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Outerbass
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Questions about the psychedelic experience
#27093138 - 12/16/20 09:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Serious question from a skeptic. This is also an abstract question, as I am not "on the fence" for taking psychedelics.
My introduction to mycology comes from being a gardener, fostering mycorhyzae is critical to growing food organically, or beyond organic as I call it.
When I began learning about this 3-4 years ago I was probably a mycophobe, I wasn't sure if the mushrooms in the store were poisonous etc, but have begun integrating them into my diet. I slowly learned about gourmet then medicinal mushrooms. I then began attending the local mycological meetings.
I was expecting to learn about mycorhizals at these meetings, it took me 2-3 sessions before I learned people were mostly there to learn about psychedelics lol.
I am straight edge, never had alcohol, drug of any kind, cigarette etc and have no plans to change. However mushrooms seemed different to me, because of the complex and biologically fundamental role fungus plays in the biosphere. It did not strike me as a random plant that is poisonous or narcotic.
Eventually online I ran into Stamets and McKenna and begun learning about psychedelic culture, and DMT. The claims were outrageous. McKenna et al portray DMT/psilocybin as the answer to all questions, which is a very high bar.
I have been pondering this for almost a year. My reservations are as follows. For those of us that are straight, substance users appear to be "stoners", that is a personality change happens that turns you into a version of Sean Penn in that 80's movie. That's reason enough for some of us to never do a substance. I do not want to be like that. Also, based on my observations with people I know who do substances, this change is permanent. So it would be a permanent scar if you will. I'm not saying I'm right these are my subconscious impressions.
However McKenna makes the distinction between psilocybin/DMT and say alcohol and cocaine, so I have to allow for that. But I'm not sure if that changes much.
In the last year or so I've discussed psychedelic mushrooms with many people in real life, and what they say is far less than what McKenna says. They just kind of like the trip and don't put much higher meaning on it.
So it's not something I would try just to try it, like skiing. There seems to be a point of no return. And I don't want to do that.
So I have been trying to evaluate the claims using other methods. I have strong beliefs about expanding the potential of human beings, but I am skeptical about psychedelics, that it might be a counterfeit.
Here is my current problem. McKenna and others make pretty extravagant claims. It occurred to me recently that these claims can be tested somewhat without taking anything.
McKenna promotes a psychedelic culture, where most people take psychedelics with some regularity. The supposed benefits would be more enlightened people, ego less people, more in harmony with nature etc.
However we already have psychedelic cultures, they are the very places that McKenna went to take DMT. But instead of staying in the psychedelic paradise he came home to a culture he constantly rails about. If I found a better culture to live in I would move there, immediately.
So, I'm not sure McKenna even buys into it. I think we all know he eventually stopped taking psychedelic.
And finally, I have been researching some of these shaman cultures, and there is nothing to me notable or appealing or better about them. They just seem like "primitive" people who get high a lot, and nothing really comes of it.
So what am I missing? Are shamanic psychedelic cultures better off and I'm just missing it?
Edited by Outerbass (12/17/20 02:30 AM)
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rickomalley238
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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27093172 - 12/16/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I understand your concerns, though do realize your question is quite vague and also equally very complex. I will say this: mushrooms work only as so far as the individual goes. As in, I have seen them terrify people who I did not think could be terrified; deeply terrified of themselves. This message, if comprehended and understood, can do wonders for one's spiritual growth.
I have experienced this first-hand. Deep traumas mostly resolved, inner-workings simplified, and other beautiful, healing through profound wisdoms received.
I will say this: I am currently reading a book called "Many Lives, Many Masters" (very fascinating read btw, highly recommended) and the author discusses something which likely resonates with many mushroom or psychedelic users.
He discussed (I won't spoil it) experiencing an extremely mystical, breakthrough experience in his work. He also discussed how afterwards, while calmer and more content, he was a bit puzzled how he still worried over the little things and basically how life went on. His "emotional comprehension" of the incident was shortly later not necessarily forgotten, but not re-lived per se. It's the same shit with psychedelics, really. Life goes on, it was an awesome/profound experience but "reality" supersedes memory; hence the saying "before psychedelics, chop wood/carry water, after psychedelics, chop wood/carry water."
