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Offlinenanananotehead
The Will or TheWay

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 450
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Taxes: Canada Vs. USA
    #3308939 - 11/02/04 11:47 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Whenever I mention possibly moving to Canada in the future (I'm french canadian and want to head back to the "mother land") the first thing people try to force on me is the fact that canadians have to pay an outrageous amount of income taxes and federal taxes each year. Does anyone know the differences in the average %'s of taxes paid by the average middle class citizen of each country? Do canadians really get "screwed over"?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3308950 - 11/02/04 11:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Rich Canadians pay a lot, I know that.

It is hard to get a professional athelete to move to Canada, because they pay sooo much of their check to tax.


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3308959 - 11/02/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Here's a decent thread where pinky and trendal went through the numbers:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3164935/page//fpart/1/vc/1


I've considered moving up there. The Canadians I know love it. I visit often and always enjoy myself tremendously... But I'm not sure what to believe. If possible, I might do some geo research up there next year, so I guess I'll get a better taste of it then.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

Edited by Gijith (11/02/04 11:58 AM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3309019 - 11/02/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Canada is essentially what I would call a "Nanny State." You pay high taxes, and in exchange, the government coddles you and provides every little thing for you to make sure you avoid having to face the consequences of bad decisions. Personally, I prefer a government that treats me like an adult, but I guess if you like to be dependent on the state, go for it. They don't have it to the degree that Sweden does, but more so than we have in the States.

Actually, in some ways I'd prefer Canada, in that they tend to have more social freedom, even if they do have very little economic freedom. So that's another trade-off to consider. I'd understand such a decision, and despite my disgust for socialism, I could personally see myself moving to Canada if the American government became too restrictive of personal freedoms.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3309162 - 11/02/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Well we pay sales tax on most things we buy: its 7 or 8% in some provinces and 15% in others (Ontario, for example).

On top of that we, of course, pay income tax. Income tax ranges (on a federal level only, we also pay provincial income tax) from 16% for income under $35,000 to 29% for income over $113,804. Provincial rates vary. For my province, Ontario, TOTAL income tax rates (federal+provincial) range from about 22% to about 40%.

A good page to check out for info on all this is here:
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm

Hope that helps! We pay about the same in income tax (at least for those with lower income levels) as you do in the USA, but we tax the rich quite a bit more here. I don't mind paying a little more to get the services I do. I really don't understand ideas like "nanny state"...as the government certainly doesn't provide "every little thing" for me. I pay them money, they give me unlimited access to health care, good roads to travel on, and all the other usual services that western govermnents provide (employment insurance and the like).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: silversoul7]
    #3309266 - 11/02/04 01:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)


Canada is essentially what I would call a "Nanny State." You pay
high taxes, and in exchange, the government coddles you


It sounds as if on a 1 to 10 scale as far a "nanniness" goes, Canada
is an 8 and the U.S. is a 5.

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Offlinenanananotehead
The Will or TheWay

Registered: 03/23/04
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3309292 - 11/02/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks a bunch Trendal! In your opinion, what are some great citys and towns to visit in ontario?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3309363 - 11/02/04 01:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Definitely Toronto! Wild city with a ton of stuff to do. I've heard that the Stones like to chill out in Toronto, and used to cause a ruckus back in the day. Ottawa is a nice city, too, and great if you want to see all the government buildings and such. Niagara Falls is always a site, for a few minutes, if you've never seen it. That's just Southern Ontario (the province of Ontario is pretty big) but there's not a whole lot up in Northern Ontario except forest, lakes, and rocks (stunning, though, if you enjoy nature).

Though to be honest...British Columbia is where it's at, these days. It's hard to find someone under 30 who wouldn't mind moving out to BC :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: trendal]
    #3309452 - 11/02/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Toronto is a great city, but it's filled with SARS and Canoodians... :mad:


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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Offlinenanananotehead
The Will or TheWay

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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3309466 - 11/02/04 02:06 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Why is BC the "hot spot"?


