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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27094868 -

So I'm not a big fan of Stamets, I know people who used to know him, and he seems like mostly a self promotion. I'm ok with promotion but some self promotion rubs me the wrong way.

I do enjoy McKenna. I really like his opposition to the cult of scientism, I like his dogged pursuit of really wide view of reality, too many specialists I think now.

And I think of him mostly as a poet. The way he talks I think is best explained by his early forays into literature and poetry, and it's very enjoyable to listen to.

However I don't just believe what people say. I'm into rigorous evaluation of claims.

I am interested in hallucinations. It's fascinating that people see the same entities when tripping. I don't know what to make of that. It has to mean something. And, the imagination part of the brain appears to be heavily stimulated and we really don't know anything about that in terms of neurology.

So it certainly is of interest.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27094891 -

funny thing about roads - you're thinking in terms of particles. but a wave is perfectly capable of taking both roads at the same time. progress is often described as a wave, a sweeping tide that washes away the old and brings change.

and i said people are reasonable beings. i never said they were good reasons. ;3 you're confusing reason with logic there. reason is not logic. a person have perfectly valid reasons for doing something, even if they're perfectly bad reasons. if you were to live in their shoes, you might even see how they came to their conclusions and reasoning - even if you didn't agree with it, because your own experiences (and reasoning) is different from theirs.

human beings use both logic and reason, and sometimes (often) they're at odds with each other. the tricky part is learning to balance the two, so that you're not just a fleshy robot, but also not a crazy karen, or worse... a vegan. ::shudder:: (i'm poking fun here, really! vegetarians are cool. it's just that i've yet to meet a sane vegan. i'm sure they exist though! ...probably.)

anyways, dmt alone might not be enough to save the world, but paired with therapy, it very well might. psychedelics are quite literally the penicillin of the mental world, and i don't say that lightly. things from addiction to depression to PTSD are all some of the highly promising ailments they can treat or outright cure in the majority of people, especially with a therapist to guide that person. that isn't to say that alone they can't treat a person, but it's often better paired with therapy, just like it's better to have a doctor to set a broken bone for you than to try and set it yourself. (unless you REALLY know what you're doing).

i can attest personally to psychedelics power to cure depression, as i didn't even realize how depressed i was until i first tripped. once i did, it was like a massive weight was lifted off my shoulders. i hadn't realized just how monotone my voice had become, how little joy i had been experiencing from life, how apathetic i had become, until i had that weight taken off. it's been over 2 years and it's not come back - in fact, if anything i've felt less depressed than i've ever felt in my life. i've started to lose weight, become healthier, and feel like i'm getting on track with my life for the first time. if that sort of change were to become widespread in people, imagine the ripples of changes it would cause throughout society.

a world full of happier, healthier people who desire to make the world a better place? i'm pretty sure the world would suddenly start changing for the better far quicker than you would think.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion] * 1
    #27094999 -

It's not that psychedelics are just good at curing people, they are capable of making you better when there's nothing obviously wrong with you at all. :solidnod:

They can bring out the best in humans.  OP can get off the fence and find out. :cookiemonster:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27095011 -

FYI it's never going to happen. Ive heard people say what you are saying almost word for word since the 80's, and it went the other way as fast as it could go.

It's every man for himself. I am becoming food independent for that reason. Americans are being destroyed by the food supply and there is no way out unless you live in a few rare areas that real food is available, or you grow your own. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is. It's brutally hard and difficult work but you have to walk the talk at some point, rather than passively waiting for someone else to fix things for you.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27095079 -

every man for himself is the mindset that leads to tribalism, and thus, a lack of progress. it is only through cooperation and reaching out that modern civilization exists at all. the reason technology has exponentially increased is due to communication - look what happened when the internet was invented and the age of information came to be. science progressed, not by leaps and bounds, by by literal warpspeed.

who would have thought that in only a few decades we would have gone from the first mac and floppydisk to freaking smartphones, reusable rockets, robotic limb replacements that amputees can control with their thoughts almost like their original limb, lab grown beef, solar panels that are one of the cheapest forms of energy now, self-driving cars, GMOs, and fusion reactors that are approaching breakeven threshholds, with theoretical outputs of 10 times threshhold energy?

it's only sensible. you can only do so much alone. the more people there are, the more possibilities there are. we may have created this mess, but there's billions of us on this planet. that means billions of potential workers, billions of potential thinkers to come up with solutions to our problems. we aren't the earth's problem - we're it's best solution. we simply have to reach out to each other and strive for greatness, not cower and pretend it will all go away if we hide in some remote wilderness.

because i can assure you, you won't get everyone on board with your "cower in the wilderness" idea. far better to actually address the earth's issues and try to get everyone working together.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27095134 -

:werd:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27095156 -

Never going to happen bros. Ive heard alternative energy and whatever else is just a few years away since the 80's. GMOs are terrible and our ag soils are dying. Self driving electric cars will be run on coal. California is suffering brown outs because green energy is failing and will continue to fail. I live in the real world, not imaginary make believe worlds. China and India are emitting at astonishing levels, Ameicans and Europeans continue to emit whenever they feel like.