Mushrooms, in my limited experience (less than 10x total) have been so deeply healing in my traumatized life that I am forever grateful for them. They have also showed me messages which have hurt me to my core, yet have resulted in profound and necessary growth of my being.
My take is: you seem intuitively interested. If you have a long lasting, deep issue you wish clarity on, or some other deep intention you currently, or perhaps in the future will have, do some more research and maybe give them a shot. I cannot say what will or will not work for you, but if you do research on set/setting/intentions/meditation, make sure you have no psychotic tendencies or familial history of such, and think wisely yet do not overthink anything, I believe you will tremendously benefit.
Hope this helps.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: Outerbass] 5
#27093197 - 12/16/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well, you're missing the experience, and no amount of research can prepare you for that.
Whether you'd find it valuable or not nobody else can say, and there's only one way to find out.
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: rickomalley238]
#27093206 - 12/16/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It does help, thanks.
To elaborate, I come from a background that is deeply skeptical of pharmaceuticals, Big Pharma drugs, that permeate everything in America now, so it took many years but I am open to medical MJ and shrooms, because at this point clearly some of the Pharma stuff is far worse.
Also, I don't have particular or typical traumas, I was not sexually abused or victimized, and at this point I would not deny a survivor a mushroom if it healed them of that.
I am very interested in the fungus, but it's mostly because of gardening. In order to get the plant to it's potential mycorhyzals are required.
And my interest is in maximizing human potential. You may have seen the movie Lucy, it is intellectually cartoonish but an exercise in visualizing what this may look like.
Now, I have reason to believe this is possible, but my view is that the foundation would be radically increasing the mineralization of the body and some of other nutritionals. I could go into this in more detail if needed.
McKenna and company seem to believe in this too, but through the use of DMT, and looking at the DMT using populations around the world I'm not seeing evidence of that. Yet.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27093254 - 12/16/20 11:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm a proponent of personal experimentation, documentation, and attempted repeatability at similar doses for scientific/spiritual purposes and studies.
To each their own always, according to their own gumption and excitement for experimentation.
Stay safe!
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/18/20 02:41 AM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27093419 - 12/17/20 02:29 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is not really a change of subject but to expand where I am coming from.
I am operating under the position that most biology is operating well under genetic potential.
Evidence of this is as follows. Any of you growers are probably familiar that it is hard to get a random tomato plant to get more than 4 feet high.
I recently found out the record for a tomato plant grown organically. I will ask people to guess what it is, and the average guess is around 8 feet.
The record is 28 feet. The plant looks like a tree. Grown totally organically. The grower didn't do 1, 2, or 3 things differently, he did so many things differently that he wrote a book on it.
The question is if you can do that with a tomato what else can you do. There are more examples of this, and my intent is to see if psychedelics has any possible role in this.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27093442 - 12/17/20 03:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right but that's what we'd call a false equivalency, my friend; your biology is a lot more complex, and self-repairing than any fruit or veggie. You also have a more complex nervous system than a plant does, despite their ability to potentially perceive pain signals, etc.
You are much, much more chemically complex in function than a tomato, and psychs are a completely different realm relative to that entirely.
For your analogy to work, we'd need to remove government and other restrictions that limit humans from naturally developing. THEN we're on to a good analogy!
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Loaded Shaman] 1
#27093541 - 12/17/20 05:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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i will warn you - psychedelics open you up to an entirely new realm of experiences and sensations, ways of thinking and perceiving. once you open that door, there's not really any going back to mundania - not unless you're very, very good at controlled amnesia at least. this isn't to say that it's nessessarily BAD experiences - far from it! many can be amazing! ...but they can and uusally are life changing. once you experience the world in a new light, you can't just pretend it didn't happen - you can't help but use that new perception of reality and relate it to your everyday life.
and believe me, things can get really weird when tripping. for instance, it's possible to experience a conversation with something - maybe it's an entity, or your subconscious creating a form to communicate a message to you that needs hearing, or aliens, or god (who the heck knows - the point is you may have something converse with you.) the message they give you can sometimes be important, or maybe just silly - don't always take it as literal truth, but it can't hurt to listen and at least ponder their advice, see if it's sound or not. and similar to dreams, the message may often be symbolic or cloaked in metaphor, not a literal interpretation. much of the psychedelic experience can be very similar to a dream state at times- keep that in mind. symbolism and emotions are important for understanding what you may see and feel, and visualization is a powerful tool for getting a hold of things if they start to get out of hand. if things start to turn downhill for instance, you can change the music to something pleasant and cheerful, try enjoying a warm shower, or engaging in other activities that bring you calm and joy to help bring you back to center.
