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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... * 9
    #15181139 - 10/05/11 12:18 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

This is a bioassay result, but it confirms something I've suspected.  I recently ran a bunch of Ps. cubensis, v. Wild Texan, and one of the minitubs spent an extra month (approx) outside the FC in GE consolidation mode.  Did some minor pinning.  When introduced to FC as you might expect it flushed vigorously, with a fine efficiency, and I proceeded to imbibe (as tea) what I expected to be my usual second-day dose from less than half of the flush.

OMG!  Badly underestimated this - the fruits were about 50% stronger than expected and luridly psychedelic, which was itself interesting because I've been about to abandon the strain I've been growing due to lowering potency.

My thinking is it's the time-to-fruiting that accounts for this, and I'd extend it as a likely factor for PE and other slow growing strains' potency reports.  There was no obvious extreme bluing, and the fruits were picked when well into sporulation (making prints from these).

If this belongs over in general cult please move it and TIA but many things posted over there get little more than a "oh cool" and I'm more interested in specific mechanisms at work.

Have a look at the grow itself.

:peace:PS


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Edited by PrimalSoup (10/18/11 02:51 PM)


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15181476 - 10/05/11 01:35 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Was it MS or an Isolate?


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: FuckMeRunnin] * 1
    #15181657 - 10/05/11 02:24 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Had been isolated some on agar, not a pure culture as it's shown overlapping flushing behavior.

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15181977 - 10/05/11 03:35 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting, when I let a tub consolidate for longer then usual, all I ended up with was overlay haha.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: FuckMeRunnin] * 1
    #15184675 - 10/06/11 01:52 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

very interesting! i'm very curious as to what the subsequent flushes will look like. how much did the substrate shrink?

suppose the mycelium is storing up energy while its consolidating and consuming the substrate. If its not storing energy, could it be making these nutrients readily available by breaking down the substrate but not consuming/converting it into fruiting bodies, for when its time to fruit?  Then when these fruiting conditions are introduced the mycelium devotes all this stored energy into that first flush resulting in what you say is a noticeably stronger fruit.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: SickDog] * 1
    #15186232 - 10/06/11 12:15 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Well, not long to wait, as the 2nd flush started within days of harvesting the first.

I've had the same thoughts.  It's pretty clear that little if no actives exist in the substrate until fruiting, and IME little if no actives exist in the substrate even after fruiting (yes, the taste is terrible, even from pure grain subs :thumbdown:). 

:peace:PS


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: FuckMeRunnin] * 1
    #15186241 - 10/06/11 12:18 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Interesting, when I let a tub consolidate for longer then usual, all I ended up with was overlay haha.




I took some pics of the sub before introduction to fruiting - obviously raring to go:



No overlay there, but some tiny snakes are evident. :lol:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: PrimalSoup] * 3
    #15187095 - 10/06/11 03:12 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Don't people swear that sclerotia is much more potent the longer you leave it in the jar? I hear people say the reason for bad stones is because they haven't been left in the jar long enough. Maybe colonization time in general is important when it comes to potency. I do know that the slowest fruiters I have grown have always been the most potent.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: FuckMeRunnin] * 1
    #15187231 - 10/06/11 03:46 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I concur with FMR. The slower growers tend to be more potent and the longer you leave stones to grow the more potent they are said to be. Two BRF jars I left to consolidate for 6 weeks and the fruits I got from them were a lot more potent then the ones I consolidated for 1 week.

I've also noticed that if I leave my monos to colonize and consolidate until they begin to pin, the fruits tend to be more potent as well.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: Wing] * 1
    #15189351 - 10/06/11 10:17 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

:themoreyouknow:


I'll definitely be keeping this in mind :thumbup:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15190526 - 10/07/11 08:00 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

You might be onto something here, it would make sense for the fungi to produce more secondary metabolites if fruiting temperatures are not ideal. Since it wont be using energy on reproduction it will favor other processes in stead.

I think some of the same principles applies for slow brewing beer, explaining why it has more flavor because the yeast produce more secondary metabolites (among other factors of course).


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: Wing] * 1
    #15191696 - 10/07/11 01:21 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

winged_1 said:
I concur with FMR. The slower growers tend to be more potent and the longer you leave stones to grow the more potent they are said to be. Two BRF jars I left to consolidate for 6 weeks and the fruits I got from them were a lot more potent then the ones I consolidated for 1 week.

I've also noticed that if I leave my monos to colonize and consolidate until they begin to pin, the fruits tend to be more potent as well.




Yeah, I think I'm on-board this train. To the extent that I'm thinking about scheduling my grow cycles to allow for a month or two of set-aside time in GE consolidation.  The 2nd flush is getting close on the tub I've described and I'll be very interested to see if it matches the first in potency, a few days on.

'Cause think about it - if all you really have to do to get uberpotent fruits is leave your tubs in consolidation for a longer period, what's the downside? (well, OK, maybe more contamination.  But work with clean stuff and leave it be while it sits and all should be safe.  Fully colonized sub is very stable IME.)

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: PrimalSoup] * 2
    #15192124 - 10/07/11 03:06 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

With slow growing fruits in general, I don't really know the advantage of longer colonization. I did a APE grow recently and the colonization of the grain was very very slow. The colonization of the bulk sub was ungodly quick. I did a 1:2 ration and had full colonization in 7 days. I let it go three more and fruited it. The growth after seeing pins was extremely long. I believe it took something like over two weeks from pins to mature fruit. It was an isolate and the potency was out of this world. Most people that tripped off of it wouldn't go above .5 grams. Two grams put you on the moon. What I'm thinking is that in slow growing "strains" like APE the longer colonization isn't necessary because of the length of time the actual fruits take to develop. Same with my PF Redspore, the actual fruiting time from pin to mature mush was also very long. It wasn't quit as long as APE, but the potency was much stronger then a regular cube, but no were near as strong as the APE.

I also remember seeing RR said that one week consolidation for cakes was recommended, but a month is ideal. That may go along with what the above poster is saying.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: FuckMeRunnin] * 1
    #15193297 - 10/07/11 08:05 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Different myc grows at different speed on different subs, IME.  Have you tried setting something like APE aside for long consolidations as well?  I agree that the slower fruiting strains run to higher potency.

Yeah, RR endorsed the long consolidation scenario when I first mentioned it, oh, sometime last year. :thumbup:

His point was also for the shiitakes he grows, to maximize use of the fruiting space he wants one fast strong flush, and you get that from extended consolidation.

So I'm going to be doing some PEU grows now, and I'll try this in whatever combinations make sense.  I'm going after absolute potency to save space in storage and growing.

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15200077 - 10/09/11 12:06 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

When you say "GE consolidation mode", is it the "normal"  few holes in a box with polyfill and the lid on?


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush [Re: XAXAU] * 1
    #15202611 - 10/09/11 09:27 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

It's a Sterlite 6 qt tub with a liner folded down on the top of the substrate and a pair of 5/8" or so holes in either end above that with micropore tape on the holes.  Low GE.

Will be trying the second flush tomorrow. :awetongue:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15243277 - 10/18/11 02:53 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

So anyway, the results are in for the second flush as well (280g wet).  Same effect. :Awemush:

Very interesting so far, and now I'm awaiting bioassay test time for the 3rd flush underway now.

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15243529 - 10/18/11 04:01 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Excellent! :thumbup:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: HorizonSpawn] * 3
    #15250420 - 10/20/11 12:33 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I've noticed this as well, so it would be nice to see a lot more growers try longer consolidation times and report results to see if it's for real or an anomaly.
RR


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #15254208 - 10/20/11 08:56 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I would try this idea out. How long do you think is too long for consolidation?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: wildernessjunkie] * 1
    #15254601 - 10/20/11 10:19 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I have started trying this out, thanks for starting this thread PS!
I have several cakes and trays all consolidating for different amounts, but all longer than the standard 1 week. So i will report how it goes if anyone is interested.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Fungus_monk] * 1
    #15256781 - 10/21/11 12:52 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Hey thanks and yeah, do report.:thumbup:

I've been thinking about how to test this out more rigorously and think that starting the same isolate from storage at different times, with different consolidation times, say normal (~a week), +1 month, +2 months for starters, might work.  I.e. you'd grow out your stock culture at 1 month intervals into bulk tubs and leave the result to consolidate over a 2 month span of 3 grows, then introduce them all to fruiting at the same time and compare directly the results.

BTW, the 3rd flush off the minitub was less spectacular at 133g wet, and the tub pretty obviously is now flushed out.  It produced the normal amount overall with a heavier than average first flush.  I think RR has mentioned this as well in terms of maximizing production from shiitakes where the fruiting space is the limiting factor...

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15261089 - 10/22/11 09:55 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

This is interesting. I'll be following this  :strokebeard:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: ubertox] * 1
    #15262894 - 10/22/11 06:09 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

:nyan:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: extrema] * 2
    #15263949 - 10/22/11 10:13 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Nice info here.

Id guess that the use of late casing to avoid overlay during the consolidation stage, would be the way to go.

:thumbup:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: sinewave] * 1
    #15264148 - 10/22/11 10:53 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I cased at the time of spawning to the bulk sub and just let it sit, there was no overlay...

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 2
    #15265120 - 10/23/11 06:55 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

did you know that several years ago there were quite a few posts regarding this connection? in this thread you have 2 trusted cultivators talking about it. mycofile in particular was very adamant, and i guess he posted about this matter quite a bit. heres another old thread about it, mycofile posted in that one as well.

i used to always leave my cakes to consolidate for 3 weeks or so. however, my bulk is spawned right at 100% and fruited right when they pin (and that takes place immediately after sub is at 100%). i've always wondered why the potency was sooo much greater when i did cakes. i'm not taking about a subtle diffrence either, it was drastic.

