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Invisiblekaiowas
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Registered: 07/14/03
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while I was out...I learned of necessary evil
    #2925579 - 07/25/04 11:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

for the past couple of weeks I have been going out and talking to complete strangers about anything that I can come with that is S&P related.  for the most part I still get blank looks, or even better, looks of "what the hell is this guy on?"  :blush:

I then met this person from Zaire who's name I cannot pronounce nor spell, so I will call him double O, as this is how he asked me to refer to him

I met him in the cafeteria at the UC Santa Cruz "C" side building.  I just purchased a little recording device yesterday so I can tape these conversations from now on. this way I can get an accurate discription out of what was actually said.  I did take notes though!

double O has lived in the United states for 14 years, and specifically in california for 12 years (he's 26 i think) and he has given me a new perspective shift on how the world works (yay!!!)

my original S&P question was a flat out, "what are your spiritual beliefs?"

He told me he was a rastafarian (sp?) which is kind of like christianity, but they smoke hella weed!  :grin:  kind of like, god is still in the form of a man.

we got out of that concrete building and open our eyes toward nature.  as we chiefed, we got on the subject of morality and how he was really disliking the world around him.  I then attempted to explain to him the difference between the inner and outer world (which I will be making another thread on shortly) :wink:, and while that was fine and dandy to him, he said something that I thought was very important to consider

this isn't exact, but was the jist of what was said :wink:

"you still have to deal with this world.  And sometimes you have to fight at the level life gives you" 

"what do you mean?"  I asked

"say I come at you in violence, what do you do?"

"well that's easy, fight back"

"there you go"

I was like "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I get it" :wink:

even though this is common sense, I was ignoring it somehow.  And he is right.  When something that you deem as evil is coming your way, and the reality around you is doing you physical harm, you sometimes have to bite back with equal tenacity.

this prompts me to ask

what about karma...what about compassion for others.  where do my ideals (being compassionate to everyone) go when harm is coming my way?

thank you double O


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineMystiq_Shaman
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Registered: 07/10/04
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925621 - 07/25/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

one thing is spirituality another thing is animal behavior.

to protect family and so on, these are instincts you have, its the monkey or the animal in you. there is no karma here.

it is not evil or bad to protect you and your family from dangers


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925642 - 07/25/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

acting or not-acting due to a fear of, or belief in, karma, is pretty much the same as living your life fearing hell.
it's a set of controls.
baghavad gita says it well - fight the fight, join in the fray.
act from the heart.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925773 - 07/25/04 01:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

aikido
for such eventualities.
i.e. you want to be prepared
but
you don't want to live in fear
nor
do you actually want to inflict damage on a misguided attacker.

so intelligence guides you to practice self defence that is healthy -
you accept the attacker's energy, while moving aside, pivot and guide his motion firmly and gently to the ground where he will be safer.
maybe pin him there, maybe repeat the proceedure. A light touch, low involvement.

defenses are reflex though so

learn aikido, that is good karma so your reflexes will do little harm,
as opposed to karate or ninja weaponry which makes bone cracking and death dealing second nature. (yearning for hormone rich battles is like bad karma)

when the stage is set, the karma is already unfolding.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2925856 - 07/25/04 02:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

that is good karma so your reflexes will do little harm,
as opposed to karate or ninja weaponry which makes bone cracking and death dealing second nature. (yearning for hormone rich battles is like bad karma)





good karma?bad karma? who's to judge?
do this = go to heaven. do that = go to hell
whats the difference?
they are controls programmed into you.
go on, break free.
act from the heart, live, be.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926221 - 07/25/04 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"say I come at you in violence, what do you do?"

"well that's easy, fight back"




Violence begets violence. Someone once said turn the other cheek.

Having said that, let me clarify. Violence is the absolute last resort when all other means to end the conflict have been exhausted and only when you or yours have been directly attacked. And you have to make a good faith effort, not just go through the motions 'ala Bush-Iraq.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: mr crisper]
    #2926231 - 07/25/04 04:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

pardon me,
while waking up suddenly
you find you need to face something.
good to prepare in advance
good to prepare in a way that supports being free, & that supports acting from the heart.

this is not a matter of judging others.
karma is always just you judging you.
my suggestion here is to build in gentle and wise reflexes so that you do well in a pinch, and if you judge yourself you find a good thing happenning.


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Offlinemetamind
(FormerlyEnlightened)

Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926506 - 07/25/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Here's my take...

Let's say that karma, morality, and so on, are only relevant to *intent*.

