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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27744296 -

ballsalsa said:
Because votes held under foreign military occupation are absolutely not legit.


Russia was already in Crimea because of their military base, and no one there saw Russian troops at the polling stations.

Again, if you have any evidence people were being forced to vote against their will, please share it.  That's simply not the case.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: unam sanctum]
    #27744303 -

unam sanctum said:
The government he upholds as a moral standard bearer would imprison him and sentence to hard labor, maybe even poison his underwear for saying the same things about them if he was a citizen there.


That might(?) have been true back in Stalin's times, but it is certainly no longer true today.  When I visited Russia about 5 years ago, I witnessed an anti-Putin protest, and saw CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and other American channels criticize him all the time.  It's allowed.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: chopstick]
    #27744305 -

chopstick said:
ballsalsa said:
chopstick said:
Why is it completely impossible for you to simply accept that the Crimean referendum might have been legit?



Because votes held under foreign military occupation are absolutely not legit.


Right, I forgot votes only count when it is convenient for US foreign policy interests for them to count.

In all other cases, nobody is allowed to determine their own fate without the United States giving them permission.


Is english not your first language?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744311 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
ballsalsa said:
Because votes held under foreign military occupation are absolutely not legit.


Russia was already in Crimea because of their military base, and no one there saw Russian troops at the polling stations.

Again, if you have any evidence people were being forced to vote against their will, please share it.  That's simply not the case.


I didn't say anything about polling stations

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods]
    #27744312 -

koods said:
No. That’s a rumor mill and you know it. In the other thread you said he’s been missing for a a few days and “presumed dead.”


We've seen evidence of Nazis killing people for far less than speaking up against Ukraine.

He's been missing for almost a week now, and while I agree his death hasn't been confirmed yet, I'd bet you money if he is ever found, there will be evidence of his murder.

You see, we can't have people inside Ukraine telling us what's happening there, we must have CIA talking points telling us that.  Amirite?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744316 -

Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
unam sanctum said:
The government he upholds as a moral standard bearer would imprison him and sentence to hard labor, maybe even poison his underwear for saying the same things about them if he was a citizen there.


That might(?) have been true back in Stalin's times, but it is certainly no longer true today.  When I visited Russia about 5 years ago, I witnessed an anti-Putin protest, and saw CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and other American channels criticize him all the time.  It's allowed.


That's why Russian's aren't allowed to call the Ukrainian invasion a war, right?  The recent crackdown on Russki independent media? Navalny? Why have I witnessed numerous anti-war protesters there arrested over the last couple of months?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27744319 -

ballsalsa said:
Again, if you have any evidence people were being forced to vote against their will, please share it.  That's simply not the case.


I didn't say anything about polling stations


Then please explain why you said "votes held under foreign military occupation are absolutely not legit".

Russia was in Crimea by treaty (see Kharkiv Pact)


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744326 -

You keep skirting the question.
What is selection bias?
Could a referendum under occupation and subsequent polling be subject to it? How about a nosy foreigner? How does voluntary self-selection play into selection bias?

I know you know and I know why you don't want to answer.

I also know that by your own estimation we can have 95% confidence that as many as 18% of post occupation Crimeans may not believe the results of the referendum to be legitimate.

We really have no way to know how such a vote would have played out pre-invasion but it seems safe to conjecture that an invasion and occupation by the nation they were voting to join had some cooling effect on opposition voters.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744330 -

You already posted video of Putin admitting that his very polite, little green men were off thier bases and occupying territory outside the scope of the treaty. You had a long discussion about it with shivas.wisdom. Putin said he had to invade to protect the integrity of the referendum.
:loldongs:
Who should I believe, him or you?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: unam sanctum]
    #27744335 -

unam sanctum said:
That's why people aren't allowed to call the Ukrainian invasion a war, right?


That rule was passed before the war actually started, and when Russia thought Ukraine wasn't going to fight back.  Even RT.com is calling it an invasion now.

unam sanctum said:
The recent crackdown on independent media?


The only 'crackdown' is that independent media are no longer allowed to spread intentionally fake news, and after this law passed, Western media voluntarily left.

unam sanctum said:
Why have I witnessed numerous anti-war protesters arrested over the last couple of months?


Because you need a permit to hold a rally in most parts of Russia.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27744339 -

The Ecstatic said:
The US being hypocrites doesn’t make other countries good by default.


No, almost every country is flawed. But that doesn't mean Russia isn't way fucking higher on the scale of morality than the US, even if it is only because they don't support terrorists and Neo-Nazi's and foment dozens of regime change operations every year that almost always get tons of people killed while strangling millions of more people with brutal economic sanctions, only adding even more salt into the wound in places like Syria, all while blasting our domestic population with a level of propaganda to justify all this that would make Goebbels blush.