:strokebeard:
this idea seems very promising to me. if i ever get another tub going, i'm definitely trying this out!!!!


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: awakendone] * 1
    #15266563 - 10/23/11 01:54 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Good to see this has been noted before. :irishtoast:

I'm putting it in my sig and will work on it more.

Here's another thread same topic.

Somebody might want to test whether the sub begins to produce actives sometime during the consolidation?  I've seen some studies to suggest that this doesn't happen before pinning.  In the case I described it had started pinning at a low level:



I'm noting that the bulk sub lost structural integrity after the 3rd (and smallest) flush, possibly indicating full consumption by the spawn... :shrug:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15278649 - 10/25/11 09:24 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

:popcorn:

Interesting. I'll be trying this out on my next grow. Recently I've been waiting till I see a few 1" pins to introduce FC... I'll try leaving them in consolidation mode awhile longer.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: SKrink] * 1
    #15281396 - 10/26/11 02:32 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Would i be able to test this out if i left one or two BRF cakes to sit for three weeks instead of one, then compare?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15310049 - 11/01/11 06:34 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

A foaf had similar results to yours concerning consolidation. I was told that his tubs that consolidated for an extra two weeks seemed to be more potent than the ones not consolidated.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: JustChill] * 1
    #15311122 - 11/01/11 09:58 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JustChill said:
Would i be able to test this out if i left one or two BRF cakes to sit for three weeks instead of one, then compare?





Seems that you might.  However I'm only familiar with grain and bulk subs so I can't really say.:mushroomgrow::Awemush:

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: JustChill] * 1
    #15314855 - 11/02/11 07:41 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JustChill said:
Would i be able to test this out if i left one or two BRF cakes to sit for three weeks instead of one, then compare?




yes.

but only using a tested genetic isolate.

not spores.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #15316692 - 11/03/11 07:25 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: chucklehead] * 1
    #15329492 - 11/06/11 12:53 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Very interesting and informative thread :thumbup:

It would be interesting to apply a longer consolidation in combination with the addition of tryptamine to the substrate. So interesting I may have to try it.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: ENtiT] * 1
    #15330946 - 11/06/11 12:36 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

OK, but start another thread for the speculation. :lol:  I don't want this one to get :lockdance:

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15332404 - 11/06/11 06:38 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

<---- ponders :lockdance:
RR


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #15333301 - 11/06/11 10:09 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

NO NO NO...  Only longer consolidation times experiments found here!

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15337040 - 11/07/11 04:44 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I've tried this, Consolidated for as long as possible until it started to pin like hell by itself.

What i noticed. The flush, especially the first has more bigger pinset. The fruits grew allot slower than what i normally see. I haven't eaten them yet, so can't give a trip report yet. But i'm confirming what other people have posted so far.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: virus1824] * 1
    #15340640 - 11/08/11 01:01 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting, I found the first flush both stronger and faster than usual, kind of like they couldn't wait to get those fruits out.  Would be good to see more results...

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15340653 - 11/08/11 01:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I just fruited a second tub. Same species, substrate and temps. lets see if the results are reproducable.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: virus1824] * 1
    #15340979 - 11/08/11 02:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Pics if you got 'em... :thumbup:

Trip reports if you can write 'em... :awecid:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15352978 - 11/10/11 10:20 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

So you disregarded the pinning and let it consolidate?


Edited by KoD (11/10/11 10:21 PM)


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: KoD] * 1
    #15352992 - 11/10/11 10:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

ive long observed this also... longer "consolidation" has time and time again lent itself to overall better performance...


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: KoD] * 1
    #15355425 - 11/11/11 12:37 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So you disregarded the pinning and let it consolidate?




Actually I just let it set and didn't look at it much, so I don't know when it pinned exactly.  When I did have room for it in the FC obviously there had been some pinning.  But it was tiny snakes and not anything significant, so it seemed anyway.  The minitub flushed well twice only, but the first flush was quite heavy.  The smaller third flush was more normal re. potency.

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15370820 - 11/14/11 07:27 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Great info PS, as always :laugh:

I've been fooling with consolidation times too, but to see the effects on fruit production. I came up with <consolidation <speed of fruit maturation, it was all with MS but ~50 jars were used and the trend was always the same.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: BargainBab] * 1
    #15370964 - 11/14/11 07:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Alright :thumbup: - and the potency? :aliceshocker:

I'll be doing strain isolation to test further as I fold it into my standard process...

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15371458 - 11/14/11 09:09 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The smaller third flush was more normal re. potency.




It's common for there to be considerable variance in potency between flushes.
RR


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #15371680 - 11/14/11 09:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

The smaller third flush was more normal re. potency.




It's common for there to be considerable variance in potency between flushes.
RR




even in monocultures?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #15371875 - 11/14/11 10:26 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Wasn't a monoculture, but the particular substrain I've been growing has been going long enough to be losing vitality so I'm starting new stuff.  The 3rd flush potency was even (in bioassay anyway) with the usual consolidation times on this particular culture (ie., adequate but hardly spectacular :tongue:).  The first and 2nd flush were head and shoulders above that.

But yeah, I agree there are differences in potency between flushes, I see that often enough. :thumbup: Usually the last flush they manage to put out has the lowest potency.

For testing this method out I'd look at first flushes only, as they were both bigger and faster than usual.

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15375101 - 11/15/11 05:41 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Alright :thumbup: - and the potency? :aliceshocker:



They all varied from each other, friggin multispore :rolleyes:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: BargainBab] * 2
    #15383946 - 11/17/11 12:31 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Not that it bears much credence in A.M. forum, but when I was a kid of 15 or 16(circa 98-99), living with my parents I had to leave a dozen unfruited jars hidden away until they went out of town. They were left for apprx 3 weeks (@ 100%) until birthed. They were by far the most potent specimens I ever cultivated. My friends STILL refer to those as the rosetta stone to which all are compared to.
:shrug: I just thought I was good at growing, but reading this, it makes sense.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: shLong] * 1
    #15383973 - 11/17/11 12:37 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

my theory directly out of my arse.

Psilopcybin is not a necessary chemical for the growth of the myc or fruits so therefore wouldn't it make sense that in evolution you would first focus on primary survival then work towards the "luxuries"?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Fungi_Fox] * 1
    #15438564 - 11/29/11 01:14 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fungi_Fox said:
my theory directly out of my arse.

Psilopcybin is not a necessary chemical for the growth of the myc or fruits so therefore wouldn't it make sense that in evolution you would first focus on primary survival then work towards the "luxuries"?




maybe it is linked to growth, it might be there to help ensure that the mushroom lives to reproduce, the mushroom could have developed the chemicals to ward off things that wanted to eat them. if i was an animal and i ate a random mushroom and went :crazy2::mushroom2: for a while, i wouldn't touch a mushroom that looked similar to it again


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: wasabi-kun] * 2
    #15438719 - 11/29/11 02:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

if i was an animal and i ate a random mushroom and went  for a while, i wouldn't touch a mushroom that looked similar to it again




yeah, but... you are an animal and not only do you seek the experience, you also grow it


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: wasabi-kun] * 2
    #15440847 - 11/29/11 04:06 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wasabi-kun said:
i was an animal and i ate a random mushroom and went :crazy2::mushroom2: for a while, i wouldn't touch a mushroom that looked similar to it again



animals do take psychedelics. How do you think rudpolph flies!




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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15441412 - 11/29/11 06:16 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Interesting, I found the first flush both stronger and faster than usual, kind of like they couldn't wait to get those fruits out.  Would be good to see more results...

:peace:PS




Hi; I’ve had a similar experience with eight large myco growing bags that I had neglected for a few weeks a number of years ago. When I remembered that I had them they had set up like 5”x8”x6”bricks. So I decided to treat them like really big PF cakes and removed them from their bags, dunked them in RO water for four hours, drained and the placed them on rectangles of heave cooking foil in my growing chambers. The first flush was much larger than normal with large healthy fruit. This went on into the fourth flush when things started to show singes the substrate had been depleted. I have no way of testing if they are more potent and personally feel this is as much a genetics thing as growing conditions; but I do now have twice the quantity of firm healthy mushrooms over a longer time span!


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: CheeWiz] * 1
    #15442150 - 11/29/11 08:36 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

A little off topic; but...  We have TONs of Amanita popping up everywhere, but I can't get a good specimen for printing :frown: The deer religiously eat it all!

I, albeit in ignorance, thought the active compounds where some sort of digestive enzyme :shrug:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: CheeWiz] * 1
    #15442329 - 11/29/11 09:19 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hi; I’ve had a similar experience with eight large myco growing bags that I had neglected for a few weeks a number of years ago. When I remembered that I had them they had set up like 5”x8”x6”bricks. So I decided to treat them like really big PF cakes and removed them from their bags, dunked them in RO water for four hours, drained and the placed them on rectangles of heave cooking foil in my growing chambers. The first flush was much larger than normal with large healthy fruit. This went on into the fourth flush when things started to show singes the substrate had been depleted. I have no way of testing if they are more potent and personally feel this is as much a genetics thing as growing conditions; but I do now have twice the quantity of firm healthy mushrooms over a longer time span!




