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while I was out...I learned of necessary evil
    #2925579 -

for the past couple of weeks I have been going out and talking to complete strangers about anything that I can come with that is S&P related.  for the most part I still get blank looks, or even better, looks of "what the hell is this guy on?"  :blush:

I then met this person from Zaire who's name I cannot pronounce nor spell, so I will call him double O, as this is how he asked me to refer to him

I met him in the cafeteria at the UC Santa Cruz "C" side building.  I just purchased a little recording device yesterday so I can tape these conversations from now on. this way I can get an accurate discription out of what was actually said.  I did take notes though!

double O has lived in the United states for 14 years, and specifically in california for 12 years (he's 26 i think) and he has given me a new perspective shift on how the world works (yay!!!)

my original S&P question was a flat out, "what are your spiritual beliefs?"

He told me he was a rastafarian (sp?) which is kind of like christianity, but they smoke hella weed!  :grin:  kind of like, god is still in the form of a man.

we got out of that concrete building and open our eyes toward nature.  as we chiefed, we got on the subject of morality and how he was really disliking the world around him.  I then attempted to explain to him the difference between the inner and outer world (which I will be making another thread on shortly) :wink:, and while that was fine and dandy to him, he said something that I thought was very important to consider

this isn't exact, but was the jist of what was said :wink:

"you still have to deal with this world.  And sometimes you have to fight at the level life gives you" 

"what do you mean?"  I asked

"say I come at you in violence, what do you do?"

"well that's easy, fight back"

"there you go"

I was like "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I get it" :wink:

even though this is common sense, I was ignoring it somehow.  And he is right.  When something that you deem as evil is coming your way, and the reality around you is doing you physical harm, you sometimes have to bite back with equal tenacity.

this prompts me to ask

what about karma...what about compassion for others.  where do my ideals (being compassionate to everyone) go when harm is coming my way?

thank you double O


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925621 -

one thing is spirituality another thing is animal behavior.

to protect family and so on, these are instincts you have, its the monkey or the animal in you. there is no karma here.

it is not evil or bad to protect you and your family from dangers

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925642 -

acting or not-acting due to a fear of, or belief in, karma, is pretty much the same as living your life fearing hell.
it's a set of controls.
baghavad gita says it well - fight the fight, join in the fray.
act from the heart.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925773 -

aikido
for such eventualities.
i.e. you want to be prepared
but
you don't want to live in fear
nor
do you actually want to inflict damage on a misguided attacker.

so intelligence guides you to practice self defence that is healthy -
you accept the attacker's energy, while moving aside, pivot and guide his motion firmly and gently to the ground where he will be safer.
maybe pin him there, maybe repeat the proceedure. A light touch, low involvement.

defenses are reflex though so

learn aikido, that is good karma so your reflexes will do little harm,
as opposed to karate or ninja weaponry which makes bone cracking and death dealing second nature. (yearning for hormone rich battles is like bad karma)

when the stage is set, the karma is already unfolding.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2925856 -

Quote:
that is good karma so your reflexes will do little harm,
as opposed to karate or ninja weaponry which makes bone cracking and death dealing second nature. (yearning for hormone rich battles is like bad karma)




good karma?bad karma? who's to judge?
do this = go to heaven. do that = go to hell
whats the difference?
they are controls programmed into you.
go on, break free.
act from the heart, live, be.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926221 -

Quote:
"say I come at you in violence, what do you do?"

"well that's easy, fight back"



Violence begets violence. Someone once said turn the other cheek.

Having said that, let me clarify. Violence is the absolute last resort when all other means to end the conflict have been exhausted and only when you or yours have been directly attacked. And you have to make a good faith effort, not just go through the motions 'ala Bush-Iraq.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: mr crisper]
    #2926231 -

pardon me,
while waking up suddenly
you find you need to face something.
good to prepare in advance
good to prepare in a way that supports being free, & that supports acting from the heart.

this is not a matter of judging others.
karma is always just you judging you.
my suggestion here is to build in gentle and wise reflexes so that you do well in a pinch, and if you judge yourself you find a good thing happenning.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926506 -

Here's my take...

Let's say that karma, morality, and so on, are only relevant to *intent*.

