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Offlineekomstop
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Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History
    #3299496 - 10/30/04 11:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/oct2004/hall-o30.shtml
Expanding Halliburton probe confirms Bush administration is most corrupt in US history
By Patrick Martin
30 October 2004

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On the eve of the 2004 presidential election, allegations about the corrupt relationship between the Bush administration and Halliburton Corp., the company formerly run by Vice President Richard Cheney, have taken center stage once again. Press reports Friday said that the FBI has expanded an ongoing investigation into contracts obtained by Halliburton?s subsidiary, Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR), in Iraq and Kuwait.

The FBI sought an interview with Bunnatine H. Greenhouse, a senior Army civil servant who objected to the KBR no-bid contract and complained that it represented preferential treatment. The Army gave KBR a secret $7 billion contract to restore Iraq?s oil fields just before Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

Greenhouse is the chief contracting officer for the Army Corps of Engineers. In a letter to acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee on October 21, she said that Army officials had not justified the no-bid award by satisfying procedural requirements such as showing that KBR had ?unique attributes? that no other contractor could match. She also charged that her repeated complaints were ignored, and that the Army allowed KBR officials to sit in on Pentagon meetings at which the awarding of contracts was discussed.

The letter charges that ?employees of the U.S. government have taken improper action that favored KBR?s interests,? according to citations published in the press. Greenhouse said she ?experienced repeated interference with her role? as chief monitor of Corps of Engineers contracts.

Greenhouse?s lawyer said that his client, who still works at the Pentagon, was seeking the protection of whistleblower provisions to block retaliatory actions such as demotion or firing. Greenhouse was threatened with demotion earlier this month.

Tensions within the Army Corps of Engineers apparently reached the breaking point on October 8, when the Corps gave Halliburton a one-year $165 million extension on a contract to provide food, fuel and other supplies for US forces stationed in the Balkans. According to an account in the Los Angeles Times, which obtained a copy of the contract document, Greenhouse wrote on the proposal, ?I cannot approve this,? and made other written comments protesting the award. Greenhouse did not sign the final approval of the extension, as required. Instead, her assistant, Lt. Col. Norbert Doyle, signed it.

Greenhouse apparently felt that with so many investigations underway into KBR overcharging the US military or engaging in bribery and other corrupt practices, the Corps should not simply rubber-stamp an extension of the KBR contract in the Balkans, first awarded during the 1999 US assault on Serbia. The contract is being expanded to cover the entire continent of Europe, including newly established US bases in Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary.

The Halliburton subsidiary has been hit with a series of complaints of overcharging and otherwise mishandling its contracts as the principal supplier of food, fuel and other materiel to the US invasion and occupation force in Iraq. It also faces investigations by the Justice Department and the Securities and Exchange Commission over potentially illegal and corrupt dealings in Nigeria and Iran.

This is not the first time that top Pentagon officials appointed by George W. Bush have overruled career civil service professionals to award contracts to Vice President Cheney?s old firm. In the fall of 2002, an Army lawyer objected to the initial Iraq-related contract for KBR, $1.9 million to draw up a plan for operating the country?s oil infrastructure after a war. While tiny in relation to the huge oil field recovery and military supply contracts doled out later, this award was critical because it gave KBR an edge over any potential competitor. The Government Accountability Office later determined that the Army lawyer had been right.

Greenhouse herself objected at several points in the subsequent contracting process: when KBR placed a bid for the oil-field recovery contract whose specifications it had drawn up in the pre-war planning process; when the Army Corps of Engineers invited KBR officials to meetings where they were discussing the contract awards; and when the Pentagon proposed to make the ?sole-source? no-bid contract for five years, longer than she believed necessary. Each time she was overruled.