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3309492 - 11/02/04 02:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

bc's great but our goverment is a bunch of bandits. i too disagree with "nanny state". we pay more fr better service and they at least pretend to listen, seemingly, more than the states. but they dont baby anyone.

bc is a hot spot cause it has everything. probably the best skiingin in canada, surfing, rock climbing, caving, countless other outdoor activities. and if city life is for you there are a few bigger cities that are pretty different from eac other and are all pretty cool, for a city. i can drive 5 minutes and be in the mountains looking over the ocean in deep rainforest. its a nice place unfortunatly its getting taken a little bit at a time.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Offlinenanananotehead
The Will or TheWay

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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: kadakuda]
    #3309549 - 11/02/04 02:23 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

so ontario cant really compare with southern bc? is marijuana dealt with in the same way in these two provinces or differently?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3309566 - 11/02/04 02:25 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nanananotehead said:
Why is BC the "hot spot"?





That's why.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3309643 - 11/02/04 02:37 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

The enforcement of marijuana laws changes from place to place, and mostly depends on the individual cops who happen to catch you. I haven't been out to BC, so someone from there will have to fill you in on the situation there. Here in Ontario it is fairly common to be let off with a warning (and lose your buds) if you don't have too much on you. I've also had friends growing who got raided and just got a warning from the cops who showed up (he only had a few plants, 5 I think...more will get you in trouble guarunteed). From my personal experience, your chances are pretty high (pun) that if you get caught with a bag of weed you'll be let off. Don't quote me on that, though :smirk:


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: silversoul7]
    #3309645 - 11/02/04 02:37 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you canadians for defending against the "nanny state" claim!


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: oggleman]
    #3311002 - 11/02/04 06:44 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

its totally a cop thing.  we've been bust by my house with tons of beer (were quite obviously underage back then) and bong/pipe/tins layed out all over teh deck at night.  cop comes says this is a dawn to dusk part, we shoot the shit a bit then he says we need to leave before he starts writing liquor tickets.  1 hour south where i used to live high school kids were literally handcuffed and put in jail till tehir gaurdians came to pick tehm up, and they would get a record...no matter what.  it is totally a place to place thing.  canada cane be great and canada can be like the more right wing america.  it totally depends who the cop is.

silversoul-  i liek to think theres a little more that weed and mushrooms to visit bc for...but whatever gets people to spend money :smile:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3315912 - 11/03/04 04:40 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It varies from province to province, but yes, Canadians definitely get screwed over. A single male making the equivalent of US $18,000 annually will see just under half his money stolen by government if he lives in Ontario, just over half of it stolen if he lives in Quebec. And yes -- you read that right -- I am not talking about $180,000 I am talking about $18,000 annually. Eighteen thousand dollars.

If you're working at a job where you are making real money (like maybe US $40,000 annually), that figure quickly surpasses 60%.

As for all these comments about Canadians having more "social freedom", I'd really like to see someone give at least one concrete example of a social freedom Canadians have that Americans don't.

If you want to move to Canada, go for it. There are nice things about living in Canada. But you will be financially far worse off, medically far worse off, and the Canadian winters suck big time, especially if you intend to live in Quebec.


pinky


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Phred]
    #3316015 - 11/03/04 05:17 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I pay over $150/month for health insurance. If instead of paying that to an insurance company it was factored into my monthly taxes I don't see a huge difference between the US and Canada.

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Offlinenanananotehead
The Will or TheWay

Registered: 03/23/04
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: newuser1492]
    #3316086 - 11/03/04 05:32 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I must be missing something here, i looked at the site suggested http://users.rcn.com/srgc/training.htm and it doesnt look like people in Ontario pay 50% for taxes. It looks like people in Quebec are getting raped though.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: newuser1492]
    #3316089 - 11/03/04 05:33 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I enjoy taking my family to the physician of my choice and recieving the treatment of my choice. I also like having access to more experimental medicine and higher quality care in case of something serious. I work hard for my money and i deserve to spend that money on quality healthcare.

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Anonymous

Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Catalysis]
    #3316286 - 11/03/04 06:22 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

no, you should work hard so that some politician can force you to contribute to some grand vision he has.  :wink:

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: ]
    #3316313 - 11/03/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

no, you should work hard so that some politician can force you to contribute to some grand vision he has.