The complete conversion of the sub into fruits can only be a good thing.  In the case of the tub that started this thread there was no question for me that the fruits were more potent, as I tripped a lot heavier and longer than I expected to on what was my typical amount.  Looking forward to, uhm, full replication. :Awemush:

Good report!

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15468874 - 12/05/11 10:22 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I had four 5 quart block contam, and they started fruiting before full colonization. I ended up with a pile of bunk. One more reason to just toss out the contams as soon as possible I guess.

Normally, I won't introduce fruiting conditions or dunk until it starts knotting.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: maug] * 2
    #15469593 - 12/05/11 01:20 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting that they started fruiting early, but from the standpoint of just getting spores out into the world it makes sense.  No potency, then, that's another point on the plot I'm drawing in my mind. :thumbup:

Almost any time I've tried to contain or remove contams on subs that are about to fruit it's failed in some way.  But I don't recall offhand any big difference in the potency in that case. 

Still, if the myc is stressed as it's going into fruiting it stands to reason that it's going to spend less energy on nonessentials (I assume :strokebeard:) like making strange and wonderful alkaloids.

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15469612 - 12/05/11 01:25 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

So by keeping covered after colonizing is consolidating? And if you let it chill for a while it may produce more potent fruits?

As in holding off throwing into fruiting conditions after full colonization means potent fruit?

Just trying to get on the same page, because I find this to be an epicly informing read.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Icesyn] * 1
    #15469788 - 12/05/11 02:07 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:  Yup.  That's the theory for experimentation and then (bhwahahaha!) exploitation.

:peace:PS


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Edited by PrimalSoup (12/05/11 02:16 PM)


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15470181 - 12/05/11 03:31 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

maug said:
I had four 5 quart block contam, and they started fruiting before full colonization. I ended up with a pile of bunk. One more reason to just toss out the contams as soon as possible I guess.

Normally, I won't introduce fruiting conditions or dunk until it starts knotting.




I had a similar, but different, experience a couple months ago. I was on the second flush of a tub and being very lax with everything. I was trying to see how lax I could be and still get away with decent results since I knew I wouldn't be able to tend to my fungi during the holiday season because I'm always super busy this time of year.

Anyway, I picked the first flush and rip the substrate up by twisting and pulling and doing an overall shitty job in my rush to get things done. Trich took hold on some ripped up areas within 2 days. The second flush started popping up at the same time.

I'm thinking the contam urged the tub to fruit ASAP as a last chance to spread the love another generation. I fruited the tub in my garage and the flush was pretty weak. Weak enough that I ate 8 grams and had a level 2 trip. I'm used to 3-5 gram level 3-4 trips.

So I surmise that a flush from a "last ditch effort" may in fact put propagation to the forefront and place secondary processes to the back of the line. It's kinda hard to prove because even from an isolate, flushes can differ in potency depending on available nutes, water, environment, etc.

Now that I've expressed that theory it makes even more sense that longer consolidation can place secondary processes to the forefront and place propagation further back in the line.

We're still in the theory stage, but I believe PrimalSoup is on to something here.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Wing] * 1
    #15470336 - 12/05/11 04:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

:eek: Winged_1 Plzz tell me no squirrels were harmed in the making of that sig...

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Wing] * 1
    #15470788 - 12/05/11 06:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The two tubs that actually gave decent yields had the least contam. The very worst contam was trich, and it went through the whole cake. I only got 30g fresh from 5 quarts, but the interesting thing is that the mushrooms started to release their spores about 1 week before the trich. After the first couple mushroom released their spores, the rest followed suit. I believe RogerRabbit said that full colonization is the number 1 pinning trigger (not condition), and that a heavy contam will trigger this. I ate 150g fresh, but it felt like maybe 30-40g from an average flush.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15564384 - 12/23/11 09:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Just wanted to pop in and say that I've been following this thread without so much as a peep so far, so I figured it was time to chime in.

After reading this thread and the multiple threads linked to from it going over the same hypothesis, I figured I'd give it a try.

I let 12 half pint BRF/verm/gypsum/coffee water/ cakes consolidate for 3 full weeks on the nose & they were just dunked for 24 (closer to 25 actually) hours and placed into their SGFC yesterday evening.  I'll report back on my findings.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: sgfcchamber] * 1
    #15564650 - 12/23/11 10:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Very interested, keeping any eye on this and going to start some tests.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Dwight_K_Schrute] * 1
    #15565112 - 12/24/11 12:25 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

My 3 favs [pe uncut, ape, treasure coast] Always take longer to fruit than the other ones i tried. They are also consistently more potent, 0.6-1.0 doses are the sweet spot for me.

Could temperatures potentially have a similar effect? Wouldn't the fruits mature slower in the mid/upper 60's than they would in the mid/upper 70's during light hours?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Hydra45] * 1
    #15606237 - 01/02/12 04:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

i have had mutant PE blobs that grow super slow and keep on growing past the first flush and on into the end of the second flush. and when i harvest them a gram dry sends you off on a journey.  a long journey.  i def agree that the longer fruits take to mature the more potent they are.    that why i think wood lovers are so potent. their myc. has to metabolize the sub longer to produce fruits.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: MycoNewb] * 1
    #15606450 - 01/02/12 04:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I've had a mutant Ps Cyan strain (from heat shock) that I grew for quite a few years - it fruited on grain quite well at normal (cube type) temps without needing cold for pinning.  It was several times stronger than cubensis consistently, but it grew and fruited at about the same rate...

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: MycoNewb] * 1
    #15612931 - 01/03/12 10:42 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

My P.E. blobs tend to be more potent then the second flush mushrooms.
The experience last longer for my friends and I anyway.
Its pretty consistent, 1.5 of the blobs will last about 8 hours
Where 1.5 of the second flush mushrooms will last maybe 5 or 6 hours.
I have a tub of P.E. going right now that consolidated longer then usual.
My tubs usually reached 100% in 10 or 11 days and start fruiting by day 14.
I let my tubs fruit on their own.
This time around the mycelium ripped through the substrate and finished colonizing at about day 8.
It started fruiting at around day 14,so it sat around about 6 days instead of the normal 3 or 4 days.


--------------------
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: amungus] * 1
    #15613382 - 01/04/12 12:38 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Has anyone ever tried to prevent a fully colonized bit of substrate from pinning to achieve longer consolidation? It seems to be if you experience preemptive pinning then lowering the temperature and increasing CO2 would prevent it (next time that is).

This would of course only be necessary for species or strains that pin aggressively. Might be interesting to try.


--------------------
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: San] * 1
    #15615310 - 01/04/12 02:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I just leave it in GE. :thumbup:  It may want to pin, and it may put out a few snakey pins, but without FAE it can't support pinning.

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15639119 - 01/09/12 09:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What does GE stand for?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: muh] * 1
    #15639400 - 01/09/12 11:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

GE= Gas Exchange


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: wildernessjunkie] * 1
    #15639589 - 01/09/12 11:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Could this be related to the problem of 'bunk' B+ batches?

The mycelium tears through the substrate, eager grower plunks it right into the FC, and it has no time to make the magic happen?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Me_Roy] * 1
    #15639628 - 01/09/12 12:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Could this be related to the problem of 'bunk' B+ batches?

The mycelium tears through the substrate, eager grower plunks it right into the FC, and it has no time to make the magic happen?




This has been my suspicion for quite some time. Though I dont know if its founded yet.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: wildernessjunkie] * 2
    #15639641 - 01/09/12 12:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm...  Since I've usually selected (on agar) for fast rhyzomorphic mycelium - with consistent good results - I'm not really seeing that (as an explanation for high/low/no potency).  But it could be. 

B+ (or any of a couple other well known fast colonizing strains I suppose) could be on the fast side of the equation (if there is one).  Impatient growers would select it because it grows fast and they would try to minimize the time to fruiting, yeah.  Disreputable spore sources have been know to ship a single strain no matter what people ordered.  And if they want to maximize their profit with quick turnaround, well, there ya go.

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15646940 - 01/10/12 07:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: jwalt420] * 1
    #15653013 - 01/11/12 11:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Hey, that's new to me - a good read with a number of relevant posts as well as the usual noise.  Note that "extraction methods" are IME a nonissue if you're using an acidic tea preparation method - I've posted amply about this so I won't repeat it here except to cite Gold's work on quantifying alkaloid content :  www.lycaeum.org/leda/docs/16311.shtml?ID=16311 ; but that keeps timing out...

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Edited by PrimalSoup (01/16/12 01:48 PM)


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15673704 - 01/16/12 01:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
... I won't repeat it here except to cite Gold's work on quantifying alkaloid content.

:peace:PS




Is that link not working for anyone else? it seems to be looping back to the top of this thread


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: shubrick] * 1
    #15674670 - 01/16/12 05:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

^Yup.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: shubrick] * 1
    #15675097 - 01/16/12 07:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I changed it in the post but the connection just times out.  :shrug:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #15683859 - 01/18/12 02:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a working copy of that paper:  The Mushroom Entheogen - The Measure of the Mushroom - C.B. Gold

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16040969 - 04/03/12 10:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

This thread has been very helpful! I will now let my jars consolidate for a few weeks to increase my yield and potency.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: junders] * 1
    #16064940 - 04/09/12 11:35 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

This is very interesting. When I started 'growing shrooms' was when I had bought a grow kit of Mexicans in Little Amsterdam shop in Camden Town, London (anyone been there? like, fridges filled with shrooms not coca cola, was awesome).

that was in 2005.
In any event I brought the growkit on the airplane with me
and spawned to donkey poo (field dried) and pine needles (dry old ones), sure i didnt know what I was doing back then, and didn't know about shroomery...

anyways it grew quite slow in fact it took about 3 months if not more for the one tray to grow.