Now, what is your intent when a violent individual charges you head-on? If it is to "get even" with that person, e.g., break his body for even thinking of hurting you, then that probably isn't so good...

However, if your intent is to protect yourself, then karma and morality seem to not apply. Like redgreenvines said, a discipline such as Aikido would have you protect yourself as effectively as possible, while dealing as little harm to the aggressor as possible. That seems to me to be the most moral action.

So, basically, there can be a big difference between "harming someone" and "protecting yourself."

This is, of course, a simple scenario. In other situations, the answer might not be so clear.

I hope this makes sense. I just woke up.  :yawn:

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926522 -

>> "well that's easy, fight back"

What about, run away and don't fight back because you're a peaceful person?


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926591 -

"say I come at you in violence, what do you do?"

"well that's easy, fight back"

defending yourself isn't a necessary evil. it's not evil at all.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: metamind]
    #2926714 -

I hope this makes sense. I just woke up.

*splashes hot coffee on you*

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2927068 -

this is why one should learn self defense. you can easily "win" the fight, without even hurting the people you fight. you can just evade the attacks and tire them out, block punches and kicks, grab them and push them away while telling them, No. fighting is unnecessary. You make them look so stupid trying to fight and hurt you that they just give up. it has an impact on them that you may not see at first, but it will do them more good than just fucking them up, coming down to their level.

i think the dude used a good example, but not the best at all, becuase yes, compassion is key. beating someones ass seldom does any good, it just makes them more mad.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: ]
    #2927086 -

but kotton, what if they come back with more than one?

thats on you. just remember, hurting another is hurting yourself, hurting god. i know many of your ego's would say FUCK THAT SHIT im beating the fuck out that bitch or bitches. but your still going against what matters.

i hate religion, but our brother jesus set a good example. he took the beating, even though he could have easily beat the fuck out of all them dumbasses, easy.

just keep in mind, love is the only value to us. so you decide what would be best to do. based on love.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2927117 -

When your safety is threatened compassion and good deeds go out the window...fight for your life and give no mercy.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2927480 -

Quote:
you sometimes have to bite back with equal tenacity


how can anyone bite back with equal tenacity against 'the world around us' we can bite back, but never with the same force... the downward spiral is started, and all we can do now is slow it down... and talk about it used to be, or could be..... not to sound grim, great post :thumbup: those rastas are cool!

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2927913 -

there is defending oneself and fighting back.
akido is not the only way to defend oneself without becoming as messed up as the attacker, just the only one I know of that order.

this is a funny argument which would play well in a distorted way to explain why we try to ruin to the nest of the al-kaieda guys after 9-11 instead of somehting more productive and less taxing.

good reflexes produce good results
bad reflexes produce bad results.

there is no biting back to mosquitos if you catch my drift.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: mr crisper]
    #2928185 -

Hehe, I was going to mention Aikido also. All about harmonizing incoming hostile energy (both kinetic and spritiual), and directing it (usually in a circular motion) around you to deflect incoming attack. All Aikido moves end in a hold of some sort, and the goal is to come to a peaceful resolution.

But the real topic here is how the outter reality directly affects our inner realities. There is nothing new about this.

"You may think you can fly, but you better not try."

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2928300 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
When your safety is threatened compassion and good deeds go out the window...fight for your life and give no mercy.


It may end up that way but you can try to give as much mercy as possible during the struggle as long as you dont think it seriously hampers your defending ability, and if it does, as you said fight or flight, well not exactly..

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: 69psyko69]
    #2928462 -

Quote:
All Aikido moves end in a hold of some sort, and the goal is to come to a peaceful resolution.




forcing your opponent into submission will only bring about a temporary peace. the guy will be really pissed off when u let him go.
those aikido holds can really hurt. you'd be much better off breaking something if things are getting physical.

most japanese police are trained in aikido, wonder if it gets them all zen. they're pretty mellow.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2928675 -

Agressive selfdefence (necessary evil) is only useful, if it's the last mean and if the origin agressor can learn something from it. For example, that this way doesn't lead to anything (best shown with the same counter-agression upon him, as he practices, but much more perfectionised). That's true literally and physically.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2928854 -

>> When your safety is threatened compassion and good deeds go out the window...fight for your life and give no mercy.