Last December, after the first press reports about overcharging on KBR contracts to supply fuel to the military in Iraq, Army Corps contracting officer Mary Robertson found two alternative fuel suppliers who would offer a better price, but Halliburton refused to buy from them, insisting on continuing its exclusive relationship with the Kuwaiti-owned Altanmia. In a letter to KBR, Robertson protested, ?Since the U.S. government is paying for these services, I will not succumb to the political pressure from the [Kuwaiti government] or the U.S. Embassy to go against my integrity and pay a higher price for fuel than necessary.?

A pattern of corruption and cover-up

Over the past year, one revelation after another has ensued, demonstrating not only that Halliburton/KBR has enjoyed privileged access to Pentagon contracts, but that the Bush administration has done everything in its power to block any review of this corrupt relationship with Cheney?s former company.

* In December 2003, Pentagon auditors uncovered a overcharge of $61 million by KBR on a contract to supply fuel for the military in Iraq. Halliburton was also suspected of overcharging by $67 million on food for military mess halls in Kuwait and Iraq.

* In January 2004, Halliburton repaid $6.3 million in overcharges and kickbacks for fuel contracts in Kuwait.

* In February 2004, the Pentagon announced that Halliburton would repay it for $27 million in KBR overbilling for meals served to troops at five military bases in Kuwait and Iraq. The meals were never delivered.

* In March 2004, the Pentagon requested the Justice Department join the probe of overbilling, a strong indication that potential criminal fraud charges were at issue.

* In June 2004, Time magazine obtained and made public an internal Army Corps of Engineers e-mail from March 2003, reporting that the initial contract award to Halliburton had been ?coordinated? with the office of Vice President Cheney.

* Later in June, press reports confirmed that a Bush political appointee, Michael Mobbs, was the Pentagon official who decided to award the initial planning job to KBR which facilitated its selection for the subsequent $7 billion implementation contract.

* In July 2004, a federal grand jury subpoenaed records of Halliburton?s subsidiary in the Cayman Islands, as part of an investigation into illicit dealings with Iran.

* In August 2004, a Pentagon audit found that $1.8 billion in billion by KBR for work in Iraq was inadequately documented and potentially unjustified. The Pentagon initially said it would withhold 15 percent of scheduled payments to KBR pending the result of an investigation?the usual procedure in such cases?but reversed the decision two days later.

* In September 2004, a federal judge in Dallas rejected a proposed $6 million settlement of a lawsuit by Halliburton stockholders charging the company with accounting fraud, suggesting that the penalty was far too small.

The month of October has seen one report after another about dubious or plainly corrupt ties between Halliburton and various federal agencies, some of them directly mediated by Vice President Cheney?s staff. These revelations underscore one reason for the ferocity of the Bush campaign in the November 2 election. Should Bush and Cheney fail to retain the White House?and thus lose the power to block and suppress the myriad investigations into corrupt contracting?dozens of individuals, right up to the topmost levels of the administration, will face trial, conviction and imprisonment.

On October 13, the Los Angeles Times ran a detailed analysis of the Nigeria bribery scandal, which could lead to criminal charges against Cheney from his tenure as Halliburton CEO from 1995 to 2000. Halliburton became part of the four-company consortium building a huge natural gas complex in Nigeria when it acquired Dresser Corp. in 1998, merging Dresser?s construction subsidiary M.W. Kellogg with its own construction arm Brown & Root, to form Kellogg Brown & Root.

Kellogg?s boss, Jack Stanley, was a key figure in the alleged scheme to funnel $180 million in bribes to Nigerian military ruler Sani Abacha, routed through a complex series of shell corporations in Gibraltar and Switzerland, to gain the lucrative contract, ultimately worth more than $5.2 billion. Cheney installed Stanley as the head of the merged KBR. US authorities are now investigating whether Halliburton violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Cheney would be legally liable if he knew that illegal payments were being made in 1998 and 1999, while he was CEO.

On October 14, the Times followed up with a report on apparent Bush administration favoritism towards Halliburton in the regulatory field, through a series of actions that boosted a drilling technique known as hydraulic fracturing, devised by Halliburton, despite environmental concerns. The technique involves the injection of liquid chemicals, including gasoline, napalm, crude oil and other toxic substances, into oil wells, to force out greater quantities of petroleum than can be recovered by ordinary drilling.