I have to say that I myself had one of the most scary trips on that shit, it was potent as fuck, another person also had a hellish experience like they where too potent, apparently he had gone sitting in a restaurant toilet because he couldn't handle his trip at all...
no wait there were 3 other people who had mindfuckingly intense trips from those. another guy ate some shrooms and apparently nothing happened to him, I was surprised because these where so potent.
In retrospect I'm concerned they may have been contaminated with stachybotrys or something they where so mindfucking...


anyways. that I found very odd (the consequent potency in later trips from that growkit) because it had been a weak mexican strain and anyone who ever bought shrooms coming from netherlands know that their mexicans' trip are lame ass (unless u eat 50 grams + fresh lol) compared to the hawaiians or thai...

so yes, I think that might be very possible although I also had less potent ones but it was from another tray i think  perhaps a month or so prior, I don't exactly recall. but yes I think that may be possible...

I wouldn't go about testing this, however... I don't want to get my butt kicked by shrooms again it was a horrible experience.


--------------------
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Biffzilla] * 1
    #16065335 - 04/09/12 01:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

3 months to grow - yeah, that would fit. :thumbup:

But what I'm testing isn't that so much as "takes a week to 10 days to spawn the container, then set it aside for a month or two". 

Potency in itself isn't bad.  :awesomenod:  But some strains (of cubes) and some species (of others) manufacture extra amounts of other stuff, IME, and the "other stuff" plays a role in how the trip unfolds.  Never mind if you get some sort of poisonous contam in there, that skews things.

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16169555 - 05/02/12 03:49 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i will be doing an experiment to contribute to this thread/community


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: punkrocker292004] * 1
    #16171015 - 05/02/12 12:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah! :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16185624 - 05/05/12 11:07 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

BUMP this, because I just can't get enough on this topic.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: OH1Ogrown] * 1
    #16187793 - 05/05/12 08:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry for skipping a bit, but I have noticed that the longer that I keep grain in a jar, the longer it will take to fruit as well. I do typically have more prolific fruits on the older jars too. Is this typical?


--------------------


Omg lookit this


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Hippie-Trippy] * 1
    #16190209 - 05/06/12 12:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

this is VERY interesting topic


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Hippie-Trippy] * 1
    #16190549 - 05/06/12 02:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry for skipping a bit, but I have noticed that the longer that I keep grain in a jar, the longer it will take to fruit as well. I do typically have more prolific fruits on the older jars too. Is this typical?




Yes, IME.  It has to do with extra consolidation of the nutes, sort of half of what this thread is about (the other half is potency :lol:).

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16190591 - 05/06/12 02:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome. I thought I was just a little nuts or something. My roommate has always tried telling me they are too dry when they are that old, but they would grow greater results IMO. Now that I think about it... I don't know why he ever said they were bad, Maybe it was because of the mycelial piss pockets. I will continue taking my time :thumbup:


--------------------


Omg lookit this


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Hippie-Trippy] * 1
    #16812969 - 09/08/12 06:44 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I stalled/ delayed a growbag with P.semperviva which was fully colonized in march in a dark places till July.

In july I cased this bag, there already were two matured malformed pins in it, which i removed.

The first flush came very quickly and I had a good harvest and got some nice prints.
Two weeks ago I made the first test by eating 5gramms dry of the first flush.
It were overwhealming! Very strong! Definitely a lot stronger than 5gramms of Pans,5gramm Galindoi-pins or 25gramm fresh galindoistones.
It was my first p.semperviva-Exp.. So I cannot match with nondelayed/ normal cultivated culture, yet.

But it may sustain the theory.


--------------------

And guess, Pf-tek was last week!


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Cubiac] * 2
    #16814725 - 09/09/12 12:27 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder who will finally bother to sequence the complete genome of psilocybe cubensis.

I'd like to see a strain of Saccharomyces cerevisae with the psilocybin synthesis pathway. :mushroom2:


--------------------


"Homo sum ; humani nihil a me alienum puto"


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Amphibolos] * 1
    #16824435 - 09/10/12 05:03 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I'd like to see a strain of Saccharomyces cerevisae with the psilocybin synthesis pathway. :mushroom2:





Do you know what that is exactly?  But I agree, once the ability to graft this into other species, perhaps families, exists all bets are off. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Cubiac] * 1
    #16824454 - 09/10/12 05:05 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cubiac said:
I stalled/ delayed a growbag with P.semperviva which was fully colonized in march in a dark places till July.

In july I cased this bag, there already were two matured malformed pins in it, which i removed.

The first flush came very quickly and I had a good harvest and got some nice prints.
Two weeks ago I made the first test by eating 5gramms dry of the first flush.
It were overwhealming! Very strong! Definitely a lot stronger than 5gramms of Pans,5gramm Galindoi-pins or 25gramm fresh galindoistones.
It was my first p.semperviva-Exp.. So I cannot match with nondelayed/ normal cultivated culture, yet.

But it may sustain the theory.




Sweet!  Thanks for trying this!  :mushroomgrow:

The ones I used originally also had thrown some small pins during the extended consolidation.

I'm looking to try this with PE soon - a strain of PEU that I wanted to use kept contaming out too soon to try it.

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16824512 - 09/10/12 05:15 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder if that's part of the correlation for why my PEs were so scary potent.
They took almost 3weeks to show pins and an usually long time to finish growth when they finally did.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Oeric McKenna] * 1
    #16825593 - 09/10/12 08:18 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

The slower the more potent, IME. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16830386 - 09/11/12 05:38 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:

Do you know what that is exactly?




What do you mean?


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Amphibolos] * 1
    #16831851 - 09/11/12 09:33 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

The genes that code for psilocybin manufacturing, is what I meant, what I thought you meant. :shrug:

Keeping in mind it could be in a epigenetic system and more subtle - which might be even more useful - a little work and you're growing pure DMT at 2% concentration by weight in common edibles, yummm!  :Tastesgoodman:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #16832247 - 09/11/12 10:37 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
The genes that code for psilocybin manufacturing, is what I meant, what I thought you meant. :shrug:

Keeping in mind it could be in a epigenetic system and more subtle - which might be even more useful - a little work and you're growing pure DMT at 2% concentration by weight in common edibles, yummm!  :Tastesgoodman:

:peace:PS



That discovery would be one of the more awesome things in my life if it happened.


--------------------
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keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #18775144 - 08/29/13 09:08 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Rezzin an older thread . .  But its an old idea thats been going around and around it seems! Got permission of sorts. With all the experimenting of sub mixes, fruiting chambers, mixing and matching Im not sure why this idea hasn't really been put to the test. It cant be tested with specifics but with enough people trying it and testing it some form of anecdotal evidence will have to surface. There was a thread linked above talking about the blind tests and how the possibility of knowing could effect the subjective experience. There has to be people on here who share to give reports besides people testing their own. Especially those who dont believe. It osnt like they aint growing. Just throw a tub in the closet and prove it all wrong! If I was experienced and had some clone or isolate Id give it a try but I have to get to mushrooms first!

I have zero experience to add just another brain pondering ideas and searching the net. I guess m two ideas are 1: left to digest the sub longer the mycelium will convert more materials into usable form and have them available for fruiting and making whatever it is they feel like making. 2: almost every living thing I know of needs to mature to provide the best offspring be it flowers fruit or humans. While they are not a plant or an animal, both focus on reproducing when flowering or pregnant. So does fungus. Its a different enviroment and different growth pattern. Once mycelium is placed in flower thats whats its doing. Im sure its still eating the sub but its also developing fruit bodies, amd fruit bodies produce spores, not digeste materials. A fruit tree needs a certain amount of time before it will fruit, and it produces more fruit of better quality with age. For humans theres different reports of babies born to teenage mothers have different "deficiencies" an scoring in the lower brackets of tests. Is it faulty logic to think letting mycelium"mature" in the sub wont give better reproduction? Building a more dense network of mycelium and nutrients to produce fruit bodies? Even if potency increases by very little I have to assume yeild will increase. With increased yeild alone youre getting more mushrooms for your work and money. Even better if they are more potent. I guess if it is proven true it will depend on how someone values time compared to yeild amd exactly what they want. Most weight in the shortest period of time. More potent fruits. . . . Would it be worth waiting 30-40% longer for 10% more yeild of mushrooms that are 40% more potent?


--------------------
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Smeagol] * 1
    #18775441 - 08/29/13 10:17 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for posting, everybody's welcome anytime. :thumbup:

The downside to doing this is that the consolidated sub has to SURVIVE the extended period. That's not guaranteed.

But re. your points (1) - agreed -  and (2) - fruiting was literally overnight. :thumbup:

This technique seems to have been independently discovered a number of times.  Why it hasn't been rigorously tested - well, you do the math.  Extended time required, and how to you get the baseline for the unextended fruits, for which all else should be the same?  They would have to match the first strain which was extended, so basically you'd have to take a refrigerated culture out of storage, reanimate it (not so hard) and grow it out under the same exact conditions as the first one had, but without the extra time.  Keep track of all the variables, and then double-blind test it (which isn't that easy).  Do this quite a few times if you really want a bioassay to be meaningful.  Here's a case where a mass spectrometry would come in handy. :shrug:

What this thread is more about is to just encourage people to do their own, uncontrolled tests, with the idea that they might want to incorporate extended consolidation into their usual tek.  I have some difficulty planning it that far in advance (I WANT CUBES AND I WANT THEM NOW!) but it's still in my mind, and I'm gonna try and test the PE strain I've been growing this way pretty soon - or more like several months down the road, even if I start now.

