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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Does Canada lean towards the Left?
    #3164935 - 09/22/04 03:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Does Canada lean towards the Left-Wing? And when I ask that
question I mean it to include Canadian citizen's attitudes, Canadian
laws, Canadian media, Canadian education, etc... I would like to
hear from some actual Canadians or people who have extensive
experience being in Canada.

If this is true...why do you think it is that way?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3164975 - 09/22/04 03:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I think it would be hard to come up with an objective measure of left vs. right. It's all relative. It also depends on whether you're talking on a social or fiscal scale. Fiscally, Canada seems to be to the left of the US, but to the right of Sweden. Socially, it seems to be to the left of the US, but to the right of the Netherlands.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3164987 - 09/22/04 03:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Silversoul had the right idea: we're only really a bunch of Lefties when you stick us along side the USA :smirk:

Most Canadians believe in things like public-access health care and social-support for our fellow countrymen.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165193 - 09/22/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

An economic put it in these terms for me. On a scale for pure capitalism we score an 87 out of 100. Where as the states would score around 92.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3166726 - 09/22/04 10:11 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

As someone who was born in the Canadian Arctic, has lived in all three of the Northern Territories and seven of the ten provinces (as well as having spent a hell of a lot of time in one of the three I haven't lived in as well as brief stays in the other two) in the first three and a half decades of my time on this lovely planet, I can say without fear of contradiction that Canada is no question far to the left of the US.

Canada is a great country to live in if you are a loser. It is a horrible country to live in if you are proficient. Note that this does mean to say that those who live in Canada are all losers -- just that if you are a loser Canada will look after you cradle to grave. The tax burden is confiscatory, the used-to-be-much-vaunted socialized medical system is an umitigated disaster, the Quebecers are holding the rest of the country hostage (for over three decades now) and their military is an international laughingstock.

I left Canada almost seventeen years ago, and I cannot see myself ever moving back there. It's as bad as Germany and almost as bad as Sweden. Give it ten more years and it may even surpass Sweden. I laugh out loud when I see many of the American posters here dreaming of moving to Canada. If they ever do, they have a rude -- a very rude -- awakening in store for them.

Canada once had enormous potential. They pissed it away with their socialist leanings. I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of Pierre Elliot Trudeau, may he rot in hell for all eternity.

Canada is an object lesson of how bad ideology can destroy a country with every possible advantage available to it. All political science students should be required to do an in-depth study of Canadian history. There are multiple lessons to be learned.

pinky


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3166878 - 09/22/04 10:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Pinky, I've observed this too during my time up north.
But I've never experienced or even heard of much critique coming from Canadians themselves (you're one exception). I mean I see lots of social uprising here and throughout most of Europe. I know tons of brits and french and germans, all of whom have nasty things to say about their countries. Canadians seem so damn solid in their nationalism. They see Canada as being so ideal. Do you agree with this? Is the dissent just not out in the open? Are Canadians just trying to look pretty to impressionable young Americans like myself?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Gijith]
    #3166929 - 09/22/04 10:53 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I've met Canadians at ISIL conferences who have opinions similar to Pinky's on the subject.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Gijith]
    #3167140 - 09/22/04 11:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Gijith writes:

Canadians seem so damn solid in their nationalism. They see Canada as being so ideal. Do you agree with this? Is the dissent just not out in the open?

The major problem is that the Canadian government has been raping the pocketbooks of the average Canadian for so long that those who have managed to make it to this point just pray (against all odds) that they will finally get some of it back. Those of my generation are hoping that in their old age they'll be able to recoup a fraction of what they have had seized from them by using their "free" medical benefits (never mind that the likelihood of dying while waiting in line for those benefits is substantial) and Canada Pension Plan (Canuck version of Social Security -- even more bankrupt than the US SS; and yes I know that is hard to believe) payouts paid out in increasingly devalued coinage.

The younger generation is too ignorant to realize the even worse bind they are in because they have been educated in Canadian government schools -- even more to the left (and yes, I realize that is hard to believe) and even more strangled by teachers' unions (and yes I realize that is hard to believe) than the US government school system. And of course there is the standard Canadian inferiority complex/bigotry to all things American which makes it almost impossible for Canucks to admit that in some things the Yanks have got it right and the seal-clubbers have got it wrong. It's a complex yet devastatingly self-delusional mix.

