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How can the universe not be infinate?
    #3260689 -

Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?
Think about it. Its not even fathomable that there is an end to it.
Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives.
So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds.

Thats what i believe. I was trying to explain all this to an old friend of mine, who is very "level headed" and believes that since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.
I was like "well i believe that there is a planet made out of marshmellows somewher"
this pissed him off so much he wouldn't talk to me about philosophy, and religeous beliefs anymore.

also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so. Theres probly some sourt of reancarnation cycle.
those are just my beliefs...


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260745 -

I pretty much agree with you.

Not sure if a marshmellow planet exists anywhere in 3 D, but it does now in the dimensions of the imagination. Maybe when you become a grander co-creator god, you can manifest one here. You can colonise ants on it too. That would be cool to watchover.

Your typo was funny. Yes, I think we are innerconcocted too as in a concoction of our own creation.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260792 -

Hi dreamer!! How've you been man?

You need to think in more than 3 dimensions! The universe is probably NOT infinite in size or duration...but that does not mean there is some sort of "barrier" at the "end" of the universe. In fact no "end" would exist, in that sense.

With this kind of physics, it is almost always beneficial to scale things down to 2 and 3 dimensions (our universe is more than 3 dimensional - though the exact number depends on the theory you look at: 4, 10, 11, 22). Also for the sake of clarity, I will not include Time as a dimension - lets take a look at ONLY spatial dimensions.

Imagine a 2-dimensional "universe". You can think of it existing as a piece of paper (though INFINITELY thin). Let's also imagine there are 2D creatures living in this paper universe. If one of them hops in a spaceship and flies out in one direction for long enough, he will reach the edge of the universe and can go no farther. This would be what is called an "open universe".

Now let's take that paper and pull the edges up to create a hollow sphere. This is STILL a 2-dimensional universe...but now it has been "warped" in 3 dimensions. The universe still only exists as the paper itself - only the skin of the sphere. For our 2D creatures, nothing "exists" in either the center or outside of their universe. In fact there is no way they could be directly aware that their universe isn't even flat! If our 2D spaceman flies off in one direction for long enough, instead of reaching the "edge" of the universe he ends up right back where he started. This is what you would call a "closed universe".

The big question: is our universe open or closed?

Another good analogy I've read involves those old school space-shooter games. The ones where you could only "fly" up, down, back or forth across the screen (a 2-dimensional space). When you get to one edge of the screen, you appear on the opposite edge. This space is actually shaped like a donut, with the "universe" being only the skin of the donut. You get this by taking the screen and imagine it's a flat piece of rubber. Since we know the top and bottom of the screen are "connected" we can glue the top and bottom of the rubber sheet together - to make a tube. We also know that the sides are connected, so you bend one end of the tube around and glue it to the other end. A donut.

I hope I've explained this well enough so that you can see there are other possibilities for the shape of a universe than just "flat".


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260800 -

Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.

I would take this as proof that free-will does NOT exist: if anything you CAN do is already DONE somewhere else...then for you to do ANYTHING changes nothing at all :wink:

since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.

That actually falls along with what I am coming to think, more and more, is the deal. Our ENTIRE Universe is a prime example of self-synchronization and self-organization.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3260949 -

trendle! you make-a my head heart with your crazy examples. I am but a simple man with simple beliefs. 

    Universe is infinate, marshmellow universe. end of story. :wink: :sun:

but just for the sake of discussion elaborate more on this:
"our universe is more than 3 dimensional - though the exact number depends on the theory you look at: 4, 10, 11, 22). Also for the sake of clarity, I will not include Time as a dimension."


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260963 -

ALL I SEE ARE SHROOMISMS HANDS! I HOPE HE GETS OUT QUICK SO MY BANDWIDTH USAGE GOES DOWN :]]]]]]

the universe is infinate, believe me, i found out the hard way.

wish i had more time to be a part of this community, sorry for jacking your thread, peace my brothers.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260977 -

What we know is that our Universe exists as 3 "spatial" dimensions (length, width, height) as well as one "temporal" dimension (Time). So the total number of VISIBLE dimensions is 4. Time must be included as a dimension because in our universe coordinates need to include time. Time IS a coordinate system, the same as our familiar idea of distance (ie: meet me at 4th and Elm, at 8pm).

