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For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil?
    #29615461 -

I am just curious here to ask, as I am not religious.

It's one thing to say God allows evil to give people free will. But if he designed the world, why did he design landslides? Why did he design cancer and volcanos and earthquakes?

When an earthquake occurs and causes much suffering, wouldn't God have been able to foresee it and prevent it in how he designed the plates? Heck, he could certainly make it so earthquakes never occurred in the first place, with the power he has.

So why this natural evil? People aren't meant to live forever, and yet there's no reason we ought to suffer more than we otherwise could.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29615491 -

There was a time in my life where I was quite pious and religious, and the best answer I could come up with was that god designed the world and humans to act heroically. So the crisis of volcanoes, landslides, earthquakes and whatever evil you can think of, it was all for aesthetic purposes, to animate the human being into cleverness, character, heroism and courage. It's like an exam or being tested, it's to bring out your best. Crisis, heroism, courage, character, cleverness, exams and tests require mighty obstacles and events. God and mankind is in love with drama, tragedy, comedy, suspense, horror, punishment, fear. 

In my older age, after considerable reflection and exhaustion, I am pretty much an atheist. Or a Hindu or Greek, there being many Gods, Apollo, Dionysus, Shiva, all those Hindu deities. 

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Epicurus

The Danger of Heroic Striving: "The root of humanly caused evil is not man's animal nature, not territorial aggression, or innate selfishness, but our need to gain self-esteem, deny our mortality, and achieve a heroic self-image. Our desire for the best is the cause of the worst." Ernest Becker

The Nature of Heroism: "Of all things that move man, one of the principal ones is his terror of death. Heroism is first and foremost a reflex of the terror of death." Ernest Becker

The Ultimate Courage: "Genuine heroism for man is still the power to support contradictions, no matter how glaring or hopeless they may seem." Ernest Becker

Firefighters and police are prepared for evil, they are prepared to fight not if it happens, but when.  I'm sure many religious people would say that fighting the good fight is what pleases God.  God wants to see man struggle and fight heroically, as this is aesthetic pleasing.  In short, God is never a rational argument or rational belief, but rather, it's just an irrational attachment to the drama and emotions that one has been accustomed to.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29615529 -

CreonAntigone said:
It's one thing to say God allows evil to give people free will.


Not sure who's saying that, but God did not allow evil for the purpose of giving us free will.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: blessed]
    #29615680 -

blessed said:
CreonAntigone said:
It's one thing to say God allows evil to give people free will.


Not sure who's saying that, but God did not allow evil for the purpose of giving us free will.


It's the Catholic church saying this, something I was taught in my Catholic school. I'll quote the Catechism (especially 311 is relevant)

If you have a different way of looking at it I'd be interested to hear it.

Quote:
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. 174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. 175

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. 176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

  For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never    allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. ( St. Augustine, Enchiridion II, 3: PL 40, 236)

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive." 178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more", 179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.



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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone] * 2
    #29615748 -

CreonAntigone said:
I'll quote the Catechism

Quote:
God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.




Bizarre that that is in there. There is no way that can be right about anything.

There is nothing that God isnt directly and indirectly responsible for nor embodies wholely. Everything 100% is comprised of God.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: Asante]
    #29616047 -

Catholicism has had to rebuff its fair share of monists. They've sort of used rhetoric to find some kind of niche against their detractors.

In the case of evil, they see it as a lack or absence. God can't be responsible for the lack, it's just imperfection - God is perfect and something evil imperfectly embodies Him or lacks Him.

But thinking logically, if he's responsible for everything, he's responsible for the lack too.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29616160 -

A lot of these questions, in my experience, are rooted in a simple christian understanding.  Simple because a christian would say,

God is all knowing! All powerful! Completely "good!" Created everything perfectly! Cannot create evil!


Anyone who thought about it can conclude; if god created all of this god cannot be completely good or god cannot be all powerful. If evil came from a human disobeying there was something in the design that allowed for it, same if a serpant tricked them. Therefore god created the element of evil to be there.

I think there are a lot of stories out there, riddled with word and number magic, taken out of the context of their original cultures and languages, and now we try to figure out their literal meanings when the meaning was often in metaphors.

If god is god, god allows evil because it cannot be stopped by god.


--------------------
If you haven't tried uncle Ben's then you sound silly knocking on it

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29616191 -

CreonAntigone said:
It's one thing to say God allows evil to give people free will. But if he designed the world, why did he design landslides? Why did he design cancer and volcanos and earthquakes?



Wow. I really take offense to your assertion that volcanoes are evil. Have you no sense of awesomeness!?!



--------------------
All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29617028 -

CreonAntigone said:
If you have a different way of looking at it I'd be interested to hear it.


I believe that God created Evil for a reason.

This reason is tied / connected to his creating of us humans, but it's more then that, God has permitted Evil because of why he made us.

So a question please CreonAntigone.

What do you believe is the reason God made man?

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: blessed]
    #29617068 -

blessed said:
So a question please CreonAntigone.

What do you believe is the reason God made man?