Now, what is your intent when a violent individual charges you head-on? If it is to "get even" with that person, e.g., break his body for even thinking of hurting you, then that probably isn't so good...

However, if your intent is to protect yourself, then karma and morality seem to not apply. Like redgreenvines said, a discipline such as Aikido would have you protect yourself as effectively as possible, while dealing as little harm to the aggressor as possible. That seems to me to be the most moral action.

So, basically, there can be a big difference between "harming someone" and "protecting yourself."

This is, of course, a simple scenario. In other situations, the answer might not be so clear.

I hope this makes sense. I just woke up.  :yawn:


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Offlinedaba
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926522 - 07/25/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>> "well that's easy, fight back"

What about, run away and don't fight back because you're a peaceful person?


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!


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Anonymous

Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2926591 - 07/25/04 06:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"say I come at you in violence, what do you do?"

"well that's easy, fight back"


defending yourself isn't a necessary evil. it's not evil at all.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: metamind]
    #2926714 - 07/25/04 07:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I hope this makes sense. I just woke up.

*splashes hot coffee on you*


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Anonymous

Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2927068 - 07/25/04 10:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

this is why one should learn self defense. you can easily "win" the fight, without even hurting the people you fight. you can just evade the attacks and tire them out, block punches and kicks, grab them and push them away while telling them, No. fighting is unnecessary. You make them look so stupid trying to fight and hurt you that they just give up. it has an impact on them that you may not see at first, but it will do them more good than just fucking them up, coming down to their level.

i think the dude used a good example, but not the best at all, becuase yes, compassion is key. beating someones ass seldom does any good, it just makes them more mad.


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Anonymous

Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: ]
    #2927086 - 07/25/04 10:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

but kotton, what if they come back with more than one?

thats on you. just remember, hurting another is hurting yourself, hurting god. i know many of your ego's would say FUCK THAT SHIT im beating the fuck out that bitch or bitches. but your still going against what matters.

i hate religion, but our brother jesus set a good example. he took the beating, even though he could have easily beat the fuck out of all them dumbasses, easy.

just keep in mind, love is the only value to us. so you decide what would be best to do. based on love.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2927117 - 07/25/04 10:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

When your safety is threatened compassion and good deeds go out the window...fight for your life and give no mercy.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2927480 - 07/26/04 01:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you sometimes have to bite back with equal tenacity




how can anyone bite back with equal tenacity against 'the world around us' we can bite back, but never with the same force... the downward spiral is started, and all we can do now is slow it down... and talk about it used to be, or could be..... not to sound grim, great post :thumbup: those rastas are cool!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2927913 - 07/26/04 06:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there is defending oneself and fighting back.
akido is not the only way to defend oneself without becoming as messed up as the attacker, just the only one I know of that order.

this is a funny argument which would play well in a distorted way to explain why we try to ruin to the nest of the al-kaieda guys after 9-11 instead of somehting more productive and less taxing.

good reflexes produce good results
bad reflexes produce bad results.

there is no biting back to mosquitos if you catch my drift.


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Offline69psyko69
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: mr crisper]
    #2928185 - 07/26/04 11:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hehe, I was going to mention Aikido also. All about harmonizing incoming hostile energy (both kinetic and spritiual), and directing it (usually in a circular motion) around you to deflect incoming attack. All Aikido moves end in a hold of some sort, and the goal is to come to a peaceful resolution.

But the real topic here is how the outter reality directly affects our inner realities. There is nothing new about this.

"You may think you can fly, but you better not try."


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Invisiblebandaid
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Registered: 05/14/03
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2928300 - 07/26/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
When your safety is threatened compassion and good deeds go out the window...fight for your life and give no mercy.



It may end up that way but you can try to give as much mercy as possible during the struggle as long as you dont think it seriously hampers your defending ability, and if it does, as you said fight or flight, well not exactly..


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: 69psyko69]
    #2928462 - 07/26/04 01:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

All Aikido moves end in a hold of some sort, and the goal is to come to a peaceful resolution.





forcing your opponent into submission will only bring about a temporary peace. the guy will be really pissed off when u let him go.
those aikido holds can really hurt. you'd be much better off breaking something if things are getting physical.

most japanese police are trained in aikido, wonder if it gets them all zen. they're pretty mellow.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: while I was out...I learned of necessary evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2928675 - 07/26/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Agressive selfdefence (necessary evil) is only useful, if it's the last mean and if the origin agressor can learn something from it. For example, that this way doesn't lead to anything (best shown with the same counter-agression upon him, as he practices, but much more perfectionised). That's true literally and physically.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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