Why be so lazy? Surely we can put more thought into it than this.


>> what about karma...what about compassion for others. where do my ideals (being compassionate to everyone) go when harm is coming my way?

To answer this question, it might be helpful for you to examine how you prioritize yourself against the people around you. In general, do you value your own comfort or safety above that of others? Do those who might threaten your own comfort and safety devalue their own in your eyes? For example, if someone should be your attacker, how would you value their comfort and safety against that of someone who was not your attacker? If it is your instinct to see your attacker harmed before yourself, or before someone who is not your attacker, there is a lack of equanimity in your approach toward others. Without equanimity, we lack a sufficient basis for authentic universal compassion.

This does not mean to say that we should simply allow others to harm or mistreat us in the name of compassion or equanimity. However, when someone approaches us with the intent to harm us, it need not be necessary to wish them harm as well, or to view their happiness as less important than our own. Our motivation to protect ourself can be widely varied; it does not have to follow outdated self-important reasoning. In defending ourselves, we might use only the necessary force to ensure that we have the future opportunity to be of benefit to others. After all, if we are dead, we are no longer in a position to care for others. This can be just one example.

If it is our wish to lead a spiritual life, it is important to encounter threatening situations within the context of our own spiritual development, taking into consideration our present capacity for compassionate living. At present, we might not be able to productively manage a threatening situation while simultaneously maintaining a mind of compassion and equanimity. In attempting to remain compassionate, we might place ourselves in undue jeopardy, causing a premature end to our spiritual life.

Compassion is a skill to be cultivated. It is not simply a decision made: "I will be compassionate toward everybody all of the time." It is an entire perspective on people and things that takes much time to make akin to our first nature. If we have decided to develop a compassionate attitude toward others, we must be patient and accepting of our present abilities. A monk I once knew was fond of the saying "the best way to get where you're going is to start where you are."

In encountering threating situations, it is not necessarily a shortcoming on our part if our practice of compassion is not yet adequate to impact our actions. For example, at our present level of spiritual development we might be able to maintain a balanced mind of equanimity when somebody mistreats us in a minor fashion, such as cutting ahead of us in line, or treating us with impatience. If another person should come after us with a knife, however, it is not necessarily a failing in us if we become angry, or oppose them violently. That is instinct. Even though it might be our wish never to become angry, if our spiritual development is not yet sufficient to oppose our anger and violence in some situations there is no reason feel guilty or hypocritcal. We should abandon these feelings, as they function only to entrench us in negativity. We should accept the situation, learn what we can, and always be patient with ourselves. In patience there is tremendous freedom.

When it comes to karma, our intentions far outweigh our actions. It is the intention which creates the karmic impression on our mind; the witnessing of our own action is just another facet of our experience. While the action does contribute to our karma, much more so does the intent behind the action. If in defending ourselves against an attacker with violence we succumb to the wish to see them harmed, we accumulate much more negative karma than we would if we opposed them with a pure heart wishing for an alternative to violence. We need not be slave to feelings of vengence or anger in defending ourselves. It is when these feelings control our behaviour that we accumulate vast amounts of negative karma, and create vast potential for our own future suffering.

At present, our self-cherising causes us to become angry and impatient at even the slightest experience of suffering, while at the same time we are relatively undisturbed when others are killed. For example, we might become frustrated and unhappy when we stub our toe on the table, but when we see a news report informing us of a murder we are relatively unaffected. A bodhisattva, on the other hand, has spent his or her life reversing this attitude. A high bodhisattva would happily give his life if it meant the relief of another's suffering. This is because they have achieved through training a total reversal of their self-cherising attitude. In doing so, they have made each thought, each action, every element of their being into a fountain of positive karma, creating in their mind the immeasurable potential for the supreme bliss of full enlightenment.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: ]
    #2929271 -

Kottonmouth said:
this is why one should learn self defense. you can easily "win" the fight, without even hurting the people you fight. you can just evade the attacks and tire them out, block punches and kicks, grab them and push them away while telling them, No. fighting is unnecessary. You make them look so stupid trying to fight and hurt you that they just give up. it has an impact on them that you may not see at first, but it will do them more good than just fucking them up, coming down to their level.

i think the dude used a good example, but not the best at all, becuase yes, compassion is key. beating someones ass seldom does any good, it just makes them more mad.


