend of mine, who is very "level headed" and believes that since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.
I was like "well i believe that there is a planet made out of marshmellows somewher"
this pissed him off so much he wouldn't talk to me about philosophy, and religeous beliefs anymore.

also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so. Theres probly some sourt of reancarnation cycle.
those are just my beliefs...


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260745 - 10/21/04 04:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I pretty much agree with you.

Not sure if a marshmellow planet exists anywhere in 3 D, but it does now in the dimensions of the imagination. Maybe when you become a grander co-creator god, you can manifest one here. You can colonise ants on it too. That would be cool to watchover.

Your typo was funny. Yes, I think we are innerconcocted too as in a concoction of our own creation.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260792 - 10/21/04 05:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hi dreamer!! How've you been man?

You need to think in more than 3 dimensions! The universe is probably NOT infinite in size or duration...but that does not mean there is some sort of "barrier" at the "end" of the universe. In fact no "end" would exist, in that sense.

With this kind of physics, it is almost always beneficial to scale things down to 2 and 3 dimensions (our universe is more than 3 dimensional - though the exact number depends on the theory you look at: 4, 10, 11, 22). Also for the sake of clarity, I will not include Time as a dimension - lets take a look at ONLY spatial dimensions.

Imagine a 2-dimensional "universe". You can think of it existing as a piece of paper (though INFINITELY thin). Let's also imagine there are 2D creatures living in this paper universe. If one of them hops in a spaceship and flies out in one direction for long enough, he will reach the edge of the universe and can go no farther. This would be what is called an "open universe".

Now let's take that paper and pull the edges up to create a hollow sphere. This is STILL a 2-dimensional universe...but now it has been "warped" in 3 dimensions. The universe still only exists as the paper itself - only the skin of the sphere. For our 2D creatures, nothing "exists" in either the center or outside of their universe. In fact there is no way they could be directly aware that their universe isn't even flat! If our 2D spaceman flies off in one direction for long enough, instead of reaching the "edge" of the universe he ends up right back where he started. This is what you would call a "closed universe".

The big question: is our universe open or closed?

Another good analogy I've read involves those old school space-shooter games. The ones where you could only "fly" up, down, back or forth across the screen (a 2-dimensional space). When you get to one edge of the screen, you appear on the opposite edge. This space is actually shaped like a donut, with the "universe" being only the skin of the donut. You get this by taking the screen and imagine it's a flat piece of rubber. Since we know the top and bottom of the screen are "connected" we can glue the top and bottom of the rubber sheet together - to make a tube. We also know that the sides are connected, so you bend one end of the tube around and glue it to the other end. A donut.

I hope I've explained this well enough so that you can see there are other possibilities for the shape of a universe than just "flat".


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260800 - 10/21/04 05:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.

I would take this as proof that free-will does NOT exist: if anything you CAN do is already DONE somewhere else...then for you to do ANYTHING changes nothing at all :wink:

since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.

That actually falls along with what I am coming to think, more and more, is the deal. Our ENTIRE Universe is a prime example of self-synchronization and self-organization.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineDreamer987
The VerbalHerman Munster
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Registered: 04/15/03
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3260949 - 10/21/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

trendle! you make-a my head heart with your crazy examples. I am but a simple man with simple beliefs. 

    Universe is infinate, marshmellow universe. end of story. :wink: :sun:

but just for the sake of discussion elaborate more on this:
"our universe is more than 3 dimensional - though the exact number depends on the theory you look at: 4, 10, 11, 22). Also for the sake of clarity, I will not include Time as a dimension."


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Invisibletak
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260963 - 10/21/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

ALL I SEE ARE SHROOMISMS HANDS! I HOPE HE GETS OUT QUICK SO MY BANDWIDTH USAGE GOES DOWN :]]]]]]

the universe is infinate, believe me, i found out the hard way.

wish i had more time to be a part of this community, sorry for jacking your thread, peace my brothers.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260977 - 10/21/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What we know is that our Universe exists as 3 "spatial" dimensions (length, width, height) as well as one "temporal" dimension (Time). So the total number of VISIBLE dimensions is 4. Time must be included as a dimension because in our universe coordinates need to include time. Time IS a coordinate system, the same as our familiar idea of distance (ie: meet me at 4th and Elm, at 8pm).

Now some of the "newer" theories in physics allow, and even REQUIRE, the universe to have MORE than 4 dimensions. The theory I am most familiar with is string theory, which requires 10 dimensions to work (though at various points in the history of string theory, 11 and I think 26 dimensions were used). These "extra" dimensions are obviously NOT accessible to us, nor visible. In string theory, the extra dimensions are "hidden" from us because they have curled up smaller than anything that exists in 3 dimensions. They are there, all around and all through you, but you cannot see or feel them.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineDreamer987
The VerbalHerman Munster
Female

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 5,326
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: tak]
    #3260979 - 10/21/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

root-ninja-tak said:

the universe is infinate, believe me, i found out the hard way.

wish i had more time to be a part of this community, sorry for jacking your thread, peace my brothers.




whats the problem man, mabey we could help you out?


--------------------


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260981 - 10/21/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Have you been reading my sig?


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OfflineDreamer987
The VerbalHerman Munster
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Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 5,326
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Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3260998 - 10/21/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"These "extra" dimensions are obviously NOT accessible to us, nor visible"

Don't you think tripping helps to give a glimpse of some of these extra dimensions?


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Offlinekbilly
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261018 - 10/21/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the universe in not infinite, it has a size which is growing and may grow forever(because it expands too fast and thing get too far apart for gravity to keep hold) and all youd end up seeing would be blackk. or it may run out of juice and start falling back into itself - movement slows down because of gravity stops and then starts in the direction it came from, remeber its still growing outwards because of an explosion that took place billions of years ago. now thats some big explosion.

the reason i say its not infinite is because the ideas of big or samll are based on the idea of size, they apply in our universe outside of it beyond our universe they dont apply because theres nothing there that can be measured with our rules.

of course there might be an infinite number of universes that are so far apart from each other they will never meet.