and those conversations i mentioned? sometimes they get even weirder. sometimes you may remember agreeing to certain things in those conversations, but not what you agreed to - but that you agreed to forget the conversation afterward. if you try hard, you can almost, but not quite, remember what happened - almost like there's a block in the memory. you might experience strange perceptions of time - in fact, time very often slows down dramatically at some points, especially with oral dmt. 5 minutes seems to last like 10-20 minutes, for example - but not in a bad way. you're usually too busy being distracted with new sensations and experiences to be bored. 
the main key to tripping really is not to panic, really. you're not going to die, and since what you visualize tends to start becoming magnified, if you start to panic or you start focusing on your fears and doubts, they tend to start getting amplified and worsening. that's why it's best to have things like music and other things ahead of time prepared, and have a good set and setting ready ahead of time for a trip. clean yourself up, clean your room, get nice and comfy, and don't trip on a bad day when you're feeling pissed off, tired, or in major pain if you can help it. if you're experienced you can work around these things to some degree, but it's not wise to jump in the ocean with weights around your limbs instead of flotation devices.
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LeafRaker
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27093663 - 12/17/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Stamets and McKenna aren't wrong per se, but I'd warn that both are selling you things. That's why they're so grand in what they say: as salesmen, they want you to believe the maximal vision they can get away with expressing. Note that is not quite the same thing as being 'wrong'.
I'm found of an analogy for 'drugs'. Most drugs, such as alcohol, or cocaine, amphetamines, and opiods (I've experienced with all three classes, thanks to MDs!), are like sex. They tickle a sensitive region, it feels good and they train your brain to get into a loop. This loop can be very, very damaging for some, where they get confused about what's good and bad and what comes first.
The other side of the analogy is psychedelics. They are more like love. They open you up to vast possibilities, but they can require all kinds of possibilities of you as well. In short, many more things are involved and many more things are possible. But the substances are merely the start, they show you where things *might* go but you have pursue them and do the work.
To me, psychedelics are like mycorrhizal fungi for our minds. They are tools or symbiotes for us that point us into a new areas of growth. Realizing that our minds are complex, much more complex than most things we can imagine, these substances help us better explore the possibilities by providing algorithms that allow for re-evaluation. But the commitment to become something new is still up to the user.
BTW, think seriously about how you would test your hypotheses involving psychedelics. While you note that psychedelic cultures are obviously imperfect, I don't count that as proof that psychedelic substances are ineffective. The experiment I'd like to see would involve very closely matched groups and eliminating the possibilities that purported improvements from the psychedelic using group were *NOT* random. This is very, very difficult science and I struggle to see how to make this conclusive.
While we might all want crystal-clear science on the subject, there are many of us who were impressed enough by others' portrayal of psychedelics that we experimented on our own with them. We've found them to be helpful, though imperfect and challenging, and so we continue on our path. Consider that there are many possibilities between 'human perfection' and where we are now and that for many of us, psychedelic use feels like one of the better tools for self-improvement.
-------------------- Knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LeafRaker]
#27093689 - 12/17/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the responses, I would say I find the psychedelic cultures interesting because they put McKenna's ideas to the test. McKenna creates a narrative of cultural improvement and expansion, but if we look at these cultures there is no evidence of that. If we go find tribes using DMT I haven't seen anything yet to make me buy into McKenna's narrative.
In fact there is such a lack of any evidence of that sort I am baffled at what McKenna is on about. Surely he would have found his paradise in those jungles. I'm not putting these people down, but the proof would be in some kind of pudding somewhere
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jesusfish
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27093765 - 12/17/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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At the end of the day they are just drugs. The claims about them can be exaggerated at times. No drug, whether it's an SSRI, Opioid, or even psychedelic, will permanently end suffering.