Now some of the "newer" theories in physics allow, and even REQUIRE, the universe to have MORE than 4 dimensions. The theory I am most familiar with is string theory, which requires 10 dimensions to work (though at various points in the history of string theory, 11 and I think 26 dimensions were used). These "extra" dimensions are obviously NOT accessible to us, nor visible. In string theory, the extra dimensions are "hidden" from us because they have curled up smaller than anything that exists in 3 dimensions. They are there, all around and all through you, but you cannot see or feel them.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: tak]
    #3260979 -

root-ninja-tak said:
the universe is infinate, believe me, i found out the hard way.

wish i had more time to be a part of this community, sorry for jacking your thread, peace my brothers.


whats the problem man, mabey we could help you out?


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3260981 -

Have you been reading my sig?


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3260998 -

"These "extra" dimensions are obviously NOT accessible to us, nor visible"

Don't you think tripping helps to give a glimpse of some of these extra dimensions?


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261018 -

the universe in not infinite, it has a size which is growing and may grow forever(because it expands too fast and thing get too far apart for gravity to keep hold) and all youd end up seeing would be blackk. or it may run out of juice and start falling back into itself - movement slows down because of gravity stops and then starts in the direction it came from, remeber its still growing outwards because of an explosion that took place billions of years ago. now thats some big explosion.

the reason i say its not infinite is because the ideas of big or samll are based on the idea of size, they apply in our universe outside of it beyond our universe they dont apply because theres nothing there that can be measured with our rules.

of course there might be an infinite number of universes that are so far apart from each other they will never meet.

"I would take this as proof that free-will does NOT exist: if anything you CAN do is already DONE somewhere else...then for you to do ANYTHING changes nothing at all"

of course it does, sgagging a hot chick while your both high on shrooms CLEARLY changes everything. it may matter only to you but thats still the best reason to do stuff, and you end up doing cool stuff because you care and you appreciate how amazing life is.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261020 -

It's possible, though I don't think so :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3261028 -

Infinity is a pleasent illusion.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261051 -

Yes they are. You can access them intradimensionally, like you do when tripping.

Here's how I know the infinite part of this related to closed part of this. You can add an extra dimension of space to existing space by creating a void in it. Nature always fills a void. If in your mind, you create new space, to house new potential, and seed it with intent, you can expand upon your reality. Infinite potential is a more acurate way to look at it then infinite space.

I use to wonder to how you could travel through space and hit a wall. I use wonder, well, whats outside of the wall?

You have to think of yourself as the center of your own universe. Your universe is the bubble of what you have experienced and realised to be there and possible.

Whats outside of the bubble is the unknown of the self, the unrealised facets of the self and self potential.

When you open your mind and heart to new possibilities of what can be, you create void space for nature to fill it. Thats how you expand your own universe to infinite size.

Dimensions are realised like space within space, not space outside of space and they bloom within each other as they become realised.

Maybe this is difficult to comprehend too.

If you want to experience more of reality, think of reality like being water in a lake. You have to dig the lake deeper and wider, and you do that by openning your mind and heart wider to allow more in.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (10/21/04 04:14 PM)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: bittercap]
    #3261058 -

If the universe if finite, then what exactly is it? Is it like an object? An object which contains all matter and energy? If this is so, then what contains this finite universe? What is beyond?

So many questions..


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"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3261089 -

I agree with trendal.
An expanding egg shaped donut, however :wink:

I think that the Universe is infinitely finite in that it is continually expanding but the objects that it contains are finite in number.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3261706 -

Yup, time is a definite dimension, altough our consciousness 'scans' this dimension rather than freely moving through it, based around our design of overlapping neurolgical recording and decoding moments, passing off memory of previous moments as an actual previous moment, together creating the perception of linear time. Or something.