Except this isn't the grand vision of a single politician, or even of ALL the politicians in Canada. Time and time again...election after election...health care is the number 1 topic for voting Canadians. We love having universal health care. If we didn't, we wouldn't vote for it :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Phred]
    #3316441 - 11/03/04 06:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

i pay about 22% to taxes.  as much as i bitch about our gov its only to make it better.  we still do have a decent system.  ive been down in teh states and many of the family and some friends live there.  as far as education and health care goes...i cant see how anyone could possibly compare teh 2 countries.  we may or may not pay similar amounts for health care (totally depending on individual, theres no way to compare as a whole) but form the times ive been to US hosptials and what my family tells me canada is about 20 tims better.  teh difference is the workers down south get paid much more (wonder where that money comes from?  the injured perhaps :smirk:).  in fact there are a shit load of canadians going to school here (because schooling is way cheaper compared to there) and move down south to work.  teh gov is actually really fuckign good with students (in comparison!) and loaning them money (mostly provincial) and such.  i personally would like to see a "if we help out and offer inexpensive education you gotta saty in country for work for x amount of years".  got mixed feelings but i dont really agree with our education money going to some other country. 

if anyone is looking into health care take a look at Quebecs.  very fine example, also take a boo at how our lovely feds treated tehm...and we wonder why almost all teh seats tehre are bloc :smirk:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: trendal]
    #3316481 - 11/03/04 07:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
no, you should work hard so that some politician can force you to contribute to some grand vision he has.

Except this isn't the grand vision of a single politician, or even of ALL the politicians in Canada. Time and time again...election after election...health care is the number 1 topic for voting Canadians. We love having universal health care. If we didn't, we wouldn't vote for it :smirk:



Who is this "we"?  Do you mean the majority?  Obviously if it keeps getting brought up, there are many who are unsatisfied with it.  By what right does the majority get to impose this financial burden on that minority?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: silversoul7]
    #3316827 - 11/03/04 08:03 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

no right but thats what our government does as does your. frankly id rather tehm spend stupidly large amounts of money on somthing the majority actually does believe in than on a war the majoirty, may or may not, believe. maybe it doesnt fit you or your countries needs but its a very apperent that as far as things go education and health care are top topics here in canada, and most want them to be public.

and yes it is brought up becuase tehre are problems, but in comparisons to other systems there are very few flaws. seems teh biggest bitch fit is from nurses/doctors not getting enough $ and people having to wait longer cause they cant pay for more nurses/doctors. the main problem is the less usefull people (ie the ones at the top aka admins) arnt willing to take much needed pay cuts and the overworked sometimes underpayed get pissy about it.

"canada health care system" cant really be discussed in depth too much as most of it is provincial matters.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: kadakuda]
    #3317938 - 11/03/04 11:35 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

kadakuda writes:

i pay about 22% to taxes.

No you don't. Add up your federal income tax, provincial income tax, federal sales tax and provincial sales tax. Next, toss in your compulsory premiums for employment insurance and Canada Pension Plan. Finally, add in any premiums for provincial health care plans (maybe in BC there are none yet, but in Ontario there are) as well as the portion of your rent that goes to paying your landlord's property taxes.

That will at least double your 22% figure -- presuming you make no more than double the minimum wage. At anything beyond that, you're at fifty per cent at the minimum.



pinky


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OfflinePed
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Phred]
    #3318013 - 11/03/04 11:51 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Personally, I don't mind paying higher taxes for the higher quality of life I enjoy in Canada. Our taxes might go into terrible things like sponsorship scandals, ritzy hotels and needless vacations for our weasly politicians, but at least they don't finance plunderous occupations of sovereign nations. Our entire political process might resemble an episode of Mr. Bean, but at least the consequences of it's failings don't directly translate into enormous loss of human life, or the violation of basic human rights and freedoms. It's nice that we have up-to-date communications and transportation system too. Oh, and the public schools. Everyone has access to two or three of those at least. Yeah, in the absence of an attractive alternative, I'd gladly pay half my income for all that.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Ped]
    #3318052 - 11/03/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Ped writes:

Personally, I don't mind paying higher taxes for the higher quality of life I enjoy in Canada.

The higher quality of life in Canada (assuming it is in fact higher -- a debatable point) is not due to the confiscatory level of taxes.

Our entire political process might resemble an episode of Mr. Bean, but at least the consequences of it's failings don't directly translate into enormous loss of human life, or the violation of basic human rights and freedoms.