The super geniuses are again saying we have 10 years left.

The only way out is back to the jungle if you believe this sort of thing. It's the only way. I'm going back to the farm for the food

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27095180 -

er... you haven't been reading the news lately then on fusion then. it's kind of different this time. for one thing, we've got far better options this time around for fusion reactors, using supercomputers and AI to model plasma (plus new math formulas that are MUCH better at predicting the chaotic motion of a hot ball of plasma) than we did in the 80s. plus far better materials to contain it. not to mention a better way of actually testing reactors - we have 3D printers now. instead of years of design > build a model > test > damnit now we gotta tweak a part > repeat we can simply design certain parts via 3D modeling, tweak them as needed, and use 3D printers (these aren't your home models that just shoot plastic either) and send a new adjusted part to optimize the reactor design as needed.

this means that what used to take years or decades of development and far more money now takes months, and allows scientists far more wiggle room with experimenting and optimizing, allowing them to explore more possibilities that could work to maximize energy yield.

in the GMO field, what evidence do you have for the GMOs are terrible argument? because that's one hell of a blanket statement. all it is, is a modern equivalent of altering genetic blueprints, the same thing we've been doing for millennia, only now it's using a surgeons scalpel where before we were using a rusty steak knife. if you're going to scream Monsanto at me, that's not GMOs fault. that's Monsanto's fault. that has absolutely nothing to do with GMOs and something to do with a company.

all you're doing is saying "oh well, let's just give up, we're all doomed" instead of reaching out and trying to strive for solutions with others. all that's going to lead to is either enough people believing that, that the efforts to save the world fail, civilization crashes, and humanity either gets wiped out or winds up having to restart (and with even worse conditions than the first time), or the rest of modern civilization succeeds despite naysayers like you, and you'll have to live your life remembering that you were one of the ones who gave up and did nothing while the rest of us were striving to save everyone, yourself included.

i dunno about you, but i would feel pretty awful myself in either situation unless i was one of the ones doing everything i could to save the world - and just going off into the woods is certainly not doing all i can to save the world.

as far as california suffering brown outs, i've lived in california for 30 years. you know what the brown outs are like?

...nothingburgers, pretty much. maybe the lights go out once every week or two during the summer months for a minute or two. and this has a lot to do with, not green energy, but lack of energy storage and failing infrastructure, because america is way behind the times. there are options to address these already, such as gravity based storage, that would make such things part of the past - but that requires investment. and investment means money, which of course no businessman wants to actually INVEST because they want short term gains. the thought of spending money now to reap large rewards later, even financial ones, is something few businessmen have the balls to do. (partly because so many CEOs are quite literally mental cases.)

and china is doing quite well on emissions per person compared to the US. they might have twice the emissions total as us, but they're less than half the emissions per person as the average US citizen. india's is even less than chinas, both in total and per capita.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27095201 -

Psion said:
er... you haven't been reading the news lately then on fusion then. it's kind of different this time.


Lol so hard.

Quote:
for one thing, we've got far better options this time around for fusion reactors, using supercomputers and AI to model plasma (plus new math formulas that are MUCH better at predicting the chaotic motion of a hot ball of plasma) than we did in the 80s. plus far better materials to contain it. not to mention a better way of actually testing reactors - we have 3D printers now. instead of years of design > build a model > test > damnit now we gotta tweak a part > repeat we can simply design certain parts via 3D modeling, tweak them as needed, and use 3D printers (these aren't your home models that just shoot plastic either) and send a new adjusted part to optimize the reactor design as needed.

this means that what used to take years or decades of development and far more money now takes months, and allows scientists far more wiggle room with experimenting and optimizing, allowing them to explore more possibilities that could work to maximize energy yield.


How much money are you investing in this.

Quote:
in the GMO field, what evidence do you have for the GMOs are terrible argument? because that's one hell of a blanket statement.


There is evidence that I will have to re-find that GMO crops do not work well with soil microbes and require chemical fertilizers, which is double negative whammy to the soil. Root exudates build soil carbon, so when the microbes disappear soil carbon starts to drop, requiring more synthetics which also redice soil carbon and you have a dead soil.

GMOs are only being used because the soils are failing, if we had healthy agricultural soils GMO would not be needed. We never to splice genes to ward off pathogens until recent decades. Our soils are failing because of industrial practices which will not change.