So I can be sure of four dimensions that I experience (3 I actually experience (spatial) and four that I perceive to experience based around our memory system. It's like a flipbook. Each image only experiences the two dimensions of the page, yet the flipping consciousness has the illusion of experiencing three dimensions (taking the width of the paper in effect as the third).

I'm not familar enough with the String Theory to know how they mathematically derived the existence of 10 dimensions. I think it's very possible for this number to be off (I'm think more along the lines of infinite...) and maybe our math derived from the three spatial demensions is only capable in proving the additional 7 (by the String theory, assuming it's actually correct).

I've also been thinking a lot about consciousness acting as a fifth dimension along the lines of observational experience, but my ideas on this are way too disorganized and hard to explain - plus I'm probably way off.

Neat and mind boggling topic for sure, though :smile:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3261961 -

if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.

Some infinities are bigger than others. Even given infinite time and space, not all possible events will necessarily occur.

Saying that all possible events will eventually occur is like saying that a machine that spits out random numbers will eventually spit out the exact value for Pi.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3261986 -

Well, heres my first post and two cents on the universe.

I am not sure what qualifies as the 'universe' but I am pretty sure thier is an infinite something. We (humans) are a concentration of the infinite 'cosmic dust' or whatever you personally call it(Quarks, atoms, neutrons, cinder blocks, anything). So we are a collection of stuff in a blend of more stuff that keeps going. Mabey our universe expands, but it does not mean its not expanding into something else.
If that were true it would be just like anythng else in nature (the cosmos, etc.). It would be no different then a falling rock or a simple chemical atraction. Arguably (god anyone?), Life started with a simple chemical reaction and eventually cells that preserved themselves formed. Currently in time we have all sorts of 'life', that are all self preserving organisms.
So in this scenario we have life on all diferent size scales from the hugest macrouniverse of the imagination to the smallest speck concievable.

Here is the kicker in my argument though, we percieve what we do becasue of what I will call the dialectec. This has been seen in cultures around the globe including the 'balance in classical greece, the yin and yan, the infinite of pan american shaminism. The common factor is that you have to achieve knoweledge as it is usefull for you by finding a balance between too things. Example: Try to describe hot or cold without numbers we made up to describe the experience.

Well if this theory is correct then it does not even matter if the universe is infinite, all that matters (too humans that is) is the expansion of human life (probably the best way for that is to preserve all life as we know it from precident) and the ability to look at the bright side of life.

Either that or the infinite dimensions, and I dont think my brain will let me ponder infinite dimensions yet. Sorry for the book.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: RedEyeSamurai]
    #3262036 -

"Saying that all possible events will eventually occur is like saying that a machine that spits out random numbers will eventually spit out the exact value for Pi."

While such a 'coincidence' is extremely extremely extremely improbable, if the machine spit out infinite amounts of, in this case, infinitely long numbers (assuming there is no pattern to pi), then this would eventually occur.

That's the power of true 'infinity'.

Of course, what we know as 'infinity' is only a concept developed by our 'finite' logic :smile:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3262047 -

While such a 'coincidence' is extremely extremely extremely improbable, if the machine spit out infinite amounts of, in this case, infinitely long numbers (assuming there is no pattern to pi), then this would eventually occur.

You're wrong.

Study Set Theory.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Diploid]
    #3262090 -

Yes, and that's absolutely correct.

Set theory refers to the differing functions or 'types' of 'infinities' right?

While I do not claim to know anything about set theory, I think the disagreement here is merely semantics.

My use of infinity is that which is not only everything in our sense of the word (as we are finite beings) but rather ___________ (I find words hard to describe the underlining principle of 'infinity'). It is far beyond logic and our understanding, and I do not claim to experience it on any level or to know it's true "power".

Sure, mathematics uses the term 'infinity' to describe many different things.

Like how there's infinite values between 6 and 7 exclusively, infinite values between 7 and 8, and yet also infinite values between 6 and 8. The infinite I reference to is one of infinite values within infinite dimensions of infinite.... infinite... infinite.... everything. This is the only true sense of the word to me, as clearly the other infinite terms have limits in place, something that, while there may be infinite values, means that it is not "the infinity".