After taking a psychedelic you're still human, You still get depressed, angry, and frustrated.
However, psychedelics can give you the perspective you need to better navigate these emotions and situations. You don't need to take psychedelics every so often to be "enlightened", but even just a few experiences can certainly be enough to transform the right kind of person into a kinder, and better individual.
That being said there can definitely be some negatives. It's the sort of decision you need to come to on your own accord.
Additionally, as to what you said in regards to shamanistic tribes, I think there is something to be said for that kind of community. If you're from America or almost any other Western country I'm sure you can resonate with the dissatisfaction with many have towards their current life. Smaller living can definitely eliminate some of those concerns.
-------------------- LOVE
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27093874 - 12/17/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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But nobody moves to those places. Migration is toward the countries everyone complains about
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LeafRaker
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27093960 - 12/17/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think you're making some bold assumptions.
First, I'm a little cautious about taking McKenna all that seriously. It's kind of heresy here, but in this case it's important.
Second, I'm pretty sure you or I (or anyone, really) have a very hazy idea of where psychedelic usage is highest. Further you mentioned countries as your level of granularity for comparison between psychedelic/non-psychedelic 'cultures', but I can imagine that cities or other smaller units are more suitable.
What you believe *might* be true, I'm just not convinced that's an obvious or even easily defended take away.
-------------------- Knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite.
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jesusfish
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27093994 - 12/17/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's a big change for a lot of people.
Many have work, friends, and family they wouldn't want to leave or they would simply miss the conveniences of their lives even if they'd be happier.
And that claim's also simply not true. There are plenty of people who explore some sort of communal living at some point in their lives. Just look at the explosion of intentional communities.
Plus, if you look at those countries, it's not all tribal communities. Actually, a majority of people in developing countries live in cities or non-tribal affiliated communities. From that position, the US would certainly seem alluring, with it's better earning potentials and quality of life compared to say Mexico City.
-------------------- LOVE
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LosTresOjos
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: jesusfish] 4
#27094012 - 12/17/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You are missing the mark here buddy.
Mushrooms are like a telescope or a microscope. People buy these things to play around with and some buy these things to do some research that they care deeply about. Same thing with psychedelics. They can be miss used. Reading until your eyes bleed will get you no closer to the experience and once you are in you will see the correlations mckenna was making. They are crystal clear.
Also, i'm vary wary of straight people. Why would you not want to have points of triangulation for your self?
Don't let your fears control you. You are in control of that fear.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LeafRaker]
#27094571 - 12/17/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LeafRaker said: I think you're making some bold assumptions.
First, I'm a little cautious about taking McKenna all that seriously. It's kind of heresy here, but in this case it's important.
Second, I'm pretty sure you or I (or anyone, really) have a very hazy idea of where psychedelic usage is highest. Further you mentioned countries as your level of granularity for comparison between psychedelic/non-psychedelic 'cultures', but I can imagine that cities or other smaller units are more suitable.
What you believe *might* be true, I'm just not convinced that's an obvious or even easily defended take away.
I could be wrong but in the pop culture everyone is going to South America for DMT, from the Rogan world back to McKenna. Perhaps you can find other places.
But, the point is you are supposed to be able to build a way of life this way, in a primitive manner (that is the point of getting out of the modern polluting world) but all these westerners go down there and then come back to their materialist polluted world. The world they say they want is already going on down there.
To elaborate, those people who are really concerned about the environment, there is no way for modern western countries to stop polluting. I've been lectured about global warming since the 80's and emissions keep soaring year after year. Eg, if you are worried about that the only thing you can do is adopt a primitive lifestyle, like found in the undeveloped countries. If you want to drop your footprint best thing to do is just move there and live with them and learn their ways. But no one seems to want to do it. Paradise already exists but no one is going
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27094730 - 12/17/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is the lifestyle I am currently pursuing. I have 1.5 acres and am turning it into a food forest. My goal is to grow all my own food, and this year I will probably come close. I have been gardening for 10 years.
Here is a good practical presentation on mycorhizals for the garden
Deep mulch plus fungus, that is the key, growing open pollinated cultivars
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LosTresOjos
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27094764 - 12/17/20 06:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think you would benefit greatly from a psychedelic experience.