There's not really any more overall time involved in using it, but you do have to have more material for the subs that are sitting rather than fruiting, and you'd have to plan your grows months in advance...

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #18776312 - 08/30/13 07:25 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

To misquote Terence McKenna "If it happens to you, youre crazy. If it happens to 100 you're a cult. If it happens to10,000 its true." There has to be a way to manipulate potency. Not turn a cube into a pan cyan but something like a cube x 1.5. If it can work with a cube try a pan cyan.  like everything it wont be for everyone or every grow. But it would be nice to see a wider group testing the theory.

Cactus growers poke their babies saying it makes them more potent. Adding "sugar" to ferts helps mj growers by feeding the mychozzia and other stuff in the soil. Manipulating humans diets can enhance result be it weight loss or building muscle. Not something like steroids or feeding shrooms DMT but consolidation time, maybe varied daytime and night time temps.

Ive been known to have faulty logic at times but giving mycelium time to really dig into bulk sub seems like a good idea.

Damn prohibition makes real scientific studies almost impossible and results are almost always skewed or the test is flawed. Like mj kill braincell. The monkeys were straped into mask and basically suffocated with pot smoke.

Im not thinking making a mushie produce unnatural potency but finding ways to push it to the max.

Once I can grow dependably and have a dedicated fridge for cultures and stuff maybe Ill try the testing method from that linked thread. Randomize equal doses of a aged run and normal run (jar A and jar B) then have someone else randomly number them & put them in one jar for me to draw from. . .


--------------------
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Smeagol] * 1
    #18776553 - 08/30/13 09:01 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

My tub is colonizing now, gonna try the linger consolidation...  I usually just thro it into fruiting excited to see results!!!


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blueconfusion] * 1
    #18777200 - 08/30/13 12:43 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent.  Post back with any results. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19311957 - 12/22/13 01:38 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

well my adventure started with a clone grow from some ksss, i did about 10 qts of grain with a master jar but one jar had been a little bit behind(my last g2g so it didn't get as much) so i had used the others for a mono and left the one to colonize, unfortunately i had to go fishing(commercial) and didn't come back for a month and even then had to go right back out, fast foreward to over four months later and fishing was over and my jar had now been consolidating for over four months, there was alot of munched grain there and about a 1/4 inch gap between the sub and the glass from the consolidating but with nuthing to lose i just decided to break it up and and spawn it anyway, suprisingly enough i had no issues like most say you want it at it's colonizing stage and not consolidated but mine was done in under 10 days no problem at all and was nice healthy growth and pinned RIGHT at full colonization and i'm talking within 3 days, not only did it pin fast but i got awesome looking fruits from this with no casing layer(i find ksss to benifit from one i get no short fat fruits). so i dried them up and put them away like normal. and then comes last night, i had decided to get my holiday high on but didn't wanna get all fucked up, my average cube dose is 5 grams or more but being that i had shit to do today i decided to only do 3 grams.........i've never been that high on cubes before and i do alot of them, it felt like i had ate 3 grams of pans my head was vibrating and everything was pulsing for what seemed to be forever lol, my original thought was it was ksss related as i never actually endavoured on them and thought maybe thats y they call it a super strain but if that were the case everyone would be doing them i would think...right? whatever the case the 4 month consolidation never slowed down my cultivation and my fruits kicked the fucking shit out of me last night and i think i was all over the boards trying to find answers lol. just thought i'd share my experience here primal:headbang3:


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: cronicr] * 1
    #19313085 - 12/22/13 06:37 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

So have you experimented with it enough to find a "potency saturation point"--as in, at what point does it no longer benefit from continuing to consolidate? And do you let your jar of grain consolidate before spawning to bulk, or is it only that letting the tub consolidate before introducing it to fruiting conditions that makes a difference?


--------------------
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: BittrBuffalo] * 1
    #19313124 - 12/22/13 06:43 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BittrBuffalo said:
as in, at what point does it no longer benefit from continuing to consolidate?




well the mushrooms will start growing regardless of how hard you try and keep it consolidating

cubensis grow like wildfire


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19313337 - 12/22/13 07:25 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

So long as you keep it strictly GE (and I mean STRICTLY) though it may throw out a few minisnake pins it won't go into fruiting - because it can't.  This is when they're in trays, BTW.  In jars with filters I've run myc for months on end as well, but the amazing potency boosts I've only seen with the tray approach (so far).

But to answer the question, no I don't know if there's a point of max returns beyond which it doesn't improve.  That could be a really long term experiment but I'm up for it.  We can only try and see. :mushroom2:

Cronicr :thumbup: that was awesome.  Good one!

:peace:PS


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19486028 - 01/28/14 12:30 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry have not posted in awhile but reading this thread makes me wonder if there is any relation to this and the fact that pins are stronger by weight than adult mush. If anyone has ever grown invitro jars they can back this up.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: hill76] * 1
    #19486534 - 01/28/14 02:42 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Pins do tend to have more actives by % but if you harvest all the pins on a grow vs letting them develop the overall is less.  So I'm not seeing a connection... :shrug:

:peace:PS


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 2
    #19495848 - 01/30/14 10:45 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

The connection is it's a shit-ton less to eat.  Uncooked mushrooms cause upset stomach, which ruins more trips than anything else. Any time we can get more alkaloids while eating less non-digestible material, it's a positive.
RR


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #19496546 - 01/30/14 01:55 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I guess I didn't mention that my motivation for improving potency is to reduce the amount required when tripping repeatedly, and this is using tea exclusively.  I did mention tea though:

Quote:

... Note that "extraction methods" are IME a nonissue if you're using an acidic tea preparation method - I've posted amply about this so I won't repeat it here except to cite Gold's work on quantifying alkaloid content




:peace:PS


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19498724 - 01/30/14 09:05 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I was gonna say that making a tea is the best way to consume the active alkaloids without any of the non-digestible matertial, but it looks like PS already covered that. :wink:


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: ghiajake] * 1
    #19561089 - 02/13/14 11:18 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

I'll be able to contribute my observations in a few weeks. I have enough sub colonizing atm that will fill my greenhouse twice and is nearly fully colonized. I'll fruit the 1st half as soon as it's ready and the second half will wait until two or three flushes of the 1st half. I would have to guess it will have colonized a month over.

Unfortunately these were from spores but the next run will be of cloned fruit from the best of this round and I'll do it again. It's just unfortunate I don't have any way to measure a defined value.

I'd love to see more objective information make its way to this thread.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: katore] * 1
    #19561547 - 02/13/14 01:07 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

i got a jar of grain 4 weeks into consolidation, gonna case it this week and see what it brings


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 2
    #19561718 - 02/13/14 01:49 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

:creepylurker:

Uhm, good. :cool:

I'm about to start a long term PE experiment, both isolating for potency and then doing longer consolidation. 

Want to see if I get PE as much stronger than regular PE as regular PE is stronger than regular cubes. :alientransform:

:peace:PS


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19561778 - 02/13/14 02:06 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
:creepylurker:

Uhm, good. :cool:

I'm about to start a long term PE experiment, both isolating for potency and then doing longer consolidation. 

Want to see if I get PE as much stronger than regular PE as regular PE is stronger than regular cubes. :alientransform:

:peace:PS



That "creepy Lurker" gif is awesome! It made me lol.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: katore] * 1
    #19637723 - 03/02/14 12:52 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

I've got some SLOWWWW growing myc in my sgfc right now, but it might just be slow because my room is around 55 degrees


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19653694 - 03/05/14 08:40 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

hmmm wish it was easier to test actual levels and get real data this s interesting


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: hmmm] * 1
    #23802095 - 11/04/16 10:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder if this is the key to fruiting species that are difficult to fruit indoors/fruit poorly indoors! Or species that we currently think are impossible to fruit indoors/cultivate.

Hopefully nobody minds the thread revive, but I thought this was worth the post. Plus this idea needs spreading, I had never heard of it.

Seems we should edit all the major teks and add this information in, or something. I mean its RR certified ffs.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #23802140 - 11/04/16 11:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It provides food for thought that's sure.  Pretty soon I hope to get back to this topic, might make a good "to do" for next summer's crops if I start about...now...  :lol:

Thanks for the bump!


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23802168 - 11/04/16 11:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm imagining people really running with this method and just stockpiling piles of cololonized subs.

Just wonder if some oddball species like liberty caps or something would really shine with this technique. maybe psilo cyans? Those are probably all about the temps though..


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Smeagol] * 1
    #23803387 - 11/05/16 01:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Smeagol said:
There has to be a way to manipulate potency. Not turn a cube into a pan cyan but something like a cube x 1.5.



Mycofile talked of dramatic increases, I think he said 3-5 times as strong are regular cubes. He has lots of posts about it, his would be colonising for months.


Quote:

mycofile said:Please give me a potency report after they are grown.  One month over-incubation is the minimum I have seen a potency increase with, and I'm interested in hearing even more validation of the idea (subjective of course).  Good luck. 

Oh, you may want to be careful with the first few doses, particularly if you are sharing.  I had several friends (very experienced psychonauts) wig out a little, even on much less than their usual doses.  I'd start with a gram and then work your way up.  Cubies from over-incubated spawn are just as if not more potent than Pan. cyans in my (sometimes) humble experience.