I do not believe anything made man. But if I were to try and answer like a Christian, as I might have when I was younger, I'd probably say: 'out of an abundance of love, that he wants to have other beings in the world with him. Perhaps in some sense loneliness, if we can attribute that to him. Or if not, perhaps the sense of fulfillment from taking care of something else, which humans experience when they have children. God just has the same sense of wanting the best for one's offspring, as one does their own children; and the wonder at bringing life into the world.'

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29617134 -

Twisted Love is also Love.

God loves us in every way, eternally. That includes death camps, lynchings and childhood leukaemia.


Most of us are not too fond of those aspects, but we're not supposed to. We are supposed to transcend the evolutionary stages where death camps, lynchings and childhood leukaemia play a role.

Cure, untwist, hate. Cure, untwist, ill health.


The Love God has for us is not defined by Evil - but it does contain it as a minor aspect that is very prominent now because we are to transcend it.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #29617261 -

CreonAntigone said:
blessed said:
So a question please CreonAntigone.

What do you believe is the reason God made man?


I do not believe anything made man. But if I were to try and answer like a Christian, as I might have when I was younger, I'd probably say: 'out of an abundance of love, that he wants to have other beings in the world with him. Perhaps in some sense loneliness, if we can attribute that to him. Or if not, perhaps the sense of fulfillment from taking care of something else, which humans experience when they have children. God just has the same sense of wanting the best for one's offspring, as one does their own children; and the wonder at bringing life into the world.'


Personally, I don't believe that God was lonely and therefor needed us.

I believe he made us because he could (his power), he wanted to (his will) (which includes to show us his love).  Therefor your last suggestion (underlined) is the closest in my opinion.

Although God did make us to worship, praise and obey him, he also (at the same time) made us to be the recipients of his love.  You have to consider that God wanted to love men (and woman) before he actually made us.  So the question God would have considered was,

How do I show love to these humans I want to make? (remember at this time no human had yet been made)

One way God could have made us, was to make and place us all immediately in heaven (avoiding this painful reality).

Here's the reason why I believe that he didn't.  Had he done so, we would basically be robotic servants saying (preprogrammed) that we love him (and thank him) only because he made us to say it.  Also, his love for us would find very little way to demonstrate itself because although everyone is super happy, we humans would not be able to truly grasp how much he loved us.

An example is this: Most people enjoy hugging someone they love.  I believe that had God made us as just mentioned above, that we would have come into existence immediately in the Hug position.

The question is what makes a hug so special?  It's the separation prior to the Hug.

If we were made immediately in the Hug position we would not understand (or truly appreciated) what we had been given.

So do you see how the above way would fail on two fronts

1. We would not be able to truly understand God's love for us and nether be able to truly (by choice / will) love him back.

2. And for this reason God would have failed to make humans to truly love (which includes us knowing that he does).

There had to be another way.

(to be continued)

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: blessed]
    #29623162 -

Part 2

Please Note: This is what I believe and therefor I could be wrong  :thumbup: .
First let's see the dictionary meanings for these two words, Evil & Wrong.

Evil

Morally wrong, immoral, wicked.
Something that is very bad and harmful.
Morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant.
The condition of being immoral, cruel, or bad, or an act of this type.

Wrong

An injustice.
Not suitable or appropriate.
Not in accordance with what is morally right or good.
An unfair or unjust action or conduct inflicting harm without due provocation or just cause.

..............

Ok, so if my last post is correct (why God couldn't just place us right into Heaven), then what other alternatives did the God of the Bible have to demonstrate his love for the ones he created (us humans)?

Option Number 2 for God then, is to then place us directly into Hell (avoiding this painful reality).

Now clearly this would be a fail too because how the hell could we be loved by God (and truly know it) had he gone with option number 2?  Clearly, there needs to be another way (yet again).

..............

Before sharing Option 3 (my next post), I have a question please (it's why I've included the meanings of Evil & Wrong).

If the God of the Bible placed us directly into Hell (something he could in fact do), would he be Evil in doing so, and would it have been Wrong for him to do so?

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: blessed]
    #29625368 -

The Bible teaches that the first man and women that God created were deceived and tempted by a serpent and the attractiveness of the forbidden to eat or even touch "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" which lead to the promised result of curse of death to all mankind, and after getting kicked out of the delightful garden in eden in the east, God than cursed the ground with thorns as well as man to work all his days of his life by the sweat of his brows and the women to feel her periods in pain as well as in birthing children, while the serpent got cursed to crawl all his days on his belly eating the dust of the ground and will strike mans heel but he will crush his head in life's future workings.

I believe it's a symbolic story, it was always supposed to be both a symbolic story and one that teaches humanities true origin story and the mess were in, sort of like I am Adam and Eve, and you are Adam and Eve, we are all Adam and Eve.

Interpretations of what it means and what and who each character represent is up to either tradition or dogma, or the reader/hearer whoever that might be.

Reincarnation/rebirth into animal realms or otherwise other worldly realms and beings could explain our situation as we see it on earth thus far too.

Jesus showed how a truly good man lives and has real God desired and lead success on earth as one of its creatures. The book of Job paints God's creative force in action and just how we suffer. Look for sermons on these subjects, books with commentary, and remember, always practice honesty with yourself and question a lot.