The Bush administration has intervened to oppose efforts to regulate hydraulic fracturing under the Safe Drinking Water Act, authorizing an EPA study declaring that the technique poses no threat to drinking water. At least one EPA career civil servant has sought whistleblower protection and filed a complaint with the agency?s inspector general and Congress over that decision. Weston Wilson, an environmental engineer with 30 years experience, charged that the finding was not supported by science and that a current Halliburton employee sat in on the review panel that approved it.

A lawsuit brought by a group of Alabama residents living near a Halliburton well challenged hydraulic fracturing and won a 1997 Appeals Court decision ordering the EPA to regulate the practice under the drinking water law. Action on this decision has been repeatedly stalled, and the issue was ultimately referred to the Bush administration?s energy task force?headed by former Halliburton CEO Cheney. Not surprisingly, the panel sided with the energy industry and overruled the EPA. The US Department of Energy issued a statement declaring hydraulic fracturing vital to the US economy and proposing its exemption from regulation. Language to that effect was inserted in the Bush administration?s energy legislation, which failed to pass Congress last year.

Halliburton and Whitewater

The decision of a high-ranking civil servant to publicly challenge the Halliburton-Cheney connection demonstrates the shattering impact of the crisis in the US occupation of Iraq on the entire Pentagon apparatus. Questions have been raised about Halliburton?s sweetheart deals in Iraq for nearly two years, both by the media and by congressional Democrats, but only sporadically and ineffectively. The investigation has remained bottled up in the Pentagon inspector general?s office. Greenhouse?s October 21 letter has likewise been referred to this office, headed by Republican lawyer Joseph Schmitz.

The chief of staff in Schmitz?s office is L. Jean Lewis, a right-wing Republican Party loyalist who first came to public notice?and notoriety?as an anti-Clinton activist in the Whitewater investigation more than a decade ago. Lewis was named to the $118,000-a-year job in 2002, as a reward for her role in instigating the charges linking Bill and Hillary Clinton to the failed Madison Guaranty, an Arkansas S&L she was responsible for investigating as an employee of the Resolution Trust Corporation.

Lewis filed a criminal referral in September 1992, trying unsuccessfully to provoke an RTC and FBI investigation of the Clintons on the eve of the 1992 presidential election. The Little Rock FBI office concluded there was no evidence of criminal wrongdoing and said that Lewis?s efforts to initiate such a probe were a blatant effort to influence the outcome of the vote. More than a year later, Lewis?s charges were taken up again by congressional Republicans and became the initial pretext for the series of investigations that led to Clinton?s impeachment.

There is a clear and obvious difference in the way that the American political establishment has handled the Halliburton and Whitewater affairs. In the first instance, the Clintons? loss of money on a small, failed real estate venture more than a decade old was leveraged into a massive scandal warranting a probe costing $50 million, culminating in impeachment. In the second case, a real, ongoing corrupt relationship, involving influence peddling worth billions of dollars?perhaps the most blatant corruption in the long history of political corruption in the United States?has been largely downplayed. Certainly, there have been no suggestions that Cheney warrants impeachment, or that his long-running effort to block disclosure of the proceedings of his energy task force constitutes a cover-up.

See Also:
Bid-rigging scandal envelops top insurance broker in US
[29 October 2004]
Bank with close ties to Bush administration engulfed in scandal
[24 August 2004]
US Supreme Court declines to order release of Cheney energy taskforce papers
[29 June 2004]
Former Enron CEO Jeffrey Skilling indicted
[24 February 2004]


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Offlinemichotim002
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: ekomstop]
    #3299509 - 10/30/04 11:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, Bush is a good president


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: michotim002]
    #3299511 - 10/30/04 11:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nope, you're both wrong. Bush is a statist asshole just like the others.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: silversoul7]
    #3299539 - 10/30/04 11:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Bush is alot worse than Clinton, Reagan, Carter - heck, even his daddy; in terms of how Presidents related to the Muslim world. Domestically, that's your call ss7 - but in terms of foreign policy, Bush IS one of the most evil Presidents in US history.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3299836 - 10/31/04 01:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Personally I think Clinton was far more corrupt than Bush, but it all depends on who you believe.

