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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: RedEyeSamurai]
    #3273651 -

im not 100% sure but the gnostics belive that what the christians call god (the creator of the universe we live in) isnt actually god, but a higher entity who was created by the real god. so the crhistian god isnt actually god and he/she may even have been made by another intermediatery being but i forget if thats right. this pisses the christians off which i greatly admire, in any philosophy.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: trendal]
    #3274442 -

trendal said:
I would take this as proof that free-will does NOT exist: if anything you CAN do is already DONE somewhere else...then for you to do ANYTHING changes nothing at all :wink:




When I think of free will, i think of my personal self being in power of what my outcomes will be. Sure, the universe runs on all types of variables that determine 99% of your life, but what about those random occasions when you randomly do something, or get someone to generate a random set of numbers, and happen to win the lottery?

Now with infinite numbers of universes, its obvious that it has been done exactly as it has here, because well, its infinite. I am pretty sure that there are an infinite number of 'tak's who have choses every possible outcome in life possible depending on these non-set variables, every aspect of my life that could be diffrent, well its being lived out. As are billions...no...an infinite number of lives being led exactly as mine.  Does that mean I will not be able to choose my next move? I dont think so. As far as I am concerned, I still have free will, the odds are just stacked so high that one of the people in an infinite set just like me will do the same exact thing.

Right here, Right now, I am in control.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: tak]
    #3275661 -

Space is either curved (like the 3-d shell of a 4-d sphere) or it isn't (like the 3-d shell of a 3-d rectangle)

Space is either discrete (breaks down into smallest possible units) or it isn't.

Time is either curved or it isn't.

Time is either discrete or it isn't.

If space is curved, time is curved, and both time and space are discrete, then the universe is infinite. Consider a bad text circle-shell with 2 poles (represented by !)

......!
.....(.)
....(...)
...(.....)
....(...)
.....(.)
......!

If there is an explosion (let's call it little bang) at one pole, then the force of the explosion will propel the exploded parts around the shell, until they meet up at the opposite pole. Not only will they always be travelling away from each other, they will also meet again.

If space is like this 2d model in 4 dimensions, and time is analogously like this then we are 1/2 of the way to non-infinite universe. All we need is the discrete part.

If there are smallest spacial and temporal atoms, then a universe like the circle shell is not infinite. Not only does the start of space and time connect with it's end, but there are a finite number of spacio-temporal atoms in between.

Note that research is under way to determine if our universe is like this. Some experiments with light show that our 3-d space is bent into a fourth spacial dimension (When we take lasers connecting distant triangles, the angles add up to more then 180). However, these same results are consistent with space being 3-d and gravity causing the bending. In fact, since there is no way to tell between gravity and space bending effects, we won't ever know whether our universe is bent into a fourth spacial dimension until there is a fundemental revolution on par with special relativity. This revolution may not be possible.

Anyhow, the other part of the formula is going to be solved in ten years or less. Light from very distant galaxies will travel slightly different paths over billions of light years depending on whether space is discrete or continuous. Proponents of quantum loop gravity think that these experiments will show space is discrete (I am among them, although in reality, I don't know nearly enough physics for my vote to be anything other then a nearly blind guess). This gravational theory is a competitor of string theory. If the QLG people are right, we are 1/2 of the way to a finite universe.

Now I want to address a couple logical errors in your post:

"That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities."

This is not true. If there is an infinite number of monkeys, then one will reproduce all the works of shakespear in chronological ordrer. True, but if there are an infinite number of monkeys typing on keyboards without the letter R then the infinite first class does not imply the infinite second class. With space, consider tiled space. Space can be tiled with squares or triangles, both are possible. However, if space is tiled with infinite squares, then there are still some non-realized possibilities (namely, tiled triangled space). Likewise, if there is an infinte 1 dimensional space (a line) then there are still some non-realized possibilities, 2-d planes, for example.

Also, similar to square tiled planes, there could be an infinite sequence, like 1/3 where there is an infinite, but only one realized possibility.

"Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives. So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds."

This is ridiculous. First, even if there are infinite worlds contained at some microlevel, our death would not impact these worlds at all. But, there aren't infinite worlds within us at the micro-level. This gets into a little bit of speculative quantum physics, but the way people might argue is that since are only in a position to postulate in our ontologies things we have knowledge about, and we only have knowledge about things we can bounce light off of, then anything to small to bounce is outside of our ontology (ontology = roughly what exists).


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

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Re: How can the universe not be infinate? [Re: tomk]
    #3275986 -

"Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?"

its called gravity. ither the big bang was big enough and stuff will fly apart far enough so that the the total mass/total gravity isntr big enough to keep it together or it will slow down under gravity until it starts coming back again and collapsing.

just because you cant grasp it doesnt mean its infinite.

im just reffering to our universe - eg all the matter around us to the edge where there is none.

there could be others

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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