At any rate, the people voted 20 to fucking 1 in Crimea to join Russia. To call it a landslide is an understatement. There is nobody that can seriously say, well, it magically doesn't count because it would go against my preferred narrative and/or personal interests if it counted.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27744341 -

ballsalsa said:
You keep skirting the question.
What is selection bias?
Could a referendum under occupation and subsequent polling be subject to it? How about a nosy foreigner? How does voluntary self-selection play into selection bias?

I know you know and I know why you don't want to answer.

I also know that by your own estimation we can have 95% confidence that as many as 18% of post occupation Crimeans may not believe the results of the referendum to be legitimate.

We really have no way to know how such a vote would have played out pre-invasion but it seems safe to conjecture that an invasion and occupation by the nation they were voting to join had some cooling effect on opposition voters.


I don't think it could have truly been a 97% approval with an 83% turnout, but it's not a stretch to say that at least a slight majority of Crimean's did approve of the annexation.  Whether it was their own belief, Russian propaganda or fear of retaliation- impossible to accurately determine. I'm speaking on 2014 numbers.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744344 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The only 'crackdown' is that independent media are no longer allowed to spread intentionally fake news, and after this law passed, Western media voluntarily left.




"We can't lie anymore, time to get the fuck out of the country! Damn you Putin!"

-The Western Media

Honestly, the fact that Russia even tolerated the presence of these scum in the first place is pretty mind blowing.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744348 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
unam sanctum said:
That's why people aren't allowed to call the Ukrainian invasion a war, right?


That rule was passed before the war actually started, and when Russia thought Ukraine wasn't going to fight back.  Even RT.com is calling it an invasion now.

unam sanctum said:
The recent crackdown on independent media?


The only 'crackdown' is that independent media are no longer allowed to spread intentionally fake news, and after this law passed, Western media voluntarily left.

unam sanctum said:
Why have I witnessed numerous anti-war protesters arrested over the last couple of months?


Because you need a permit to hold a rally in most parts of Russia.


1.  march 4th

2. not fake news, foreign news.  I guess every news not Russian is fake by your standards.

3. yes, I'm sure that's why.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: chopstick]
    #27744349 -

Did somebody say that?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744351 -

also you conveniently skipped Navalny.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: chopstick]
    #27744358 -

chopstick said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The only 'crackdown' is that independent media are no longer allowed to spread intentionally fake news, and after this law passed, Western media voluntarily left.




"We can't lie anymore, time to get the fuck out of the country! Damn you Putin!"

-The Western Media

Honestly, the fact that Russia even tolerated the presence of these scum in the first place is pretty mind blowing.


Are you able to give me a direct answer to this question?

If you really feel the way you describe, then why not just move to Russia? 

I'm sure they would love to have you.  I WILL pay for a one way ticket for you. 

Why stay somewhere you seem to despise so deeply?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27744366 -

ballsalsa said:
You keep skirting the question.
What is selection bias?
Could a referendum under occupation and subsequent polling be subject to it? How about a nosy foreigner? How does voluntary self-selection play into selection bias?


Why do you have this strange fantasy that people in Crimea are afraid to talk to foreigners?

Why do you have this strange fantasy that anyone in Crimea felt "occupied" when Russians had always been in their territory?

ballsalsa said:
I also know that by your own estimation we can have 95% confidence that as many as 18% of post occupation Crimeans may not believe the results of the referendum to be legitimate.


Correct, meaning at least 82% of the people there felt the referendum results were legitimate, but likely much more.

ballsalsa said:
We really have no way to know how such a vote would have played out pre-invasion but it seems safe to conjecture that an invasion and occupation by the nation they were voting to join had some cooling effect on opposition voters.


If you watched the video I posted earlier, you'd see it was just the opposite; because of Maidan, Crimea chose to separate, and it also made it far more likely the people there voted that way.  And because Crimea separated, other Eastern Ukrainian regions wanted to separate as well.  But unfortunately, none joined Russia, so they got their asses kicked.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27744370 -

ballsalsa said:
You already posted video of Putin admitting that his very polite, little green men were off thier bases and occupying territory outside the scope of the treaty. You had a long discussion about it with shivas.wisdom. Putin said he had to invade to protect the integrity of the referendum.
:loldongs:
Who should I believe, him or you?


I didn't argue with him. I told him I knew about that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/21/22 12:05 AM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27744375 -

What do people make of this whole DeSantis Disney feud? Is Disney trying to make your kids gay trannys or what?

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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