It is stupid whenever people say the Bush Administration is the worst or most corrupt presidency in history. Even if they were that bad, they still have nothing on Andrew Jackson and Ulysses S. Grant.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3299932 - 10/31/04 01:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
It is stupid whenever people say the Bush Administration is the worst or most corrupt presidency in history. Even if they were that bad, they still have nothing on Andrew Jackson and Ulysses S. Grant.




There, you just named two guys, comprtable to Bush... when it comes to presidential ability.

He's among the worst.

Did Jackson or Gant go to war with the WRONG country?


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Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3300035 - 10/31/04 02:10 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Frankly, Clinton didn't bluntly bomb two Muslim nations into the stone age; he didn't contribute to the clash of cultures the way Bush has. Instead, Clinton came to the aid of Muslims in Bosnia. What your Presidents do domestically is not my concern. What they do abroad is though, and in a foreign respect Bush is far worse than Clinton ever was.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3300085 - 10/31/04 02:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Afghanistan was, is and will continue to be... in the stone age. War had nothing to do with that.

Iraq on the other hand...


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Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3300091 - 10/31/04 02:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

True - I should of worded it differently: Stone age afghanistan was bombed into something prior to that.  :wink:


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OfflineLuciferSam2
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3300107 - 10/31/04 03:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Bush IS Satan.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: LuciferSam2]
    #3300131 - 10/31/04 03:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Not quite. He is misguided, like all nation builders. Like Napolean, and others, nation builders, colonizers, and occupiers are always proven wrong with history.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: LuciferSam2]
    #3300224 - 10/31/04 04:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LuciferSam2 said:
Bush IS Satan.



So numerous Death Metal bands are actually worshipping Bush??? :confused:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: silversoul7]
    #3300876 - 10/31/04 12:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Death Metal is soooo 20th Century...


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3300891 - 10/31/04 12:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Bush made the right decision to go into Iraq. From everything we knew at the time it was posed to become an oil funded North Korea with contacts with terrorist groups. Not only that but Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator and toppling him on humanitarian grounds should have been enough.

Bill Clinton had several chances to do this without an all out war but each time he chickened out because he didn't want to look unilateral. Same with the Taliban and Al Qaeda, he could have blown up OBL then and there but he was so self-conscious he settled for a token missle strike.

Bush did not invade the "wrong" country. You know damn well we didn't invade Iraq to get Osama Bin Laden so stop using childish diversions and simplifications. We invaded Iraq because of Saddam Hussein and it was a very prudent decision. Letting him grow as a threat until it would be too late to deal with him would have been an irresposible choice.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3300924 - 10/31/04 12:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

argh. and how exactly was Iraq a threat to Americans, again? WMD? :lol:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3300934 - 10/31/04 12:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sorry DS but I've had this argument so many times, I think I've earned the right to use shorthand once in a while.

Like now, I'll simply say, "Bush blurred the line between Iraq and Al Quaeda countless times."

Or, "Iraq was the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time."

How 'bout, "Where in the world is Ossama Bin Laden?"

or

I can suggest, "If we'd listened to our FORMER ALLIES, and let the UN do its job, war with Iraq could have been avoided."

Certainly a conservative, like you, wants his 200 billion dollars back. I know I do.

Come on, Election's 2 days away. Lets start typing sound bites.

We only have time for a lightning round.

If you want to see a lengthier discussion of my opinions of Dubbya', I  suggest you use the search function.

:smile:


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Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3301044 - 10/31/04 01:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
I'm sorry DS but I've had this argument so many times, I think I've earned the right to use shorthand once in a while.