I probably made no sense whatsoever, but whatever :smile:

Don't forget that math derived by human logic is not necessarily absolute. While I realize I have no proof for such an 'infinity', it is my understanding that this nature is present as the universe, but I could be wrong :smile:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3262105 -

Wll Deff

"Of course, what we know as 'infinity' is only a concept developed by our 'finite' logic"

Or is the 'finite' our brains way of dealing with the 'infinate' always available to us?

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3262132 -

Well, if you subscribe to a geometrically structured universe (see my thread) when you reach that wall, you end up going right back into it. Like a level in mario where when you reach the end of the screen, you suddenly appear on the opposite side entering the screen.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3262155 -

"Or is the 'finite' our brains way of dealing with the 'infinate' always available to us?"

Very true :smile:

However, it is unknowable (to me anyways) which it is at this point.

Infinite is available to us in that the universe surrounding us is infinite in my view, however, as fragments of this infinite it is hard to say if we too are infinite in nature and are hiding it behind 'finite' logic.

Very good point though :smile:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Diploid]
    #3262171 -

EDIT: Sorry, repost!



Edited by TheShroomHermit (10/21/04 08:22 PM)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3262294 -

This is neat stuff guys...!  I need an asparin, but thats cool too...  :laugh:


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3262323 -

So In either mario or asteroids you hit that wall and you pop up on the other side. That folded around as if it were a sphere is our universe. I think if that were true then the universe must have a way to travel faster through it then straight through it (think 2d to 3d; its no different then 3 dimensions to 4 dimensions, we just cant percieve the latter) and thus also is circular in nature. One can conclude if this were the case thier is an infinite regress into a larger and larger system. This system was necisarily be an infinite number of dimensions by the definition of it (or thier are 83 of them, man this shit is boggiling).


P.S. These are not my random thoughts, Scientific America tried to explain that infinite dimension doughnut thing to me once, these are just my random thoughts extrapolating on Scientific America.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3262777 -

Dreamer987 said:
Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?
Think about it. Its not even fathomable that there is an end to it.

But they have found things that lead to theories of how the universe will end. This is unproven in either direction but one popular theory is that the universe has had several "big bangs" where the universe spreads out to the point that it collapses on it's self. This would be a result of black holes concentrating all the matter to the point that nothing can escape their reach and eventually it's all sucked up back in to one tiny dot. Then repeat. Our galaxy in fact is anchored by a black hole that's sucking stuff in every day. Eventually it will be consumed entirely.
Quote:
Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives.

We have torn things down to the tiniest level, proving that there are things that are tiny beyond belief. A lot of these things live the shortest life spans in the world to us, but I'm sure to them it's relative. Think of a tumor growing. Is that not a living organism? A tumor probably sees it's lifespan as we see ours, but with less cognitive thought.
Quote:

So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds.

Thats what i believe. I was trying to explain all this to an old friend of mine, who is very "level headed" and believes that since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.
I was like "well i believe that there is a planet made out of marshmellows somewher"
this pissed him off so much he wouldn't talk to me about philosophy, and religeous beliefs anymore.

also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so. Theres probly some sourt of reancarnation cycle.
those are just my beliefs...

Our very essence is most likely from Nebulas across the galaxy, therefor meaning we are made of the stars. These nebulas are what release nearly all the ingredients for life in the universe.


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You've raped! I feel dirty
It hurt! As a child
Tied down! That's a good boy
And fucked! Your own child
I scream! No one hears me
It hurt! I'm not a liar
My God! Saw you watching
Mommy why?! Your own child -Korn

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Tripster]
    #3263030 -

I think we as Westerners have big problem as we are taught to view the world in very discrete, finite, and conceptual terms. We just can't fathom that time is without beginiing or end, that the universe is infinite, and that nothing exists discretely or indendently as it does in our minds.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3263276 -

Speaking in purely scientific terms--if the universe were infinite, matter would have to be infinite, for it is seriously doubtful for an infinite space, there's an almost imperceptibly finite amount of matter. But if this were so, everything would wind down to a single point in the universe eventually--the gravity of everything around you would rip you to pieces, because it would be an INFINITE amount of gravity, no matter how small, infinity * .1 is still infinity.