Quote:
all it is, is a modern equivalent of altering genetic blueprints, the same thing we've been doing for millennia, only now it's using a surgeons scalpel where before we were using a rusty steak knife. if you're going to scream Monsanto at me, that's not GMOs fault. that's Monsanto's fault. that has absolutely nothing to do with GMOs and something to do with a company.


We've never spliced genes from other life forms before, to the best of my knowledge. But that's beside my point.

Quote:
all you're doing is saying "oh well, let's just give up, we're all doomed"


Environmentalists are the ones saying we are all doomed. I'm only taking the rational next steps based on that premise. We've lived primitively before, we can do it again.

Quote:
instead of reaching out


Reach out to who. Environmental leaders are busy flying jets to their conferences and won't work or even talk with you or me. They would step over you in the street and don't care if you live or die.

Quote:
and trying to strive for solutions with others. all that's going to lead to is either enough people believing that, that the efforts to save the world fail, civilization crashes, and humanity either gets wiped out or winds up having to restart (and with even worse conditions than the first time), or the rest of modern civilization succeeds despite naysayers like you,


I'm not the naysayer. I am taking radical action to save myself.

Quote:
and you'll have to live your life remembering that you were one of the ones who gave up and did nothing while the rest of us were striving to save everyone, yourself included.


Lol. Did you read this before you pressed submit.

Quote:
i dunno about you, but i would feel pretty awful myself in either situation unless i was one of the ones doing everything i could to save the world - and just going off into the woods is certainly not doing all i can to save the world.


I personally do not know of a single person saving the world. Why you would put that on me boggles my mind.

Quote:
as far as california suffering brown outs, i've lived in california for 30 years. you know what the brown outs are like?

...nothingburgers, pretty much. maybe the lights go out once every week or two during the summer months for a minute or two. and this has a lot to do with, not green energy, but lack of energy storage and failing infrastructure, because america is way behind the times.


Not America. California.

Quote:
there are options to address these already, such as gravity based storage, that would make such things part of the past - but that requires investment. and investment means money, which of course no businessman wants to actually INVEST because they want short term gains.


Or that stuff doesn't actually work. Business people will do whatever you pay them to do, so I guess another California backfire.

Quote:
the thought of spending money now to reap large rewards later, even financial ones, is something few businessmen have the balls to do. (partly because so many CEOs are quite literally mental cases.)


How about you. Would you do it? Do you invest for the long term without any thought of short term gain? Do you ask other people to do what you won't do.

Quote:
and china is doing quite well on emissions per person compared to the US. they might have twice the emissions total as us, but they're less than half the emissions per person as the average US citizen. india's is even less than chinas, both in total and per capita.


Emissions are growing, all around the world, like they have since beginning of industry. And it won't stop.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #27095212 -

LosTresOjos said:
You are missing the mark here buddy.

Mushrooms are like a telescope or a microscope. People buy these things to play around with and some buy these things to do some research that they care deeply about. Same thing with psychedelics.
They can be miss used.

Reading until your eyes bleed will get you no closer to the experience and once you are in you will see the correlations mckenna was making. They are crystal clear.

Also, i'm vary wary of straight people. Why would you not want to have points of triangulation for your self?

Don't let your fears control you. You are in control of that fear.


Like most things, the people that could benefit the most, are usually the most resistant.

Very well said here, my friend.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #27095251 -

PrimalSoup said:
Well, you're missing the experience, and no amount of research can prepare you for that.

Whether you'd find it valuable or not nobody else can say, and there's only one way to find out.  :cookiemonster:


Ballsy answer, I like it cos its true.

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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27095256 -

Do it OP :hereyougo:  :takethefuckingtab:

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27095309 -

Maybe this here is all true, but it's no longer a statement about the psychedelic experience, it's just free association of a few cherry-picked statements. Again, it *might* be true, but I can clearly see you haven't made a good case here.

It seems you have many interests and opinions, both things I think are positives. But perhaps you could benefit from working through them, gaining some clarity on how you understand them? If only there was a way to do that...


--------------------
Knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27095427 -

Thanks, I'm not really making a case. I've been listening to McKenna for about 6 months and am overflowing with questions and not sure where else to go.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27095947 -

Outerbass said:
Never going to happen bros. Ive heard alternative energy and whatever else is just a few years away since the 80's. GMOs are terrible and our ag soils are dying. Self driving electric cars will be run on coal. California is suffering brown outs because green energy is failing and will continue to fail. I live in the real world, not imaginary make believe worlds. China and India are emitting at astonishing levels, Ameicans and Europeans continue to emit whenever they feel like.

The super geniuses are again saying we have 10 years left.