Are Canadians just trying to look pretty to impressionable young Americans like myself?

Nope. They don't care (or have managed to convince themselves that they don't -- same same) what the Yanks think. The majority of Canucks honestly believe their way of life is superior. In this regard, they are a lot closer to their British heritage than are Americans (or even Australians).

Canadians as a whole (there are exceptions) are much, much more "sheeple" than Americans. Canadians treat government as a combination nanny/Santa Claus/firm father/loving mother/dispenser-of-all-wisdom-and-favors than Americans as a whole. The typical American distrusts his government. The typical Canadian loves his government. Government can fix all problems, don'tcha know.

pinky


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3168265 - 09/23/04 02:41 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Left can work
Right can work
Middle can work


Edited by Gijith (09/23/04 03:28 AM)


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3168345 - 09/23/04 02:54 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Canada is a great country to live in if you are a loser.




You suck. It should be obvious by now that most if not all governments are definitely NOT a distinct refection of it's people as they may once have been. Even if they were, that definitely wouldn't say a whole lot of good for the American people either now would it?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3169044 - 09/23/04 08:41 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Pinky our taxes here in Canada are fairly close to those in the US from what I can see. I've tried comparing my pay slip to friends from the US who make a similar income and they actually pay more out from their paycheques than I do!

The reason you don't see much "dissent" here in Canada is because most of us actually like living here. Canada is a middle-class country, for the most part. You don't see as large of a gap between the rich and the poor as you do elsewhere. We also tend to have this silly little idea that health care SHOULD be public-access, and we don't happen to mind paying taxes to see this happen. No, our system is not perfect...it needs work but at least we're trying.

Talk about our military? Yeah, we barely have one! Why? Well that's an easy answer: what the hell do we need a large standing army for? So we can go fight useless wars like our neighbor to the south? We have no real enemies that I know of, and our mainland has not been attacked since the US tried to invade in the early 1800's! So please, pinky, explain to me why we should fund a large standing army when we don't need one! I thought you were for minimalized government and no-taxes. How do you propose to pay for such an expenditure? Oh...you probably want to get rid of Health Care, eh? Well as I'm sure you know, such a thought is quite opposed to the wishes of most Canadians :wink:

If your goal in life is to amass as much wealth as possible and not give a damn about your fellow man while to do so...then Canada probably isn't the right place for you.

If you would rather just live; if you have compassion for your fellow man and would rather see HIM live than have a few extra bucks in your pocket; if you would rather strive for PEACE than prepare for WAR...then Canada might be the place for you.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3169557 - 09/23/04 12:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Pinky our taxes here in Canada are fairly close to those in the US from what I can see.

Not even close. No contest. The US wins hugely in that area. See this thread -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Note the example I gave was for a Canadian making the staggering sum of a whopping US $18,000 annually. This is the approximate cost of such famous luxury vehicles as the Ford Focus. Basically, if you are a single guy making that princely salary and you are living at home paying zero room and board, the Canadian government graciously allows you to keep enough that if you saved every single penny for two entire years, you could buy a new compact car for cash. Of course you'd have no money left over for insurance or gas or oil changes, but what the hey.

Double your income to a less-than-stellar US $36,000 and the taxes get even higher. Triple it to US $54,000 and it gets to the point of absurdity.

pinky


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3169661 - 09/23/04 01:22 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

pinky writes:

Not even close. No contest. The US wins hugely in that area.

I hope shroomism doesn't mind me posting this info, but he posted it in OTD so I doubt he will.

My paycheque:
Gross Pay: $804.00

Federal Tax: $95.13
EI: $15.92
CPP: $33.19
---------------
Net Pay: $659.76

Shroomism's:
Gross pay - $810

Deductions
Federal Income Tax $-58.93
Social Security Tax $-52.35
Medicare Tax $-15.75
VA State Income Tax $-28.62
---------------------
Net Pay - $654.35

As you can see, we may pay more income tax here in Canada than in the US, but int he US they also have to pay for SS/Medicare plus their state tax. As you can see, the result is nearly the same level of taxation. Yes, I know that if I were to make a lot more money I would be in a higher tax bracket and would pay a higher % of tax, but is it not the same in the US?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3169726 - 09/23/04 01:47 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Taken from: http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/International_Tax_Comparisons.pdf

(for the 2001 tax year)