"I would take this as proof that free-will does NOT exist: if anything you CAN do is already DONE somewhere else...then for you to do ANYTHING changes nothing at all"

of course it does, sgagging a hot chick while your both high on shrooms CLEARLY changes everything. it may matter only to you but thats still the best reason to do stuff, and you end up doing cool stuff because you care and you appreciate how amazing life is.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261020 - 10/21/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It's possible, though I don't think so :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinebittercap
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3261028 - 10/21/04 06:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Infinity is a pleasent illusion.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261051 - 10/21/04 06:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes they are. You can access them intradimensionally, like you do when tripping.

Here's how I know the infinite part of this related to closed part of this. You can add an extra dimension of space to existing space by creating a void in it. Nature always fills a void. If in your mind, you create new space, to house new potential, and seed it with intent, you can expand upon your reality. Infinite potential is a more acurate way to look at it then infinite space.

I use to wonder to how you could travel through space and hit a wall. I use wonder, well, whats outside of the wall?

You have to think of yourself as the center of your own universe. Your universe is the bubble of what you have experienced and realised to be there and possible.

Whats outside of the bubble is the unknown of the self, the unrealised facets of the self and self potential.

When you open your mind and heart to new possibilities of what can be, you create void space for nature to fill it. Thats how you expand your own universe to infinite size.

Dimensions are realised like space within space, not space outside of space and they bloom within each other as they become realised.

Maybe this is difficult to comprehend too.

If you want to experience more of reality, think of reality like being water in a lake. You have to dig the lake deeper and wider, and you do that by openning your mind and heart wider to allow more in.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (10/21/04 06:14 PM)


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OfflineJ4S0N
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: bittercap]
    #3261058 - 10/21/04 06:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If the universe if finite, then what exactly is it? Is it like an object? An object which contains all matter and energy? If this is so, then what contains this finite universe? What is beyond?

So many questions..


--------------------
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3261089 - 10/21/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with trendal.
An expanding egg shaped donut, however :wink:

I think that the Universe is infinitely finite in that it is continually expanding but the objects that it contains are finite in number.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinedeff
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3261706 - 10/21/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yup, time is a definite dimension, altough our consciousness 'scans' this dimension rather than freely moving through it, based around our design of overlapping neurolgical recording and decoding moments, passing off memory of previous moments as an actual previous moment, together creating the perception of linear time. Or something.

So I can be sure of four dimensions that I experience (3 I actually experience (spatial) and four that I perceive to experience based around our memory system. It's like a flipbook. Each image only experiences the two dimensions of the page, yet the flipping consciousness has the illusion of experiencing three dimensions (taking the width of the paper in effect as the third).

I'm not familar enough with the String Theory to know how they mathematically derived the existence of 10 dimensions. I think it's very possible for this number to be off (I'm think more along the lines of infinite...) and maybe our math derived from the three spatial demensions is only capable in proving the additional 7 (by the String theory, assuming it's actually correct).

I've also been thinking a lot about consciousness acting as a fifth dimension along the lines of observational experience, but my ideas on this are way too disorganized and hard to explain - plus I'm probably way off.

Neat and mind boggling topic for sure, though :smile:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261961 - 10/21/04 09:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.

Some infinities are bigger than others. Even given infinite time and space, not all possible events will necessarily occur.

Saying that all possible events will eventually occur is like saying that a machine that spits out random numbers will eventually spit out the exact value for Pi.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineRedEyeSamurai
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3261986 - 10/21/04 09:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well, heres my first post and two cents on the universe.

I am not sure what qualifies as the 'universe' but I am pretty sure thier is an infinite something. We (humans) are a concentration of the infinite 'cosmic dust' or whatever you personally call it(Quarks, atoms, neutrons, cinder blocks, anything). So we are a collection of stuff in a blend of more stuff that keeps going. Mabey our universe expands, but it does not mean its not expanding into something else.
If that were true it would be just like anythng else in nature (the cosmos, etc.). It would be no different then a falling rock or a simple chemical atraction. Arguably (god anyone?), Life started with a simple chemical reaction and eventually cells that preserved themselves formed. Currently in time we have all sorts of 'life', that are all self preserving organisms.
So in this scenario we have life on all diferent size scales from the hugest macrouniverse of the imagination to the smallest speck concievable.

Here is the kicker in my argument though, we percieve what we do becasue of what I will call the dialectec. This has been seen in cultures around the globe including the 'balance in classical greece, the yin and yan, the infinite of pan american shaminism. The common factor is that you have to achieve knoweledge as it is usefull for you by finding a balance between too things. Example: Try to describe hot or cold without numbers we made up to describe the experience.

Well if this theory is correct then it does not even matter if the universe is infinite, all that matters (too humans that is) is the expansion of human life (probably the best way for that is to preserve all life as we know it from precident) and the ability to look at the bright side of life.

Either that or the infinite dimensions, and I dont think my brain will let me ponder infinite dimensions yet. Sorry for the book.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: RedEyeSamurai]
    #3262036 - 10/21/04 09:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Saying that all possible events will eventually occur is like saying that a machine that spits out random numbers will eventually spit out the exact value for Pi."

While such a 'coincidence' is extremely extremely extremely improbable, if the machine spit out infinite amounts of, in this case, infinitely long numbers (assuming there is no pattern to pi), then this would eventually occur.

That's the power of true 'infinity'.

Of course, what we know as 'infinity' is only a concept developed by our 'finite' logic :smile:


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