Like now, I'll simply say, "Bush blurred the line between Iraq and Al Quaeda countless times."
There is no meaningful line between them.  They were both criminals who sought to cause harm to American interests
Or, "Iraq was the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The right time was in 1990, so you are technically correct.  And the wrong place?  Where would you prefer to fight the Iraq war, Central Park?
How 'bout, "Where in the world is Ossama Bin Laden?"
Sum total of OBL activities in the US for the last 3 years....videos.  I was doubting that he was even alive.  Now we don't have to doubt that we're searching for something that isn't there.  What a dumbass.

or

I can suggest, "If we'd listened to our FORMER ALLIES, and let the UN do its job, war with Iraq could have been avoided."
What former allies?  Russia? Other side of Cold war.  Germany?  Definitely our friends in WW2.  France?  Will someone please tell me what the French have done for us since the Revolutionary War, when it was in their interest to tweak the British lion.  They are only our allies in the sense that we have done things for them.  They haven't done a thing for us in 200 years!  The UN do it's job?  When has that ever occurred.  If they had done their job the munitions at al-QaQaa would have been destroyed 10 years ago.  Nice work they're doing in the Sudan, by the way.

Certainly a conservative, like you, wants his 200 billion dollars back. I know I do.

Come on, Election's 2 days away. Lets start typing sound bites.
okay, sound bites
Hey Kerry, how many buildings did you name today?
Nice job in the Sudan UN.  Body counters without peer.
Dear Jacques, what have you done for me lately (in the last 2 centuries)?
Dear Vladimir, How's that newspaper thing working out over there?  Got any opponents left for the next election?
Hey Gerhardt,  Any Jews left?

We only have time for a lightning round.

If you want to see a lengthier discussion of my opinions of Dubbya', I  suggest you use the search function.

:smile:




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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301120 - 10/31/04 01:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zap said:

The right time was in 1990, so you are technically correct. And the wrong place? Where would you prefer to fight the Iraq war, Central Park?
_____________________________________________

Would I rather fight Iraq in Central Park?

WTF?

I'm sorry, AL QUAEDA has already attacked New York... TWICE!

Iraq never did such a thing.

I'd rather fight Al Quaeda than Iraq... PERIOD.

Not too smart using that Iraq in Central Park analogy with a New Yorker.


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Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301232 - 10/31/04 02:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There is no meaningful line between them. They were both criminals who sought to cause harm to American interests

What "interests" was Saddam seeking to "cause harm to"? Don't you actually need to "cause harm" before you judge someone guilty? Or have you devised a new "thought crime" where if Saddam "thinks a negative thought" about George Bush 100,000 innocent people must be slaughtered in an invasion?

The right time was in 1990

No, the right time was way back in the early 1980's when he would have lost the war with Iran and probably been weakened and overthrown as a result. If only Reagan and Bush hadn't armed him to the teeth.

Sum total of OBL activities in the US for the last 3 years....videos

And before the 2001 attack the sum total of his activities in the US for the previous 8 years was what exactly?

What former allies? Russia? Other side of Cold war. Germany? Definitely our friends in WW2

WW2 was 50 years ago. Get over it.

How about your former ally Osama? You were arming him in the 80's remember.

Hey Gerhardt, Any Jews left?

So you're blaming Gerhardt for killing the jews? Then I presume you're happy to blame GW for his grand-daddy doing deals with the Nazi's?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3301234 - 10/31/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a New Yorker too and I know for goddam sure that I'm glad ALL of Al-Q's attention is focused in Iraq. I'm also glad that Saddam is no longer available to supply them. They had their differences but if you don't think they would have eventually found common cause against us you are a fool.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301254 - 10/31/04 02:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well, in all truth - saddam hussein was not very highly thought of amongst fundamentalist muslims. for all the horrible acts he committed against his own, and the kuwati people (not to mention the poor kurds...) - one area he took a strong stance on was against the uprising of fundamentalist islam. hussein based his rule on very secular issues - to him, groups like Al-Q represented a huge threat...