The only way out is back to the jungle if you believe this sort of thing. It's the only way. I'm going back to the farm for the food


Well your ignorance is certainly commendable and I wish you well. :cookiemonster:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #27096177 -

honestly, it sounds like you're suffering from at least some depression here, and it's causing you to see the world in a darker view, missing the people that actually ARE striving to make a difference in world, trying to make it a better place. it's pretty easy to do even when you're not suffering from it- negativity always did shout with a voice like thunder, while positivity whispers with a voice gentle as a spring breeze. when you're in the throes of gloom though, it's near impossible to see anything but the worst in everything, because that's what resonates with your own heart and mind.

all i can really say is that there really are lots of people out there that are doing their damnest to save the world in whatever ways they can. hell, i'm only a broke cashier that makes about a thousand bucks a month. i can't do much on my own. i can't invest, i'm barely hanging on with paying my own rent, i'm wearing clothes from years ago and worried about my own future. but i still have a voice. i can still try and help others to strive to do better, to work together, to make the best of themselves and love each other instead of turn against each other.

it might not be much on it's own, but it's better than me trying to run away and live a nomadic existence, even if i've been tempted before. i owe my life to modern civilization, even from the moment of my birth - i wouldn't have survived without a C-section, because i was too big to be born naturally. modern science saved me. modern science is helping me to lose weight, with metformin to fix my metabolic syndrome and topamax to deal with the damn migraines i've suffered all my life. there may be lots of issues to solve yet, but i owe my life to those who came before, and thus i should do my best to pay it forward to those who come after as well, and in so doing benefit myself as well.

a journey is better shared than walked alone, after all.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27096794 -

It's very strange that you guys would attribute a discussion in facts to personality defects, I don't think there is a need to do that.

I don't think that because some things are working means all things will work. The issues I've touched upon have been traveling in a straight line for 2 generations with no indication of changing. The pipe dreams of yesterday are still in the pipe only, with a record of nothing but failed promises.

I believe that if we never left the farm you would not have metabolic syndrome. I think the farm/garden is the foundation of life, and that is a positive hopeful thing not defeatist. The greatest joys in my life are in the garden. I think modern people leaving their gardens was a fatal mistake.

I am a world leading expert in carbon rich fungally dominated soils. That is the opposite of ignorant. There are few people I can even talk to about it because I know so much, and I am on the cutting edge of that research.

But if my football team is losing the game I don't pretend to myself they aren't. I've evangelized gardening for several years and made zero converts. I've literally convinced no one to garden. I have one of the top 3 gardens in the world and nobody cares. It is what it is. Noah convinced nobody.

If I believed in DMT I would move to the jungle. If I was carbonphobic I would move to the jungle. It is an actual answer, not a science fiction heavy on the fiction answer. That's the thing I am into actual answers. Growing your own food is an actual answer. It is positive wonderful thing, there is nothing depressing about it.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27096873 -

Yeah, I think it's immature to attack you personally here. You're just skeptical.

First and foremost, I want to say, I don't think you necessarily need to do any psychedelic. You seem relatively happy and fulfilled so maybe you don't want to introduce psychedelics into your life. I think that's perfectly reasonable and sometimes I wish I had taken more time to decide if I really wanted the psychedelic experience or not. A lot of what can be achieved through psychedelics can be achieved through other mediums as well. You do seem slightly curious though, so don't necessarily take that as discouragement, just a cation of sorts.

Secondly, I think a lot of people involved in psychedelics did make moves to achieve their ideal community. Communes of the 60's make up recognizable portion of these attempts, even if a lot of them ended up petering out or falling short. Mckenna himself moved to Hawaii and started his own ethnobotanical preserve.

This is in many ways similar to what you've chosen to do with your life, except of course you provide yourself and possible your friends and family with food, whereas Mckenna provided those around him with access to the experiences he preached about. In doing this, he was enacting his ideals, even if it's not in the way you envisioned.


--------------------
LOVE

Edited by jesusfish (12/19/20 01:15 AM)

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27096988 -

Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think sometimes it's nice to just be understood by another person, I don't even think we need that much validation.

And we're just bros talking about life from different walks of life, no harm no foul. No offense taken, none given.

I do think McKenna did the right thing moving to Hawaii. I like that. I like taking action. I didn't look at my gardening as a political statement or intellectual vanity, it just seemed like the most obvious thing to do, and have been surprised nobody else sees it that way. However consequences do flow from our decisions, our actions and inactions.

It was too bad he got cancer. I would hope the answer to cancer was indeed in the botanicals and the plants. Even though he couldn't find it, hopefully it is in there,

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27097028 -

oh man if mckenna was alive still. WTF :mindblown:

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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