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27094768 - 12/17/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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i mean, by that argument, the absolute best way to drop your footprint and the rest of humanity's is to convince everyone to go on a murder-suicide spree via various methods, whether by simple mass shootings or inventing diseases to wipe out humanity or the like.
...doesn't sound terribly reasonable, does it? it sounds LOGICAL, yes, but not reasonable. the thing is, people are reasonable beings, not logical ones. they got to where they were today, not because they are cold emotionless beings of logic, but because they are willing to embrace seeming contradictions and strive for impossible. strong AND flexible. crunchy AND chewy. cheap AND luxurious. at rest AND in motion. (thank Einstein for that one - it's all a matter of the viewer's perspective.)
so it might not seem logical that people go to the tribal communities to experience a DMT trip then go back to their polluted world of modern civilization - but it's perfectly reasonable. they're embracing the best of both worlds, and striving to find a way to bring both together to work together as a whole. yin and yang. there's a reason that symbol is so significant, so easily understood by those who see it.
the world, and our civilization, advances when we strive to find harmony and bring such seeming contradictions to work together. it's like a dance, or a song, a dynamic balance, not a static one - each moment a different stance, or different players and notes ringing forth, yet always working for a greater whole. in this light, evil can be seen as that which "disrupts" the song or dance, a sort of illness that needs correcting rather than "that person is evil". instead it's more "that persons internal harmony is seriously disrupted, and they need help". it puts the focus on striving to fix the issue rather than just making convenient excuses and going "oh well, what can you do?" and ignoring that person's plight. because whether it's due to mental illness, desperation, abuse, or some other reason...there's reasons for why people do the things they do. because people are reasonable beings. even if they're not logical ones. 
as we will hopefully soon see, some of those people who went to those tribal places and brought DMT back to modern civilization, as well as those who brought psychedelics to the attention of modern civilization again, did so because they want a world that's both modern AND works in harmony with the earth. one that's modern AND happy. this is impossible. this is also totally achievable. all it takes is a willingness to embrace seeming contradictions, and realize that in the end, there was no contradiction to begin with - only a truth that has many facets.
because reality is a living, multi-hued gem, not some black and white pattern on a flat sheet of paper.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27094846 - 12/17/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Psion said: i mean, by that argument, the absolute best way to drop your footprint and the rest of humanity's is to convince everyone to go on a murder-suicide spree via various methods, whether by simple mass shootings or inventing diseases to wipe out humanity or the like.
True
Quote:
...doesn't sound terribly reasonable, does it? it sounds LOGICAL, yes, but not reasonable.
I have not found the environmental movement to be logical or reasonable. I've been listening to them since the 1980's and they have accomplished nothing. Some of the largest carbon emitters in history are environmentalists.
Quote:
the thing is, people are reasonable beings, not logical ones. they got to where they were today, not because they are cold emotionless beings of logic, but because they are willing to embrace seeming contradictions and strive for impossible. strong AND flexible. crunchy AND chewy. cheap AND luxurious. at rest AND in motion. (thank Einstein for that one - it's all a matter of the viewer's perspective.)
so it might not seem logical that people go to the tribal communities to experience a DMT trip then go back to their polluted world of modern civilization - but it's perfectly reasonable.
I don't think so. I would move. I've moved many times, and came close to leaving the country at one point. Still might do it. Rural Mexico has a great appeal.
Quote:
they're embracing the best of both worlds, and striving to find a way to bring both together to work together as a whole. yin and yang.
I think they are trying to have it both ways, and as Mr. Miyagi says, pick a side of the road and go there. Otherwise, squish like grape.