I have found them stronger too as did friends. I gave a guy 3 shrooms and had told him to take one, he went and took them all without me knowing, this would have been about 1.3g and he is now sworn off them as they were so strong. I did not expect him to remember the weight but he recalled I had given him 1g of cubes a good few years ago and so had figured these would be the same. I had been giving most people 0.5g for a mild dose, one guy complained 0.5g was way too strong for him, none of these people would be taking high doses though.

I have wondered if there maybe a way to speed up whatever process is happening. I am not sure if I ever read of people repeatedly shaking jars after recovery, if this happened over and over it could result in the same amount of growth going on in a few weeks as would in months of sitting there slowly using up the grains. But maybe sitting undisturbed is essential to the process, in which case you might be better off using lots of LC at the start so you never have to shake your jars at all after the inital shake when LC is added.

I think I might have asked mycofile about doing G2G with overincubated jars, i.e. would the freshly colonised G2G jars be stronger too.

I have been thinking about how to measure or gauge the potency. I think microdosing could be the most sensible way to do it. With microdosing you do not want to feel any effects at all, if you do then it was simply not a microdose. People could have an isolate and grow one regularly and overincubate a second identical jar and grow out the same way. You slowly increase your microdose until you do feel an effect, this allows lots of testing to be done in short times, and most seem to report little tolerance build up. Even if you do build up a tolerance the regularity of the doses mean you can very easily compare 2 different grows, take 0.2g of one and same of the other a few days later. I have felt definite effects from 0.2g of overincubated grows.


Edited by blackout (11/05/16 01:34 PM)


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23803430 - 11/05/16 01:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:takingnotes: I've got some old ass mexicana jars that didn't do well. Sounds like the perfect use for them.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23803800 - 11/05/16 04:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
I have wondered if there maybe a way to speed up whatever process is happening. I am not sure if I ever read of people repeatedly shaking jars after recovery, if this happened over and over it could result in the same amount of growth going on in a few weeks as would in months of sitting there slowly using up the grains. But maybe sitting undisturbed is essential to the process, in which case you might be better off using lots of LC at the start so you never have to shake your jars at all after the inital shake when LC is added.




My working theory is that it's metabolic metabolism, as the subs are well digested.  Whatever improves the ability of the myc to consolidate and extract enough energy to encourage it to manufacture alkaloid precursors would do that trick.  Time is cheap if you plan ahead of course.

I've tried enough sub extracts (uniformly with regret) to suspect what's getting produced is precursors.  The time to pinning and fruiting is almost immediate once you place them into fruiting.  Note though that these are all thoroughly colonized minitubs in what I've done, extending consolidation in jars, shaking or not, is something that I've done accidentally quite a few times (and or through laziness) but that doesn't have the same effect IME and opens it up to contamination.  Undisturbed tubs ready to fruit were the ticked here.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23805486 - 11/06/16 06:48 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Note though that these are all thoroughly colonized minitubs in what I've done, extending consolidation in jars, shaking or not, is something that I've done accidentally quite a few times (and or through laziness) but that doesn't have the same effect IME and opens it up to contamination.  Undisturbed tubs ready to fruit were the ticked here.



Right, I was having a total brainfart and though you were "overconsolidating" jars before spawning. You say leaving it in jars opens it up to contams, are you saying your jars contam before opening? or that the contams come at spawning time, perhaps due to lower speed of colonisation.

The comments I was making about my own experience of increased potency was jars delayed before spawning. Mycofile spoke of leaving them several months, this is probably not going to work out well if you are trying to leave bulk trays. I wonder if there is a benefit to a mix of both, leaving the jars for 5 months, then in the tub for 1 month. This could result in more potency than if they were in the jar for 6months, but the same time overall.

Even if you could leave tubs a long time many would want to be using their tubs but are more likely to have spare jars they can leave a while.

Few more quotes

Quote:

mycofile said:
Yeah, I meant spawn.  Seems the over-incubated cultures really benefits from some nutritional rejuvenation, which it won't get unless used as spawn.




note the comments on metabolites, the user he is talking about is Baby_Hitler who also grew out other species myc to eat.
Quote:

mycofile said:
I am, and have been of the opinion that over-incubated spawn is the one thing that can be done by casual home cultivators to increase fruit potency.  I've discussed it here and there, but it's not a crusade of mine because I've been attacked for it. 

I don't really care though, I know that potency is subjective, but I also know that I don't lose my shit from a single bite of stem.  Repeatedly.  And only on fruits that were spawned with over-incubated spawn.

The first person I remember discussing it with was, ummm, damn, uhhh, the guy with hitler in the hoopty in his avatar?  I think that was it, anyway, first time I read about it, some dood was talking about eating months old cakes.  I disregarded it, because eating cakes is gross.  But, after making my "discovery", I looked back and saw that it's not unusual at all for people to report increased potency in a number of situations from older cultures.

My personal method is to use WBS bags, hang the corner off a shelf to collect the piss, and let it sit in the dark for 1-3 months, then use it as spawn at a high spawn rate (25-50%).  Keep these shrooms in house until you determine potency, unless you want friends ending up in the ER with your shrooms....




Quote:

mycofile said:
OK, my theory on the mechanism at play:

Ecologically speaking, A cubensis cultures primary objective is to reproduce.  To reproduce, it must capture it's substrate first.  Production of psilocybin/psilocin is not something that is understood, but it is known that it is not a primary objective of a cube culture.  So, when you start your spawn, the cultures objectives, in order are to 1.  Fully colonize the substrate  2.  Reproduce as soon as possible  3.  Produce psilocybin/psilocin.

By allowing the culture to achieve colonization of the substrate, but preventing it from fruiting, you are allowing the culture plenty of time to do other things that it is good at, just not as important, biologically speaking, as reproduction.  Namely, producing active goodies.

Now, I may not be right with this theory.  Another possibility is just that older cultures have accumulated more secondary metabolites of various types, not just psilocybin and psilocin.  These chemicals are then used by the culture as precursers to elevate the potency of the fruits.  Kind of like adding tryptamine to the substrate, except the increased potency seems to be as much psilocybin as 'cin with over-incubated spawn.  This could be because whatever the precursers are, they bypass the downregulation of psilocybin, or it could be that some yet unidentified alkaloid is present in the over-incubated spawn.

Regardless, it works.  I almost hate talking about it because it's always controversial.  Hell I'd bash it if I hadn't discovered it myself on accident.  So, try it if you like. 

I've tripped as hard as I can handle with people around on a 1.5" piece of stem before.

Regardless, there is definitely some kind of difference between fresh spawn and over-incubated spawn.  This spawn was used a little over 1 month beyond full colonization, incubating at 75-ish degrees:

does it look a little different than fresh spawn?




Edited by blackout (11/06/16 07:07 AM)


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23807302 - 11/06/16 04:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Even if you could leave tubs a long time many would want to be using their tubs but are more likely to have spare jars they can leave a while.








Maybe, but the tubs have a lot more volume and don't have to be handled at all for fruiting, I think that's important to how it works.  Months old spawn in a jar does not want to go anywhere.  :lol:

If I leave jars for months they are more likely to contam IF I try to case them out or anything, that was all I meant.  No, they don't contam on their own, not any more than usual.  Note that a fully colonized sub is pretty resistant to contamination...

OK, so here's the deal - say you leave the tubs 6 weeks and you get twice the potency (just a guess).  If you were running spawning normally you'd have to produce twice as much for the same alkaloids, so two cycles.  As I recall (it's been a while now) it takes 2-3 weeks or something like that to go from spawning to fruiting, and 5-10 days to colonize jars fully, and then the fruiting cycle (if you let it go on - I do) is like once a week-10 days (depends on strain).  When you let the tubs sit for 6 weeks (or whatever I did before) they literally pin overnight once you place them into fruiting, so that saves some time.  Seems like the output of alkaloids is about the same but the difference is the tubs would get cycled through twice - which means (if the tubs are successful at the same rate) you get the same sort of production, into less mass of fruit bodies, with half the sub but about the same time.

Also, well, I can make and stack a whole bunch of minitubs and they aren't picky about timing really, so whenever the current fruiting collection gets finished the new ones can be rotated in - and they fruit right off the bat, they don't sit there taking up space before fruiting.

Not saying any of this is guaranteed of course but that's how it seemed to me at the time.  :thumbup:

Possibly it doesn't matter whether it's spawn or sub for the potency increase.  If I was gonna overincubate spawn though I'd do it in bags as digging out long-term jars to spawn is a pain, and they typically won't shake anymore.  :shrug:

And the other thing I gotta wonder at this point - is the spawn eventually making alkaloids before fruiting?  I haven't tested that, and I like fruits better, but hey, maybe you could save a step if they didn't actually need to fruit.

Interesting theory in that last quote from mycofile.


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Edited by PrimalSoup (11/07/16 09:13 PM)


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23808759 - 11/07/16 07:09 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I was reading about claviceps alkaloid production (ergot) and it does not produce a significant amount of alkaloids until its carbon source is almost out and it also accumulates precursors in its mycilial network that is later turned into alkaloids. Maybe it's similar in mushrooms and that is why consolidation helps.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23809292 - 11/07/16 10:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That's interesting.  :thumbup:


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23810185 - 11/07/16 04:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So here's something I've been thinking about this, I do know that some slower fruiters are more potent, and it could be from longer colonization time.

However, one thing you'll see often is people claiming that although bacteria reduced their total crops, it made them much more potent. I wonder if the longer consolidation time allows the bacteria we've pushed back with the PC to come back. But, because the mycelium is fairly well established, it doesn't prevent the culture from fruiting. Perhaps it's actually the bacterial reaction and not the consolidation time making it more potent.