I always thought it was pretty cool to wipe away somes attacks without hurting them, make them look a fool. But realy this is just attacking their ego instead. And that can be much more hurtful and lasting than any physical harm. Really you have just substituted one harm for another. I would rather suffer physical pain myself than mental pain or harm to ego/ self image. This is half the motivation for tattoos peircing, branding, hanging, and cutting to mention a few. Why do so many people feel that physical harm is the worst you can do to someone? An instigator is often already in mental pain and realy just wants to get their ass kicked so as to replace their mental pain with physical pain.

If you were concerned about your karma then I would say that the only acceptable course is to turn the cheek and talk to them. The highest for of compassion would be the walk the way of Jesus "the man from mars" (Stanger in a Strange Land referance(read it!!)), take their pain into your own body and return with love.

There has only been one time that I literally turned the other cheek. It was within hours that he came back to me with an apology and now 16 years later we are still best friends.

Just to be clear I am generally not a 'turn the other cheek' kind of guy. Often I think that a person who is acting out physically is in mental pain and actually wants to get their ass kicked. To beat their mental state down further is really the worst thing you can do. One step better is to give them what they are asking for and I suppose the 'Dove' would do one better by turning the cheek and offering counsel.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2929360 -

:smile: I once stood between our university student party and an incoming rumbling heavy drunken 'native' biiiig cupboard. A friend of mine was skilled in some martial arts and posed up like Kwai Chang Kain to defend us, while on the road of the drunk the bodies flew to the left and right. I pushed my friend aside and posed up before the drunk cupboard intensly saying 'hey, peace, peace..."

I ended flying over some tables :grin:

But perhaps it helped, because the 'wall' calmed down relatve quick after that. And spoke to some students quite peaceful. Hell I got out of his sight quick :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2931831 -

i have to say that I have really enjoyed all the responses I have gotten on this thread. most of it was as I expected, especially the fight back part. it warms my heart to know that many of you picked that out as the idea to disagree with.

Over time with the beatings I have recieved as a child i learned a lot about violence. I have also learned about how to react to violence, especially when it is someone you love is the one dishing it out. i don't know if any of you have encountered a situation where you feel completely helpless? where you can't fight back? where all you can do is just stand, sit, or lay there and just hope for it to be over?

what if the intent of fighting back was jsut so that the violence would stop? sure you might be hurting "yourself" but it's also "yourself" hurting you, in ways that just aren't right.

I did ask about karma and compassion because I wanted to see the many different definitions and the correlation between them.

sitting back on a computer and saying this and that is one thing, but when the situation really comes up in front of you, do you think you'll be thinking about compassion, or will you just react?

personally, I don't think it's jsut a quick reaction. I think in your mind you will think about it. That is where the intent will be established, and that's where the karma will be set.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2933471 -

I hope you have been able to forgive the person(s) who did this to you, but it would be understandable if you haven't.

Maybe this thread is a way of sorting things out in your mind?

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: zorbman]
    #2934820 -

Or maybe not.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: zorbman]
    #2934847 -

oh yeah, I've forgiven, as she was really psyucho and most of the time didn't really know what she was doing in the first place. 

making peace with her was one of the hardest things to do, but after it was done, I felt at peace, and for the most part have been feeling htis way for quite sometime.  :heart:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2934863 -

That is very admirable- I've never run into that situation before.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2934905 -

Meh. No-brainer. The Rasta dude was right.

It's really easy to over-analyze things like this, but his simple question and your honest reply cut through all the crap. The fact of the matter is that some people's preferred method of interaction with other people is violence. So be it. They chose their path.

If you want to beat yourself up about it afterwards, that is of course your right. But it's a lot better to metaphorically beat yourself up about it at your own leisure (or not) after the fact than to be literally beaten up in real time.

It's a "best of both worlds" scenario.

pinky


--------------------

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: zorbman]
    #2934908 -

well it's like, most of the annoyances in life are just petty and pale in comparison.  So honestly, I am extremely happy and grateful for my experience  :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2934958 -

I would consider that matching up vibrations to expand instead of contract. Though i suppose you wouldnt necessarily be expanding in every case.

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