i think Saddam would have been more than happy to keep doing business with the West as long as they would have allowed it. Unfortunately for him, he pissed off Papa Bush in the early 90s, and fell out of favour with the govts of the west...

but to compare a group like Al-Q and Saddam Hussein is quite a lot like comparing the black panthers and the KKK. sure, both might hate the gov't, but their basic beliefs would stop them from ever working together...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301265 - 10/31/04 02:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a New Yorker too and I know for goddam sure that I'm glad ALL of Al-Q's attention is focused in Iraq

Horseshit. Just 2% of the fighters picked up in Iraq have been foreign. The vast bulk are ordinary Iraqis who have nothing to do with Al-Q.

I'm also glad that Saddam is no longer available to supply them.

Horseshit. Never happened.

They had their differences but if you don't think they would have eventually found common cause against us you are a fool.

Horseshit. They hadn't found common cause till now. Try and incorporate reality into your opinions.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Xlea321]
    #3301291 - 10/31/04 02:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I'm a New Yorker too and I know for goddam sure that I'm glad ALL of Al-Q's attention is focused in Iraq

Horseshit. Just 2% of the fighters picked up in Iraq have been foreign. The vast bulk are ordinary Iraqis who have nothing to do with Al-Q.

I'm also glad that Saddam is no longer available to supply them.

Horseshit. Never happened.

They had their differences but if you don't think they would have eventually found common cause against us you are a fool.

Horseshit. They hadn't found common cause till now. Try and incorporate reality into your opinions.






Fuckin A! how are people so easily minipulated. zappaisgod stop watching fox news, its making you retarded. Open your eyes, and see whats going on around you. They had a 9-11 commision report, even tho the president was strongly against it, and you know what they found? NO Ties between Al-Q and Saddam.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Xlea321]
    #3301315 - 10/31/04 02:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
There is no meaningful line between them. They were both criminals who sought to cause harm to American interests

What "interests" was Saddam seeking to "cause harm to"? Don't you actually need to "cause harm" before you judge someone guilty? Or have you devised a new "thought crime" where if Saddam "thinks a negative thought" about George Bush 100,000 innocent people must be slaughtered in an invasion?
He attempted to assassinate a US president, among other things. It was against our interests for him to invade Kuwait. It was against our interests for him to develop a nuclear program. Lots of things he did were against our interests but Kuwait was enough for us to remove him.I am not the least bit interested in applying the innocent until proven guilty model nor am I interested in waiting until he commits another criminal act. He earned the death penalty long ago. And your 100,000 number is crapulous nonsense. See the thread regarding it. Range of casualties in that "study" was 8,000 to 194,000.

The right time was in 1990

No, the right time was way back in the early 1980's when he would have lost the war with Iran and probably been weakened and overthrown as a result. If only Reagan and Bush hadn't armed him to the teeth.
No, he was a useful tool against a more immediate enemy at the time. Iran remains an enemy and a threat. Can you say next? The enemy of my enemy is a tool. Why shouldn't I use it. Armed him to the teeth? Well, they certainly stood up well.
Sum total of OBL activities in the US for the last 3 years....videos

And before the 2001 attack the sum total of his activities in the US for the previous 8 years was what exactly?
I consider ships at sea to be my territory, as well as embassies
What former allies? Russia? Other side of Cold war. Germany? Definitely our friends in WW2

WW2 was 50 years ago. Get over it.
The point is that these people are NOT our allies. What have these people ever done for us?????"Traditional" allies? Russia and Germany???? What tradition is that? France? Who the fuck are these people and what have they ever done for us? Are they our allies because we have helped them????Get over WW2??? No, I don't think so.
How about your former ally Osama? You were arming him in the 80's remember.
The enemy of my enemy is a tool. Who fucking elected him the spokesman for the Saudi people. Did he ask them if they would rather live under Saddam or under the Saudi "royal" family. Our troops were there at the behest of the ruling Saudi government to fend off the threat of Saddam. This happened to coincide with our interests. OBL does not represent the wishes of the majority os Saudi citizens, and Saudi women
Hey Gerhardt, Any Jews left?
So you're blaming Gerhardt for killing the jews? Then I presume you're happy to blame GW for his grand-daddy doing deals with the Nazi's?
He asked for sound bites, I gave him some. Anti-semitism is ascendant throughout Europe and our "traditional" ally Germany is rather famous for it