Not an argument, just an idea that's kinda been kicked around in my head for some time.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23810213 - 11/07/16 04:44 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

and an interesting one at that :thumbup:


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #23810268 - 11/07/16 05:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I wouldn't think that's the case. It's still debated whether bacteria even survive, but on agar bacteria does not seem to attack or harm the mycilium in any way, it just kind of claims its own turf and steals potential real estate. So if you mycilium goes to full colonization there wouldn't be anywhere for the bacteria to grow.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23810285 - 11/07/16 05:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

But when you PC your grains, you're only pushing bacteria back a bit. We don't have the capacity to truly sterilize grains in most home settings. We colonize our spawn in a window. After which time, the bacteria can and will come back.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23810412 - 11/07/16 05:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That's not a fact though, it's a highly debated theory, but either way it doesn't matter if they are gone completely or simply stalled if when they are again viable there are no nutrients left for them to grow on.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23810538 - 11/07/16 06:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

PC some jars and leave them un-inoculated, I'm pretty sure they will contam in about a month, no?


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23810585 - 11/07/16 06:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
That's not a fact though, it's a highly debated theory, but either way it doesn't matter if they are gone completely or simply stalled if when they are again viable there are no nutrients left for them to grow on.




A highly debated theory?
I'll let Mad Season do the talking on that, Mr. Krypto:

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I'm just adding my experience with sterilization. I've used both PC and a lab autoclave, and I've let jars sit for weeks before inoculation with both methods and no contaminants. I have personally seen no evidence that my sterilization procedure results in anything other than sterile grains. Heck, I've gone over sterilization procedures used in the microbiology labs on campus (for both liquid and dry media), and mine are more rigorous.

You mention that contamination may not germinate until some conditions are met, but these conditions are ideal for mycelium growth. I guess, sure, there may be some (for example) methanogen bacterial endospores sitting around waiting for some methane to appear, but since that doesn't really apply at all, who cares?

It's hard to convince me that I am wrong, when all the available evidence points to me being right. As soon as it fails, and the failure isn't a result of improper procedure, I'll change my tune. Scientific method and all. This has yet to happen over the last year and a half.



Microbiology labs aren't holding onto media for long periods of time. Look at grain spawn suppliers if you want to see what sterilization looks like with grains. A double cycle of 4+ hours at over 60 psi is common to actually achieve sterile grains that can be shipped and stored for a long time, and even then there's still the odd CFU that gets through. This has been extensively researched on this site and grain suppliers for YEARS. Just do some searching. The way we use grains is always a race against the CFUs. Increasing PC times and pressure will lower the amount that gets through, but if there are endospores in the beginning, some will undoubtedly get through with our cycles.

Quote:

Shadow of magus said:
I know what the problem was also...

I used Panaleous Cay, and they love cow dung and casing.

Just started new batches with golden teachers purple Mystics and AA Albinos, keeping my fingers crossed



Yeah the CLEAN grain jars of pan cyan like this:



Get spawned to manure and a casing. They grow just fine in grains so that wasn't the problem.





Edited by dankington (11/07/16 08:51 PM)


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23811099 - 11/07/16 09:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dankington said:
So here's something I've been thinking about this, I do know that some slower fruiters are more potent, and it could be from longer colonization time.

However, one thing you'll see often is people claiming that although bacteria reduced their total crops, it made them much more potent. I wonder if the longer consolidation time allows the bacteria we've pushed back with the PC to come back. But, because the mycelium is fairly well established, it doesn't prevent the culture from fruiting. Perhaps it's actually the bacterial reaction and not the consolidation time making it more potent.

Not an argument, just an idea that's kinda been kicked around in my head for some time.




It wasn't happening in my case that I could tell - little variation between tubs, and if they'd contaminated it would have shown in vigor and flushes, I'd think, which I don't recall happening.  Have to replicate all of this pretty soon.  :lol:


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23811118 - 11/07/16 09:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dankington said:
So here's something I've been thinking about this, I do know that some slower fruiters are more potent, and it could be from longer colonization time.

However, one thing you'll see often is people claiming that although bacteria reduced their total crops, it made them much more potent. I wonder if the longer consolidation time allows the bacteria we've pushed back with the PC to come back. But, because the mycelium is fairly well established, it doesn't prevent the culture from fruiting. Perhaps it's actually the bacterial reaction and not the consolidation time making it more potent.

Not an argument, just an idea that's kinda been kicked around in my head for some time.




Not that I could see in what I grew.  But yeah, other comments, I've sterilized jars and left them far too long unused - done right they still don't contam, done wrong they will.  It just depends on technique IME.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23811820 - 11/08/16 06:56 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I will actually be doing this soon as I made some spawn bags a few weeks back and did not inoculate them after finding out my LC had contaminated. So far the bags looks exactly as they did on day 1. We'll see.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23812087 - 11/08/16 08:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:shrug: well, it's hard to "see" bacteria on grains until you see how the mycelium reacts. "looks the same" doesn't mean it's still sterile. I guess we will see.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23812778 - 11/08/16 01:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Very true. It will be at least a couple of weeks before I inoculate them and then 2-4 after that until they are fully colonized, but if I remember I'll post back here how it turns out. By the time they're inoculated they'll have been sitting for probably 6 weeks or so, I would assume if they're still good at 6 weeks they'll be good at 6 months, 6 years, etc.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23813047 - 11/08/16 02:53 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: I've poured agar plates, put them in rubbermaid containers, and pulled them out 10 years later, still perfectly pristine.  Sterile is forever.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23813060 - 11/08/16 02:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sterile is forever, but it's more a question whether you can sterilize grains fully. I think you can, but no one has, very surprisingly, done any sort of tests. I've seen this debated time and time again in my decade on this forum and no conclusive results, just theory, discussion, etc. A few anecdotes here and there saying they've left things for awhile and they colonized, which I tend to believe, but... just nothing conclusive.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23813067 - 11/08/16 02:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

with agar. However, if you read what I said, it's that you cannot say the same for grains. The steps required to "sterilize grains forever" are far outside my capacity at least. I mean, perhaps you have a PC that can go up to 60psi?

When we say we sterilize our grains, we're being a bit liberal with the vernacular. I guarantee you your grains aren't sterile.

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Microbiology labs aren't holding onto media for long periods of time. Look at grain spawn suppliers if you want to see what sterilization looks like with grains. A double cycle of 4+ hours at over 60 psi is common to actually achieve sterile grains that can be shipped and stored for a long time, and even then there's still the odd CFU that gets through. This has been extensively researched on this site and grain suppliers for YEARS. Just do some searching. The way we use grains is always a race against the CFUs. Increasing PC times and pressure will lower the amount that gets through, but if there are endospores in the beginning, some will undoubtedly get through with our cycles.





It's not that hard to understand that it's different with agar. It's apples and oranges. I have agar plates unused and sterile too. But it's just not the same thing at all.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23813227 - 11/08/16 03:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Plates and grains aren't the same, no, it's a lot harder to sterilize grains completely.  But I've done some experiments with grains where I've sealed the containers (one was with the PP containers a couple years back) and left them...for months...and more months.  Usually with jars I've got filter discs so they tend to dry out eventually - or contam through the filter, more usual.  :shrug:

Anyway, this is all irrelevant to the tub consolidation thread as that's done with colonized sub - sub that was pasteurized not sterilized - and once they reach full colonization they are very resistant to contamination so long as they're just left to sit undisturbed.

So in the end it doesn't really matter, unless what you're gonna do is just colonize grain and let that sit.  I never found any material benefit from that route.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23813234 - 11/08/16 04:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Well it pertained to my theory that bacteria comes back and could affect potency, which pertains to your theory about the colonization. Anyways, I await results :popcorn:

Plus, anyone that's done this for a while has noticed that over colonized spawn jars look identical to bacterial jars.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23814098 - 11/08/16 08:54 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Are you saying that contamination could drive potency increases?  I've always seen the opposite - challenged cultures perform poorly in yield, vigor, and potency.  So I'm interested in anything that says otherwise.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23814113 - 11/08/16 08:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Basically. I feel there's a type of bell-curve type of return. I don't have the funding or space to do real research, but yes. Basically, I feel a certain amount of bacteria can actually increase potency; in colonized spawn this could be the case. The spawn is already strongly enough colonized to fruit anyways, and fighting the bacteria could fight potency. Just part of what I've been thinking. I didn't mean to be insulting or over assertive in my hypothesis, so you know. Just trying to be clear.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23814165 - 11/08/16 09:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

No offense taken, whatever works is what I want to see happen.  :mushroomgrow:

But I still don't see the mechanism, since it doesn't fit with any of my experience.  I mean, a sub that contams will try to put out fruits before it succumbs, that much is pretty well known.  But as to potency improving?  Not seeing it - that comes from better utilization of the sub by healthy spawn, IME. 

OTOH there COULD be a bacteria that one could perhaps select for, and if that was so it simplifies all of this a great deal. :raisemyglass:


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Edited by PrimalSoup (11/08/16 09:27 PM)


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23816039 - 11/09/16 12:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dankington said:
But when you PC your grains, you're only pushing bacteria back a bit. We don't have the capacity to truly sterilize grains in most home settings. We colonize our spawn in a window. After which time, the bacteria can and will come back.