Quote:
there's a reason that symbol is so significant, so easily understood by those who see it.
the world, and our civilization, advances when we strive to find harmony and bring such seeming contradictions to work together. it's like a dance, or a song, a dynamic balance, not a static one - each moment a different stance, or different players and notes ringing forth, yet always working for a greater whole. in this light, evil can be seen as that which "disrupts" the song or dance, a sort of illness that needs correcting rather than "that person is evil". instead it's more "that persons internal harmony is seriously disrupted, and they need help". it puts the focus on striving to fix the issue rather than just making convenient excuses and going "oh well, what can you do?" and ignoring that person's plight. because whether it's due to mental illness, desperation, abuse, or some other reason...there's reasons for why people do the things they do. because people are reasonable beings. even if they're not logical ones. 
as we will hopefully soon see, some of those people who went to those tribal places and brought DMT back to modern civilization, as well as those who brought psychedelics to the attention of modern civilization again, did so because they want a world that's both modern AND works in harmony with the earth. one that's modern AND happy. this is impossible. this is also totally achievable. all it takes is a willingness to embrace seeming contradictions, and realize that in the end, there was no contradiction to begin with - only a truth that has many facets.
because reality is a living, multi-hued gem, not some black and white pattern on a flat sheet of paper.
I don't know, the environmentalists have been issuing the 10 years left dire warning again, there's no way in the world DMT, Elon Musk or Jesus Christ can turn it around that fast.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27094868 - 12/17/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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So I'm not a big fan of Stamets, I know people who used to know him, and he seems like mostly a self promotion. I'm ok with promotion but some self promotion rubs me the wrong way.
I do enjoy McKenna. I really like his opposition to the cult of scientism, I like his dogged pursuit of really wide view of reality, too many specialists I think now.
And I think of him mostly as a poet. The way he talks I think is best explained by his early forays into literature and poetry, and it's very enjoyable to listen to.
However I don't just believe what people say. I'm into rigorous evaluation of claims.
I am interested in hallucinations. It's fascinating that people see the same entities when tripping. I don't know what to make of that. It has to mean something. And, the imagination part of the brain appears to be heavily stimulated and we really don't know anything about that in terms of neurology.
So it certainly is of interest.
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27094891 - 12/17/20 08:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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funny thing about roads - you're thinking in terms of particles. but a wave is perfectly capable of taking both roads at the same time. progress is often described as a wave, a sweeping tide that washes away the old and brings change.
and i said people are reasonable beings. i never said they were good reasons. ;3 you're confusing reason with logic there. reason is not logic. a person have perfectly valid reasons for doing something, even if they're perfectly bad reasons. if you were to live in their shoes, you might even see how they came to their conclusions and reasoning - even if you didn't agree with it, because your own experiences (and reasoning) is different from theirs.
human beings use both logic and reason, and sometimes (often) they're at odds with each other. the tricky part is learning to balance the two, so that you're not just a fleshy robot, but also not a crazy karen, or worse... a vegan. ::shudder:: (i'm poking fun here, really! vegetarians are cool. it's just that i've yet to meet a sane vegan. i'm sure they exist though! ...probably.)
anyways, dmt alone might not be enough to save the world, but paired with therapy, it very well might. psychedelics are quite literally the penicillin of the mental world, and i don't say that lightly. things from addiction to depression to PTSD are all some of the highly promising ailments they can treat or outright cure in the majority of people, especially with a therapist to guide that person. that isn't to say that alone they can't treat a person, but it's often better paired with therapy, just like it's better to have a doctor to set a broken bone for you than to try and set it yourself. (unless you REALLY know what you're doing).
i can attest personally to psychedelics power to cure depression, as i didn't even realize how depressed i was until i first tripped. once i did, it was like a massive weight was lifted off my shoulders. i hadn't realized just how monotone my voice had become, how little joy i had been experiencing from life, how apathetic i had become, until i had that weight taken off. it's been over 2 years and it's not come back - in fact, if anything i've felt less depressed than i've ever felt in my life. i've started to lose weight, become healthier, and feel like i'm getting on track with my life for the first time. if that sort of change were to become widespread in people, imagine the ripples of changes it would cause throughout society.
a world full of happier, healthier people who desire to make the world a better place? i'm pretty sure the world would suddenly start changing for the better far quicker than you would think.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion] 1
#27094999 - 12/17/20 09:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's not that psychedelics are just good at curing people, they are capable of making you better when there's nothing obviously wrong with you at all. 
They can bring out the best in humans. OP can get off the fence and find out.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27095011 - 12/17/20 09:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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FYI it's never going to happen. Ive heard people say what you are saying almost word for word since the 80's, and it went the other way as fast as it could go.