Kinda hard to explain...heh.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: DjYoshi]
    #3263296 -

See quantum mechanics and the holographic universe theory.
In quantum mechanics everything that can happen does happen at once, and in the holographic universe theory there is no space or matter either, everything is one point and only gains space, time and substantiality through the human brain.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3263367 -

"everything is one point and only gains space, time and substantiality through the human brain."

so therefore when there were people for say firts 5 billion years there was no space time or substance?

so how come i can dig up diamonds that are billions of years old or dinosaur bones only a couple of hundred million.

i dont know a hell of a lot about quantum mechanics but im pretty sure that it says quite a lot of stuff since its the "new improved & expanded" physics but im not sure it says that everything happens at once. quantum mechanics is hard science just like newtonian physics and is based on observation and mathematical calculation, and i dont know that theres anything in reality that suggest or proves what you say. hence the word "theory"

Edited by kbilly (10/22/04 12:58 AM)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3263673 -

Quote:
Another good analogy I've read involves those old school space-shooter games. The ones where you could only "fly" up, down, back or forth across the screen (a 2-dimensional space). When you get to one edge of the screen, you appear on the opposite edge. This space is actually shaped like a donut, with the "universe" being only the skin of the donut. You get this by taking the screen and imagine it's a flat piece of rubber. Since we know the top and bottom of the screen are "connected" we can glue the top and bottom of the rubber sheet together - to make a tube. We also know that the sides are connected, so you bend one end of the tube around and glue it to the other end. A donut.



Ah ha! Oldskool games! something I'm well versed in.
In some of them, you could fly off the map into netherlands. You could just keep going.. and going.. and going. you'd not see anything, because the developers did not add anything out there, however the game would let you continue seeing the automatically generated scenery forever.
You can go.. and go.. and go.. and continually increase the 'size' of the map. It's really only as large as the developers made it, but as you extend yourself outside those dimensions is 'grows' to accomodate both their world, and yourself. You don't loop back, but you don't get anywhere.

Which is kind of close. The size of our universe at any given time is only as large as the furthest-thrown bits of matter and energy are.
That's not really right, though, because they exist within something else. It's a hell of a lot easier to grasp than trying to understand 26 dimensions and the math behind it, though. It hurts the head. I usually give up, spark a bowl, and go watch Spongebob.

Because seriously, I'm big enough to admit to myself that this shit's way, way out of my league. I'm a fan of math and science, but this sort of thing makes me whimper. Just imagine me as a bear on a tricycle. I'll go along with it, sure, but I'll be damned if I've really got any idea what's really going on.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3265843 -

The universe is still expanding and as such, is finite not infinite. Only GOD is infinite. If one were to travel at the 'speed of thought,' and attempt to 'penetrate' the expanding 'wall' of the 'edge,' some 12-20 billion light years across, one would have one's direct 'line' of approach curve one way or another along the curvature of space.

The 'wall' so-to-speak, expands into GOD, so-to-speak. According to Kabbalistic thought, GOD 'contracted' His/Her infinitude - a point of the Infinite Being, the size of a singularity came to form an infinitesimal Void. Into this Void the Ideas in the Mind of GOD became manifest - first as the 'Big Bang' 10 to the minus 43 seconds from NOW, then as a progressive expansion, cooling, condensation and evolution of space-time. The Cosmology in my view derives from a Theology. Physics derives from Metaphysics [prior-to-physics]. This is intuitive, descriptive and clearly not scientific, but perhaps more accurate for moderns than Mythology (Biblical or otherwise).