Canada:
Federal Basic Personal Exemption: $7,412
Low rate (below $30,754): 16%
Medium rate ($30,754-$61,508): 22%
Medium-high rate ($61,508-$100,000): 26%
High rate (over $100,000): 29%

USA:
Federal Basic Personal Exemption: $7,092.04
Low rate (below $70,452.79): 15%
Medium-low rate ($70,452.79-$170,286.88): 27.5%
Medium rate ($170,286.88-$259,521.89): 30.5%
Medium-high rate ($259,521.89-$463,476.47): 35.5%
High rate (over $463,476.47): 39.1%


We Canadians really take a hit with income in the "medium" level, yet as soon as you go over 70k in the US you pay a higher tax rate than we do here in Canada.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3169830 - 09/23/04 02:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

pinksharkmark writes:

never mind that the likelihood of dying while waiting in line for those benefits is substantial

Can I see some proof of this, that the chance of dying in Canada while waiting in line for medical care is "substantial"? If you go to a hospital with a life-threatening condition/injury you will be into the ER quite fast (ahead of anyone waiting with less dangerous injuries).

I've often wondered about your vitriolic attitude towards Canada and the Canadian government in particular. Were you wronged in some way by the government, pinky? The DR doesn't have an extradition treaty with Canada, does it?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3170375 - 09/23/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Very good.. but you left out the fact that my taxes did NOT include health care, while yours did. I was paying for health care for older people (medicaid) when I did not have my own, which I very much needed. Health care I will never see.

So the bottom line is - I made more Gross pay than you that month, took home less Net pay, and had no insurance, while you did.

Come to think of it, I don't even know what my taxes pay for.. I certainly don't get any benefits from the government, besides getting raped by them financially as often as possible. 

What a great system the american system is  :mad2:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3170428 - 09/23/04 04:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I would definitely rather pay taxes to get unlimited health-care than pay taxes to fund a large offensive military complex :wink:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3170449 - 09/23/04 04:53 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I wish I had health care and didn't have to pay an extra 100 a month for it that I can't afford.
hey when was the last time you saw a doctor.. for me it was about 7 years ago.
are you crazy I can't afford health care.. the last time I went to the hospital for being violently ill, I ended up paying $1500 out of my pocket for a saline IV, which put me in debt for about 2 years.
I refuse to go to a hospital now, even if my leg was cut off and bleeding profusely.. suck it up and stick a rag on it. I can't afford no doctor.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3170478 - 09/23/04 05:02 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I saw a doc about 4 weeks ago for a case of strep throat. For anyone who's wondering about "waiting times"...I showed up at the clinic and was in an examination room within 5 minutes. I waited in the exam room for another 5 minutes or so until the doc came in. He gave me a quick checkup and prescribed some antibiotics.

Other than that, I try to get in to see a doc at least once a year for a physical and general checkup. I also go see my allergist once every year or two. I haven't (luckily) been to the hospital in about 2 years now, but I certainly haven't had to fork over any cash at any of my visits (let alone $1500!!).


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does Canada lean towards the Left? [Re: Phred]
    #3170498 - 09/23/04 05:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

pinky writes:

Note the example I gave was for a Canadian making the staggering sum of a whopping US $18,000 annually. This is the approximate cost of such famous luxury vehicles as the Ford Focus. Basically, if you are a single guy making that princely salary and you are living at home paying zero room and board, the Canadian government graciously allows you to keep enough that if you saved every single penny for two entire years, you could buy a new compact car for cash. Of course you'd have no money left over for insurance or gas or oil changes, but what the hey.

Well let's see:

$18,000 USD = $23,038.11 CDN

$23,038.11 is in the "low" tax bracket so income tax is at 16% which works out to $3686.10 in taxes.

For the sake of clarity, we'll express this in weekly sums: $443.05 gross income per week, minus about $70.88 income tax is $372.17 net income per week (NOT including CPP and EI).

So it would take about 62 weeks to save up for that "luxury vehicle" you've always wanted. That's about one year, two months, and two weeks....not "two entire years".

Without going through all the math here, in the US you would be charged 15% income tax on that 18000 you made, so we're looking at about $294.23 net income per week (NOT including social security, medicare, or state tax) which works out to about $4 less than you would make here in Canada.

ie: It would take a whole of ONE WEEK less to save up for that nice Ford Focus :smirk:


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