It's every man for himself. I am becoming food independent for that reason. Americans are being destroyed by the food supply and there is no way out unless you live in a few rare areas that real food is available, or you grow your own. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is. It's brutally hard and difficult work but you have to walk the talk at some point, rather than passively waiting for someone else to fix things for you.
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27095079 - 12/17/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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every man for himself is the mindset that leads to tribalism, and thus, a lack of progress. it is only through cooperation and reaching out that modern civilization exists at all. the reason technology has exponentially increased is due to communication - look what happened when the internet was invented and the age of information came to be. science progressed, not by leaps and bounds, by by literal warpspeed.
who would have thought that in only a few decades we would have gone from the first mac and floppydisk to freaking smartphones, reusable rockets, robotic limb replacements that amputees can control with their thoughts almost like their original limb, lab grown beef, solar panels that are one of the cheapest forms of energy now, self-driving cars, GMOs, and fusion reactors that are approaching breakeven threshholds, with theoretical outputs of 10 times threshhold energy?
it's only sensible. you can only do so much alone. the more people there are, the more possibilities there are. we may have created this mess, but there's billions of us on this planet. that means billions of potential workers, billions of potential thinkers to come up with solutions to our problems. we aren't the earth's problem - we're it's best solution. we simply have to reach out to each other and strive for greatness, not cower and pretend it will all go away if we hide in some remote wilderness.
because i can assure you, you won't get everyone on board with your "cower in the wilderness" idea. far better to actually address the earth's issues and try to get everyone working together.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27095134 - 12/17/20 11:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: PrimalSoup]
#27095156 - 12/18/20 12:24 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Never going to happen bros. Ive heard alternative energy and whatever else is just a few years away since the 80's. GMOs are terrible and our ag soils are dying. Self driving electric cars will be run on coal. California is suffering brown outs because green energy is failing and will continue to fail. I live in the real world, not imaginary make believe worlds. China and India are emitting at astonishing levels, Ameicans and Europeans continue to emit whenever they feel like.
The super geniuses are again saying we have 10 years left.
The only way out is back to the jungle if you believe this sort of thing. It's the only way. I'm going back to the farm for the food
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27095180 - 12/18/20 01:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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er... you haven't been reading the news lately then on fusion then. it's kind of different this time. for one thing, we've got far better options this time around for fusion reactors, using supercomputers and AI to model plasma (plus new math formulas that are MUCH better at predicting the chaotic motion of a hot ball of plasma) than we did in the 80s. plus far better materials to contain it. not to mention a better way of actually testing reactors - we have 3D printers now. instead of years of design > build a model > test > damnit now we gotta tweak a part > repeat we can simply design certain parts via 3D modeling, tweak them as needed, and use 3D printers (these aren't your home models that just shoot plastic either) and send a new adjusted part to optimize the reactor design as needed.
this means that what used to take years or decades of development and far more money now takes months, and allows scientists far more wiggle room with experimenting and optimizing, allowing them to explore more possibilities that could work to maximize energy yield.
in the GMO field, what evidence do you have for the GMOs are terrible argument? because that's one hell of a blanket statement. all it is, is a modern equivalent of altering genetic blueprints, the same thing we've been doing for millennia, only now it's using a surgeons scalpel where before we were using a rusty steak knife. if you're going to scream Monsanto at me, that's not GMOs fault. that's Monsanto's fault. that has absolutely nothing to do with GMOs and something to do with a company.
all you're doing is saying "oh well, let's just give up, we're all doomed" instead of reaching out and trying to strive for solutions with others. all that's going to lead to is either enough people believing that, that the efforts to save the world fail, civilization crashes, and humanity either gets wiped out or winds up having to restart (and with even worse conditions than the first time), or the rest of modern civilization succeeds despite naysayers like you, and you'll have to live your life remembering that you were one of the ones who gave up and did nothing while the rest of us were striving to save everyone, yourself included.
i dunno about you, but i would feel pretty awful myself in either situation unless i was one of the ones doing everything i could to save the world - and just going off into the woods is certainly not doing all i can to save the world.
as far as california suffering brown outs, i've lived in california for 30 years. you know what the brown outs are like?