The bounded universe cannot be 'penetrated' physically to arrive in the Infinite which envelopes it. On the other hand, Infinity stretches ever inward as well (the Infinitely small and the Infinitely large are both Infinity and the qualifiers lose their meanings entirely. Large and small are relative terms but Infinity is always Infinity). A 'warp speed' physical vehicle will not break through some barrier into Infinity, into GOD. Even Einstein's assertion that to attain the speed of light is to attain "infinite mass," means that a measured body essentially 'becomes one with the universe,' but the universe is not GOD. Then again, the creation, expansion and collapse of the universe might occur eternally in an 'oscillating universe' theory. Hindus believe this cosmology, so here the limitless is not a matter of 'extension' but a matter of 'eternal return.' And here we are, in the Eternal present, trying to 'explain' Eternity and Infinity with our finite minds. How silly.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3265876 -

No, our observation of the universe (a tiny fragment) appears to be expanding.

This does not mean that it could not be infinite in more dimensions, or just that infinite matter (galaxies) is expanding from solitary points within an infinite space, and that our observation of this is only relative to our position within this infinite universe.

Universe implies the one encompassing all of everything. If god = infinite, so too does the universe (if there is an actual distinction between the two).

I understand your take on this, but some confusion arises when you use the term universe, then state that something exists outside and around it. Also, don't be so sure that science's accepted theory of an expanding universe is actually true, when instead it could be an expanding isolated area of matter within still an infinite encompassing universe.

Really though, we are all agnostic with this :wink:


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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3265937 -

I appreciate the reply and I certainly do not 'Know' the shape or form of the universe, but I DO NOT believe that creation is identical with the Creator. The creation is 'run through' with the Divine Immanence (PanENtheism], but form is not commensurate with Transcendence. The Transcendent is Known only to the Transcendent. We can Know the Immanent, the Small Countanence, the Infinite in the finite. The universe as 'surrounded' by GOD is not meant to be a spatial reality. I believe that the universe exists in GOD as our dreams exist in our minds. As dream stuff is unreal relative to our waking life, our waking life and universe is unreal relative to Eternal GOD. No matter how 'old' a mountain appears to a fleeting human ego, the entire geological age of planet Earth is fleeting before the Eternal GOD.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: deff]
    #3266088 -

deff, we have observed quite a LARGE section of the Unvierse to date. The age of the Universe is probably around 13.7 billion years right now. The last I read, the FARTHEST any telescope has looked is a cluster of stars about 13.2 billion light-years away from us. Those star clusters were some of the FIRST stars to exist in the Universe, about 470 million years after "Creation".

Also: we have not found any evidence, from ANY source, that the Laws of Physics behave differently in different parts of the Universe. The very idea that this COULD be true seems counter-intuitive to me: if all the Universe came from a single "point" 13.7 billion years ago...why would some parts of this "point" contain different physical laws than others?

Everything we look at insists that the laws of physics are steady throughout the universe.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3266146 -

how lovely
the Infinite in the finite, enternity in a grain of sand.
just look and you will see.
how lucky we are:)

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: kbilly]
    #3268457 -

WHO CARES WHAT THE SCIENTIFIC UNIVERSE IS. I grew up believing the universe is that which encompases everything. But now that the universe expands, contracts, ENDS I must say I will now use my old universe definition for the words the cosmos (which I consider infintite).

Even if the universe ends it must end into something else in the cosmos. This something else....----
----I am not gonna type this until I can ask gnostic a question? what do you mean by god, is it a being, a more far eastern interpretation that everything 'IS', etc.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: RedEyeSamurai]
    #3273651 -

im not 100% sure but the gnostics belive that what the christians call god (the creator of the universe we live in) isnt actually god, but a higher entity who was created by the real god. so the crhistian god isnt actually god and he/she may even have been made by another intermediatery being but i forget if thats right. this pisses the christians off which i greatly admire, in any philosophy.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3274442 -

trendal said:
I would take this as proof that free-will does NOT exist: if anything you CAN do is already DONE somewhere else...then for you to do ANYTHING changes nothing at all :wink:



When I think of free will, i think of my personal self being in power of what my outcomes will be. Sure, the universe runs on all types of variables that determine 99% of your life, but what about those random occasions when you randomly do something, or get someone to generate a random set of numbers, and happen to win the lottery?