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Invisiblegdman
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3301320 - 10/31/04 02:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

you would think that al-q would hate saddam... as sadam is secular, his government was secular.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3301360 - 10/31/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dreamer987 said:

Fuckin A! how are people so easily minipulated. zappaisgod stop watching fox news, its making you retarded. Open your eyes, and see whats going on around you. They had a 9-11 commision report, even tho the president was strongly against it, and you know what they found? NO Ties between Al-Q and Saddam.




I read the NY Times and the NY Post. Every day. I do not get any news from TV. I listen to WABC and Air America. The 9/11 report said that Saddam had offered assistance to OBL. OBL had not accepted it because he didn't need it, yet. The Duelfer report, IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ IT said that Saddam was just waiting for the sanctions to end to restart his programs. Where do you get YOUR brainwashing from? Dan Rather?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301376 - 10/31/04 03:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

When exactly were these sanctions (Which worked BTW... NO WMD'S! NO FLY ZONE!) scheduled to end?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3301443 - 10/31/04 03:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
When exactly were these sanctions (Which worked BTW... NO WMD'S! NO FLY ZONE!) scheduled to end?




Do you mean the no fly zone we were being targeted in everyday? No WMDs? We don't know that. My bet is that they got moved out just in time. The sanctions worked to fill Saddam's, Benon Sevan's, various French and Russian officials' bank accounts. When were they to end? Who knows. It would've happened sooner or later though because wimps like Jimmy Carter would have whined about how much they were hurting the Iraqi babies.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301454 - 10/31/04 03:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, that's the No Fly Zone I meant.

The one where NO AMERICANS WERE SHOT DOWN... for 10 years... while they enforced it.

That's the one.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3301477 - 10/31/04 03:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Damn fine machines, those Russian AA batteries


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301483 - 10/31/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:


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InvisibleKrishna
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Registered: 05/08/03
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301539 - 10/31/04 03:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


Quote:

Cervantes said:
When exactly were these sanctions (Which worked BTW... NO WMD'S! NO FLY ZONE!) scheduled to end?




well, i would disagree that the sanctions were "working" in the most effective manner. yeah, they were stopping Saddam from ammasing more weapons (as Hans Blix pointed out numerous times, though G Dub didn't find it necessary to listen...). But - the sanctions in Iraq also had a horrible toll on the Iraqi people - a people who had already suffered underneath a horrible (and western-supported) dictatorship. and while the sanctions were certainly a better way to disarm iraq and render Saddam impotent than going to war was - i think that the "better of two shitty choices" argument isn't one that the world should be making its decisions by. the problem that we had to face in iraq was, at the heart of it, a problem that the western world created (or at least seriously fostered). and, from my view of it - the current policy of the US is only creating more of these problems, not trying to resolve them before they occur...


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Krishna]
    #3301578 - 10/31/04 04:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with that assessment of the sanctions. They stopped Sadam's ability to build shitloads of weapons... but the Iraqi citizens suffered greatly for it.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: Rose]
    #3303207 - 11/01/04 12:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hah America is making a big mistake occupying a bitterly hostile land with only 137,000 troops and trying to rewire their economy and infrastructure by themselves... Can you say giant waste.

We went into Iraq for the simple reason to have a strong presence in the middle east. You cant push democracy on these people... Change has to come from within.

Like silversoul said History will always prove nation builders wrong.


You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.
Ho Chi Minh


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bush Administration Most Corrupt In US History [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3303244 - 11/01/04 12:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, not always... but often.


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