Having at least half of your property taken from you forcibly doesn't count as a violation of your rights or freedoms? If you say so.

Oh, and the public schools. Everyone has access to two or three of those at least.

Big whoop. Canadian schools sucked when I was passing through them four decades ago and from everything I've read they're worse now. I don't see this as an advantage, frankly.

I notice you fail to comment on the disastrous state of the Canadian "health care" system. Wonder why that might be?

pinky


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Ped]
    #3318096 - 11/04/04 12:08 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

>blah blah taxes are bad

>blah blah we like the benefits

>blah blah taxes are bad

>blah blah we like the benefits

>blah blah....

and so it goes.
let's all just play a game of dodgeball and figure out who's right that way.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Gijith]
    #3318404 - 11/04/04 02:07 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

lol. schools have gotten WAY better man. im currently in a different system because i dropped out of highschool and it really didnt work. it did suck, but now there are many different options instead of public/private schools in the classic sense. im doing something called SIDES which is an at your own pace through mail/computer type courses. not great but it is definatly the best system ive tried out.

as for taxes, im only going income tax. and yes it would be over 50% as is if i counted every other charge that is paid.

health care has lots of issues, but it is still, at ground level, fairly decent in my opinion. all comparisons aside i can go down to any hosopital here and get medical attention for free with out id...and i have had to in the past. now in direct comparison with a nurse friend of mine in austin texas (now in yakima, WA) that doesnt happen unles sits very serious. she has told about some of the cases they have turned down because of lack of insurance. int eh grand scheme of things its nothing but the compassion level or something is hugely different.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: silversoul7]
    #3318731 - 11/04/04 06:53 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Who is this "we"? Do you mean the majority? Obviously if it keeps getting brought up, there are many who are unsatisfied with it. By what right does the majority get to impose this financial burden on that minority?




It keeps getting brought up because we all understand that the system NEEDS WORK. Yet time and time again the polls/votes show that the LARGE majority of Canadians support a pupblicly funded universal health care system. We're not forcing anyone to stay in Canada. If someone doesn't like paying higher taxes for health care, then can EASILY move down to the US and live without universal health care.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: nanananotehead]
    #3319065 - 11/04/04 09:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, I'd rather have my tax dollars paying for welfare than a perpetual warfare state.

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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: Vvellum]
    #3319304 - 11/04/04 10:23 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

pinksharkmark more or less said:

"You're taxes are too high. You don't understand your tax system. Our government misspends our taxes so therefore your government must do the same. You really don't want universal healthcare, the evil government has convinced you you do. Your public schools sucked 4 decades ago so they must still suck. I don't care about the provincial nature of canada's health care, so I can just say 'canada's healthcare is a disaster'. I'm right, your wrong, you eat babies and kill puppies for sport."

Are you not listening to them? They all acknowledged that they pay a lot in taxes but they don't mind because they know it gets reinvested in the general welfare. Ethnocentrism anyone?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: trendal]
    #3319325 - 11/04/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Who is this "we"? Do you mean the majority? Obviously if it keeps getting brought up, there are many who are unsatisfied with it. By what right does the majority get to impose this financial burden on that minority?




It keeps getting brought up because we all understand that the system NEEDS WORK. Yet time and time again the polls/votes show that the LARGE majority of Canadians support a pupblicly funded universal health care system. We're not forcing anyone to stay in Canada. If someone doesn't like paying higher taxes for health care, then can EASILY move down to the US and live without universal health care.



God, I hate that "move somewhere else" excuse. It's just like the rednecks in South Park: "If you don't like America, you can geeeeeeeet out!" So I am forced to choose between social freedom in Canada and economic freedom in the U.S. There is no place I can go for both.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: silversoul7]
    #3319705 - 11/04/04 12:24 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

There is no place I can go for both.

Right now, nope :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Taxes: Canada Vs. USA [Re: oggleman]
    #3320122 - 11/04/04 01:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

well our government, liek any, does not reinvest all its money into good shit.  we are jsut as corupt and crooked as the next country jsut instead of war we prefer health care :smirk:

people have different priorities and it seems that the majority, or the majority that can vote, want health care.  so teh government obviously al teast makes it presentable to us.  its not great but its far from bad...everything needs work.


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