Now with infinite numbers of universes, its obvious that it has been done exactly as it has here, because well, its infinite. I am pretty sure that there are an infinite number of 'tak's who have choses every possible outcome in life possible depending on these non-set variables, every aspect of my life that could be diffrent, well its being lived out. As are billions...no...an infinite number of lives being led exactly as mine.  Does that mean I will not be able to choose my next move? I dont think so. As far as I am concerned, I still have free will, the odds are just stacked so high that one of the people in an infinite set just like me will do the same exact thing.

Right here, Right now, I am in control.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: tak]
    #3275661 -

Space is either curved (like the 3-d shell of a 4-d sphere) or it isn't (like the 3-d shell of a 3-d rectangle)

Space is either discrete (breaks down into smallest possible units) or it isn't.

Time is either curved or it isn't.

Time is either discrete or it isn't.

If space is curved, time is curved, and both time and space are discrete, then the universe is infinite. Consider a bad text circle-shell with 2 poles (represented by !)

......!
.....(.)
....(...)
...(.....)
....(...)
.....(.)
......!

If there is an explosion (let's call it little bang) at one pole, then the force of the explosion will propel the exploded parts around the shell, until they meet up at the opposite pole. Not only will they always be travelling away from each other, they will also meet again.

If space is like this 2d model in 4 dimensions, and time is analogously like this then we are 1/2 of the way to non-infinite universe. All we need is the discrete part.

If there are smallest spacial and temporal atoms, then a universe like the circle shell is not infinite. Not only does the start of space and time connect with it's end, but there are a finite number of spacio-temporal atoms in between.

Note that research is under way to determine if our universe is like this. Some experiments with light show that our 3-d space is bent into a fourth spacial dimension (When we take lasers connecting distant triangles, the angles add up to more then 180). However, these same results are consistent with space being 3-d and gravity causing the bending. In fact, since there is no way to tell between gravity and space bending effects, we won't ever know whether our universe is bent into a fourth spacial dimension until there is a fundemental revolution on par with special relativity. This revolution may not be possible.

Anyhow, the other part of the formula is going to be solved in ten years or less. Light from very distant galaxies will travel slightly different paths over billions of light years depending on whether space is discrete or continuous. Proponents of quantum loop gravity think that these experiments will show space is discrete (I am among them, although in reality, I don't know nearly enough physics for my vote to be anything other then a nearly blind guess). This gravational theory is a competitor of string theory. If the QLG people are right, we are 1/2 of the way to a finite universe.

Now I want to address a couple logical errors in your post:

"That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities."

This is not true. If there is an infinite number of monkeys, then one will reproduce all the works of shakespear in chronological ordrer. True, but if there are an infinite number of monkeys typing on keyboards without the letter R then the infinite first class does not imply the infinite second class. With space, consider tiled space. Space can be tiled with squares or triangles, both are possible. However, if space is tiled with infinite squares, then there are still some non-realized possibilities (namely, tiled triangled space). Likewise, if there is an infinte 1 dimensional space (a line) then there are still some non-realized possibilities, 2-d planes, for example.

Also, similar to square tiled planes, there could be an infinite sequence, like 1/3 where there is an infinite, but only one realized possibility.

"Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives. So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds."

This is ridiculous. First, even if there are infinite worlds contained at some microlevel, our death would not impact these worlds at all. But, there aren't infinite worlds within us at the micro-level. This gets into a little bit of speculative quantum physics, but the way people might argue is that since are only in a position to postulate in our ontologies things we have knowledge about, and we only have knowledge about things we can bounce light off of, then anything to small to bounce is outside of our ontology (ontology = roughly what exists).


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"I am eternally free"

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: tomk]
    #3275986 -

"Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?"

its called gravity. ither the big bang was big enough and stuff will fly apart far enough so that the the total mass/total gravity isntr big enough to keep it together or it will slow down under gravity until it starts coming back again and collapsing.

just because you cant grasp it doesnt mean its infinite.

im just reffering to our universe - eg all the matter around us to the edge where there is none.

there could be others

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