:waitwhatthehell: I disagree, I have no doubt I sterilize fully hydrated grain in my PC.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Shu] * 1
    #23816147 - 11/09/16 12:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Actually you don't, without a doubt, proper sterilization is more like 24h at 121c,
unless your pc go way higher in pressure that 15 psi, you're note completely sterilizing stuff.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Chk] * 1
    #23816368 - 11/09/16 02:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Prep makes a difference there IME.  I do a 24 hr soak followed by drain and rinse, gets the endospores to germinate and then the heat kills them.  RR's talked about this kind of process often enough.  I did some experiments to reduce contam in jars and this was one of the key steps.  PCd 1 hr at 15psi after that...


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 2
    #23817575 - 11/09/16 08:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #23817782 - 11/09/16 10:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

My soak time ends up being whatever's convenient, but usually is just overnight. There is no boiling involved, just start with hot tap water in the jars, add the grain, let sit on the counter.  But I'm a lazy bastard.  :laugh2:

I did some tests for the residual hydration after that duration so I could add enough water to the rinsed jars to bring them to 50% after the PC cycle, and it seems to work quite well.  Or let's say - for the benefit of argument - well enough to accomplish the goal's I'm trying to accomplish.

SpitballJedi says what I've thought for a long time:

Quote:

But, I don't think it matters if more endospores are being produced because they are hydrated and are easy to kill in the PC. My understanding, from The Shroomery, is the dry endospores are the ones that are hard to destroy in the PC.




:scaryshroom::thumbup:

A few minutes is a lifetime to a bacteria, but nutrient depletion is apparently the trigger for formation.  Endospores are like...bacteria seeds.

https://micro.cornell.edu/research/epulopiscium/bacterial-endospores

Quote:

Microorganisms sense and adapt to changes in their environment. When favored nutrients are exhausted, some bacteria may become motile to seek out nutrients, or they may produce enzymes to exploit alternative resources. One example of an extreme survival strategy employed by certain low G+C Gram-positive bacteria is the formation of endospores. This complex developmental process is often initiated in response to nutrient deprivation. It allows the bacterium to produce a dormant and highly resistant cell to preserve the cell's genetic material in times of extreme stress.

Endospores can survive environmental assaults that would normally kill the bacterium. These stresses include high temperature, high UV irradiation, desiccation, chemical damage and enzymatic destruction. The extraordinary resistance properties of endospores make them of particular importance because they are not readily killed by many antimicrobial treatments. A variety of different microorganisms form "spores" or "cysts", but the endospores of low G+C Gram-positive bacteria are by far the most resistant to harsh conditions.
...
The process of forming an endospore is complex. The model organism used to study endospore formation is Bacillus subtilis. Endospore development requires several hours to complete. Key morphological changes in the process have been used as markers to define stages of development. As a cell begins the process of forming an endospore, it divides asymmetrically (Stage II). This results in the creation of two compartments, the larger mother cell and the smaller forespore. These two cells have different developmental fates. Intercellular communication systems coordinate cell-specific gene expression through the sequential activation of specialized sigma factors in each of the cells. Next (Stage III), the peptidoglycan in the septum is degraded and the forespore is engulfed by the mother cell, forming a cell within a cell. The activities of the mother cell and forespore lead to the synthesis of the endospore-specific compounds, formation of the cortex and deposition of the coat (Stages IV+V). This is followed by the final dehydration and maturation of the endospore (Stages VI+VII). Finally, the mother cell is destroyed in a programmed cell death, and the endospore is released into the environment. The endospore will remain dormant until it senses the return of more favorable conditions. [A sigma factor is a small protein that directs RNA polymerase to specific cites on DNA to initiate gene expression.




But what this says is the dehydration occurs in the parent cell, which is doomed to die after it sucks the moisture out of the endospore to mature it, and then release it into the environment - WET OR NOT.  So yes, long soaking IF THE BACTERIA WERE NUTRIENT STARVED would create new endospores OR if the BACTERIA MADE ENDOSPORES HABITUALLY a small % of the time OR if the BACTERIA RESPOND TO POPULATION DENSITY by making new endospores.  So there ya go, two strikes against long duration soaking. :aliceshocker:

Well, gonna shorten my soak time to maybe just a few hours based on all that.  Good read. 

:goodday:


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23817839 - 11/09/16 10:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I never bought that theory, but I still soak my grains overnight, it's the easiest way to properly hydrate them for me. When you cook beans it's common to do the same thing, I've never been able to cook them w/o bursting or being underdone otherwise.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23817924 - 11/09/16 11:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:  I'll just do it the usual way - start the soak then test it for shorter times.  Easy to tell when they come out hydrated to spec (by weighing the jar before and after) and if that helps with contam control it's almost a no-brainer.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23850786 - 11/20/16 08:47 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I was just thinking about this as I'm on the hunt for a new strain/culture. I plan to test a bunch of different mushrooms for potency and make a clone, but at this point I'm starting from agar and just looking at growth characteristics.

This has me wondering if you have a culture that takes 20 days to grow/fruit (referencing my ass for that number) and another that takes 8 w/o knowing the potency differences you would go with the 8. Now factoring in the potency difference though your 20 day strain would have to be over twice as potent for it to be worthwhile as the former will still give you more total alkaloids, albeit you will spend more time prepping, use more space, etc. This may have been already mentioned in this thread, I can't remember now, but it was just something that came to mind and throwing it in here seemed relevant.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #24103096 - 02/19/17 03:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So have people messed with this much more? Mostly wondering if its best to consolidate bulk sub or grains. Probably bulk as it would avoid buildup of myc piss in jars and there's more sub to digest.


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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #24104656 - 02/20/17 08:12 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

With edibles, the consolidation happens at the spawn phase IME. Every time I'm a bit late moving blocks to the grow room, they pin super hard and put out more.

Lots of times they start to pin or fruit in the incubation room.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Crispykoot] * 1
    #24132170 - 03/02/17 08:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I can't be sure but from my experience I agree with Primal.  I liken it to foreplay...with more foreplay for longer times the orgasm is greater.  Not the most scientific explanation.  But something to do with staying in a state of potential energy (consolidation stage) longer may have some benefits.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #24132191 - 03/02/17 08:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, this gets it.  When I did this they were strictly in low air flow incubation containers and though they threw out a few baby-snake pins it was obvious those didn't go anywhere.  Like what you get sometimes on agar plates with limited air exchange.  Then when they were let out to pin it was like an explosion of growth.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #24132343 - 03/02/17 09:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

letting them get to be the point of being rearing to go may be beneficial... as long as they don't become spoiled in the process, or get blue balls :wink:.  Or maybe its a waste of time!  Either way the quickening of the explosion of growth is impressive, if not seemingly relativly on the high end of potency atleast, atleast when judged subjectively and considering its range on the spectrum for alks % for its species.

Almost like it since it has more time to eat or digest the substrate while in those conditions, that it makes more of the alkaloids or their aggregates then normal and becomes close to maxed out for the upcoming flush relative to the amount of fruits it can do in 1 flush and its general life span including future flushes if there are any.

like busting a nut after being abstinent for a long break - empties the old nut sack just right.



I'll have to look out for this in the future and with some jars I have germinating right now.  But the important variables are not all accounted for with this grow, so any results would have to be taken with a large grain of salt.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (03/02/17 09:35 PM)


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #24132379 - 03/02/17 09:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It WAS beneficial, it increased potency but didn't put any limits on them otherwise.  And they were just happy to sit there consolidating.  I'm eager to find out if this works for PE as well, already at a high level of potency just as they coom.

My current theory is that the active content of fruit production is sort of a side effect, and they do it if everything else is taken care of, so to speak.  That would both explain this result (sitting there making more active precursors) as well as poor potency in substandard fruits.  That's like too many experiments though, so I'm sticking with just taking the primo ones and trying to pump them up, since the only "cost" is just time.  The faster fruiting in the FC is also a bonus in terms of the bottleneck that my FC imposes on production, since it only holds about half a dozen minitubs.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #24132468 - 03/02/17 10:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I have some APE and PES Amaz going right now...just starting to get germ. growth as of 2-3 days ago.  I'll keep track of the time they stay in the jars, I was going to fruit them to a sgfc eventually. (verm/brf substrate).

hmmm. this sounds promising.  we'll see!


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #24132477 - 03/02/17 10:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Well as I've said I don't think it's the time in jars that matters, that is, if you're going to sub.  It's the time spent getting ready to fruit (in my example on bulk and cased) controlled by giving them only GE up to the point fruiting is initiated. 

But I'll listen to anybody who wants to experiment with any version of this idea.  :scaryshroom::thumbup:


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #24132484 - 03/02/17 10:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Oh sorry, I meant to imply that.  Yes that is the condition I keep them in unless something goes awry that calls for a change.


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26316919 - 11/12/19 11:25 PM (8 months, 23 days ago)

This is a fascinating topic, and one that's not well enough known.
I find it interesting, the discrepancy between those who only have success over-consolidating spawn and those who only have success over-consolidating tubs. It was mentioned a few times over the years of this thread to use a strain isolate to test both methods. Has anyone followed through with that?
I just started isolating a cube strain for an unrelated experiment series, I think when its ready I'll age a spawn jar for a month and age a colonized tub cake for a month to see which is stronger in the first flush.
One criticism of the tub over-consolidation is the grows occupying the tubs for so long. My idea is to get the substrate fully colonized and consolidated for a few days in a liner in a medium sized tub so it could be lifted out and slid into a plastic bag with a micropore covered hole. This could then just be kept on a shelf while the tub that was used as a mold could fruit another substrate cake.

I like to go deep, it'll be great if I can do that with less than 7 grams of cubes :wink:


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