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: saintdextro]
    #29625509 -

Are humans not a natural evil? How does anyone deal with the problem of evil? One of the worst problems ever. I guess most people try to ignore it. Reminder the elite class are cannibals, As are many chimpanzees. Gnostics solve the evil problem by saying sure god and this world is evil but there is an even higher god and that god is also is your innermost self.  This is something of what the snake in the garden said. Why did god not want us to know good and evil? Because he wanted to save us from the hell of knowing good and evil. This world isn’t so bad guys.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: mt cleverest]
    #29625550 -

mt cleverest said:
Are humans not a natural evil? How does anyone deal with the problem of evil? One of the worst problems ever. I guess most people try to ignore it. Reminder the elite class are cannibals, As are many chimpanzees. Gnostics solve the evil problem by saying sure god and this world is evil but there is an even higher god and that god is also is your innermost self.  This is something of what the snake in the garden said. Why did god not want us to know good and evil? Because he wanted to save us from the hell of knowing good and evil. This world isn’t so bad guys.


There's a Wikipedia page on the word "contentment", it talks concisely and pleasantly on mindfulness to equanimity on dealing with the dualities in life and staying in the present moment with non-judgmental awareness. Think about it, knowledge of good and evil, our evolved sense and volition we have now for thousands of years of desire and aversion, particularly the harm caused by our self-protective desires and aversions, remove and abandon it, that's where the saints and yogies point to where the eternal, infinite, truth, bliss, freedom and peace, (love too) abide and invite you to repose in glory united as one with all in it.

Seriously, check out that Wikipedia page on "contentment", a good read. :wink:


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: saintdextro]
    #29625867 -

saintdextro said:
The Bible teaches that the first man and women that God created were deceived and tempted by a serpent and the attractiveness of the forbidden to eat or even touch "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" which lead to the promised result of curse of death to all mankind, and after getting kicked out of the delightful garden in eden in the east, God than cursed the ground with thorns as well as man to work all his days of his life by the sweat of his brows and the women to feel her periods in pain as well as in birthing children, while the serpent got cursed to crawl all his days on his belly eating the dust of the ground and will strike mans heel but he will crush his head in life's future workings.

I believe it's a symbolic story, it was always supposed to be both a symbolic story and one that teaches humanities true origin story and the mess were in, sort of like I am Adam and Eve, and you are Adam and Eve, we are all Adam and Eve.

Interpretations of what it means and what and who each character represent is up to either tradition or dogma, or the reader/hearer whoever that might be.

Reincarnation/rebirth into animal realms or otherwise other worldly realms and beings could explain our situation as we see it on earth thus far too.

Jesus showed how a truly good man lives and has real God desired and lead success on earth as one of its creatures. The book of Job paints God's creative force in action and just how we suffer. Look for sermons on these subjects, books with commentary, and remember, always practice honesty with yourself and question a lot.



It is interesting to juxtapose the story of the Fall of Adam and Eve, with the Upanishads - check out this excerpt from the Katha Upanishad:

Quote:
In the secret cave of the heart, two are
Seated by life’s fountain. The separate ego
Drinks of the sweet and bitter stuff,
Liking the sweet, disliking the bitter,
While the supreme Self drinks sweet and bitter
Neither liking this nor disliking that.
The ego gropes in darkness, while the Self
Lives in light. So declare the illumined sages,
And the householders who worship
The sacred fire in the name of the Lord.

May we light the fire of Nachiketa
That burns out the ego, and enables us
To pass from fearful fragmentation
To fearless fullness in the changeless Whole.


Many have said that the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge did not give Adam and Eve wisdom, it actually caused them to fragment reality into separate pieces deemed "good" or "bad", often interchangeably depending on person, perspective, culture, etc.

Are snakes evil? Are volcanoes REALLY evil?


--------------------
All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29626108 -

Is it really evil for an animal to eat another while it’s still living? Is it really evil for a human to do the same? The sage says no? Perhaps the elites are sages bc they don’t care about right and wrong they cremated that care in their ceremonies.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: blessed]
    #29628596 -

blessed said:
Before sharing Option 3 (my next post), I have a question please (it's why I've included the meanings of Evil & Wrong).

If the God of the Bible placed us directly into Hell (something he could in fact do), would he be Evil in doing so, and would it have been Wrong for him to do so?


Yes, it would. But also I could say it is evil to leave humans in the condition he does now. EG, he allows a world where kids die of diseases, which he himself has full power of. So couldn't you argue that, too, is evil?

It's one thing if a person allows us to be exposed to bad things, like a parent toughening up their kid. But imagine if you leave for college, and find out your parent has been sabotaging you the whole time: they were stealing from you, flattening your tire, they made trouble with the provost and got you kicked out of college. One would no longer think they were just toughening us up, and would see them as sinister.

I cannot find justification for the amount of bad things allowed into the world, in other words.

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Re: For the religious here, what is your answer to the problem of natural evil? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29628671 -

What's wrong with evil?  :shrug:


--------------------
Question everything, it's very responsive.
culture storage

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