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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3075018 -

Quote:
'Overwhelming majority' can surely be contested, but I'll work under the assumption that indeed an overwhelming majority of Americans desired socialist policies in response to the great depression.



Alex may have been talking about the UK's welfare system perhaps?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3075042 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
As has been said before: In a libertarian society, groups of people can join together and form a socialist collective if they so desire.



Sounds great! Do you really think you will move any closer to this by voting for Mr Badnarik? Honest answer!


Honest answer? Absolutely.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3075318 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
By participating in this society and cooperating peacefully with others, you are engaging in such an agreement.




Why did you feel the need to explain the above, in fact your entire first paragraph when I had already stated I agreed with you upto this point?


Sorry for repeating myself. I just felt the need to backtrack a little to make my point.

Quote:
In the second part you merely confirm the fact that the idea of what constitutes a right is a highly contentious area. This very contentiousness is what leads me to believe that natural rights do not exist.


So, because there is controversy over the exact details, that makes the whole idea false? That's quite a leap of logic.

Quote:
Humans naturally have the two arms and two legs, with some exceptions. Humans natuarally have ears to hear with and eyes to see with, with some exceptions. These things bestowed by "Nature" are not contentious. They are obvious. The idea that abstract human ideas can somehow be inherent in nature is basically on the same level of thought as believing in an anthromorphic vengeful god who punishes the the wicked.


I think you're misunderstanding the use of the word "natural" here. The idea with natural rights is that that are naturally inherent within the context of society.

Quote:
How is nature being violated if a group of people get together and decide that one of the requisites of membership to their group is that everyone must contribute to the welfare of the whole without exception?


None, as long as it is voluntary. Perhaps I misread your original post about this. If so, I apologize.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3076467 -

It went from fledgling British colonies to the absolute most dominant economic power the world had ever seen in that short amount of time for very good reason

150 years? It only took Russia 20 years to go from a feudal economy to an economic powerhouse stopping the most powerful army the world has ever seen.

Today, the average American does not discern how unconstitutional the federal social welfare/safety-net programs are and does not realize that there was such a time when these things did not exist and the country prospered unbelievably.

I think the point you're missing is SOME people prospered unbelievably. The slave owners, the rich etc. The poor suffered unbelieveably. That's kinda why social welfare was considered a good idea.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3077063 -

Quote:
The idea with natural rights is that that are naturally inherent within the context of society.




Hmm I seem to remember debating with someone not so long ago who believed that natural rights were woven into the fabric of reality and existed independently of human thought...thought it was you actually, my mistake!

Quote:
None, as long as it is voluntary. Perhaps I misread your original post about this. If so, I apologize.



No apology needed. So if this group then has a member who enjoys all the same benefits of membership as the others but then decides to renege upon the welfare requirement how should the group as a whole deal with this behaviour?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3077292 -

No. A group of people could get together and one person could take control whom the group submit to either willingly or unwillingly. The permutations are endless!

what's the magic percentage then?

Non-member, outcast, convict?

Depends how nice the group as a whole are I suppose!

violence, so long as it doesn't violate the agreement made between members of any particular group, is permissible?

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #3077314 -

150 years? It only took Russia 20 years to go from a feudal economy to an economic powerhouse stopping the most powerful army the world has ever seen.

the wonders of totalitarianism. amazing what can be done with forced labor, conscription, and total disregard for the environment.

13,600,000 young russian men died (compared to 3,250,000 germans, 326,000 brits, and 295,000 americans) during the war. something tells me their recipe for victory had little to do with industrial prowess.

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3077511 -

Quote:
what's the magic percentage then?



Differs for each group I would imagine.


Quote:
violence, so long as it doesn't violate the agreement made between members of any particular group, is permissible?



Of course. Although that would be a group I would be keen to steer well clear of.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3077519 -

Of course. Although that would be a group I would be keen to steer well clear of.

well i'd imagine that you'd want to join a group that didn't permit violence between members, but what about non-members attacking your group?

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3077535 -

is it permissible for one group to attack another?

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3077605 -

If there is not a 3rd group that has authority and influences over both groups involved then any talk of whether attacking other groups is permissible becomes irrelevant. It depends on each group. I would prefer to be a part of a group that avoided violence at all costs.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3077738 -

amazing what can be done with forced labor

You're right. Thank god America wasn't built on slave labour...

13,600,000 young russian men died (compared to 3,250,000 germans, 326,000 brits, and 295,000 americans) during the war. something tells me their recipe for victory had little to do with industrial prowess.

It had a helluva lot to do with industrial prowess. You couldn't defeat the Nazi army at it's peak otherwise. The tanks were being built, the oil was being pumped etc.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3078319 -

If there is not a 3rd group that has authority and influences over both groups involved then any talk of whether attacking other groups is permissible becomes irrelevant

well let's say that there is... it's not a very far-flung assumption, i mean, there would be one group, or an amalgam of groups, that would be more powerful than the others.

is it ok for members of one group to attack non-members?

also, is it permissible for members of each group to associate (peacefully) with members of other groups?

Edited by mushmaster (09/01/04 02:36 PM)

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3078435 -

Are we straying into comparative morality here?!! The point Im making is that it is up to each group to decide how they wish to function. As there are no objective moralities or rights then each group makes up their own as they go along.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3078739 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
The idea with natural rights is that that are naturally inherent within the context of society.




Hmm I seem to remember debating with someone not so long ago who believed that natural rights were woven into the fabric of reality and existed independently of human thought...thought it was you actually, my mistake!


Yep, your mistake.

Quote:
Quote:
None, as long as it is voluntary. Perhaps I misread your original post about this. If so, I apologize.



No apology needed. So if this group then has a member who enjoys all the same benefits of membership as the others but then decides to renege upon the welfare requirement how should the group as a whole deal with this behaviour?


They should give him the option of leaving the group(note that leaving the group should not have to entail changing locations).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3079075 -

The point Im making is that it is up to each group to decide how they wish to function. As there are no objective moralities or rights then each group makes up their own as they go along.

why even worry about the *group* part?

violence between members and non-members of the group is just as acceptable as violence between members, is it not?

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3079264 -

Quote:
They should give him the option of leaving the group(note that leaving the group should not have to entail changing locations).


That would be like quitting your job but keeping your office.

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Tao]
    #3080285 -

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
They should give him the option of leaving the group(note that leaving the group should not have to entail changing locations).


That would be like quitting your job but keeping your office.


Depends. Did the group pay for his home or not?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3081131 -

Quote:
They should give him the option of leaving the group(note that leaving the group should not have to entail changing locations).



Sound like a nice bunch. If you break one of the pre-requistes for group membership in our society you end up in prison!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3081169 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
They should give him the option of leaving the group(note that leaving the group should not have to entail changing locations).



Sound like a nice bunch. If you break one of the pre-requistes for group membership in our society you end up in prison!


And you shouldn't unless you initiate force against another individual. If a person wants to peacefully leave the group, you should be allowed to do so.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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