...nothingburgers, pretty much. maybe the lights go out once every week or two during the summer months for a minute or two. and this has a lot to do with, not green energy, but lack of energy storage and failing infrastructure, because america is way behind the times. there are options to address these already, such as gravity based storage, that would make such things part of the past - but that requires investment. and investment means money, which of course no businessman wants to actually INVEST because they want short term gains. the thought of spending money now to reap large rewards later, even financial ones, is something few businessmen have the balls to do. (partly because so many CEOs are quite literally mental cases.)
and china is doing quite well on emissions per person compared to the US. they might have twice the emissions total as us, but they're less than half the emissions per person as the average US citizen. india's is even less than chinas, both in total and per capita.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27095201 - 12/18/20 02:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Psion said: er... you haven't been reading the news lately then on fusion then. it's kind of different this time.
Lol so hard.
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for one thing, we've got far better options this time around for fusion reactors, using supercomputers and AI to model plasma (plus new math formulas that are MUCH better at predicting the chaotic motion of a hot ball of plasma) than we did in the 80s. plus far better materials to contain it. not to mention a better way of actually testing reactors - we have 3D printers now. instead of years of design > build a model > test > damnit now we gotta tweak a part > repeat we can simply design certain parts via 3D modeling, tweak them as needed, and use 3D printers (these aren't your home models that just shoot plastic either) and send a new adjusted part to optimize the reactor design as needed.
this means that what used to take years or decades of development and far more money now takes months, and allows scientists far more wiggle room with experimenting and optimizing, allowing them to explore more possibilities that could work to maximize energy yield.
How much money are you investing in this.
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in the GMO field, what evidence do you have for the GMOs are terrible argument? because that's one hell of a blanket statement.
There is evidence that I will have to re-find that GMO crops do not work well with soil microbes and require chemical fertilizers, which is double negative whammy to the soil. Root exudates build soil carbon, so when the microbes disappear soil carbon starts to drop, requiring more synthetics which also redice soil carbon and you have a dead soil.
GMOs are only being used because the soils are failing, if we had healthy agricultural soils GMO would not be needed. We never to splice genes to ward off pathogens until recent decades. Our soils are failing because of industrial practices which will not change.
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all it is, is a modern equivalent of altering genetic blueprints, the same thing we've been doing for millennia, only now it's using a surgeons scalpel where before we were using a rusty steak knife. if you're going to scream Monsanto at me, that's not GMOs fault. that's Monsanto's fault. that has absolutely nothing to do with GMOs and something to do with a company.
We've never spliced genes from other life forms before, to the best of my knowledge. But that's beside my point.
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all you're doing is saying "oh well, let's just give up, we're all doomed"
Environmentalists are the ones saying we are all doomed. I'm only taking the rational next steps based on that premise. We've lived primitively before, we can do it again.
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instead of reaching out
Reach out to who. Environmental leaders are busy flying jets to their conferences and won't work or even talk with you or me. They would step over you in the street and don't care if you live or die.
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and trying to strive for solutions with others. all that's going to lead to is either enough people believing that, that the efforts to save the world fail, civilization crashes, and humanity either gets wiped out or winds up having to restart (and with even worse conditions than the first time), or the rest of modern civilization succeeds despite naysayers like you,
I'm not the naysayer. I am taking radical action to save myself.
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and you'll have to live your life remembering that you were one of the ones who gave up and did nothing while the rest of us were striving to save everyone, yourself included.
Lol. Did you read this before you pressed submit.
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i dunno about you, but i would feel pretty awful myself in either situation unless i was one of the ones doing everything i could to save the world - and just going off into the woods is certainly not doing all i can to save the world.
I personally do not know of a single person saving the world. Why you would put that on me boggles my mind.
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as far as california suffering brown outs, i've lived in california for 30 years. you know what the brown outs are like?
...nothingburgers, pretty much. maybe the lights go out once every week or two during the summer months for a minute or two. and this has a lot to do with, not green energy, but lack of energy storage and failing infrastructure, because america is way behind the times.
Not America. California.
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there are options to address these already, such as gravity based storage, that would make such things part of the past - but that requires investment. and investment means money, which of course no businessman wants to actually INVEST because they want short term gains.
Or that stuff doesn't actually work. Business people will do whatever you pay them to do, so I guess another California backfire.
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the thought of spending money now to reap large rewards later, even financial ones, is something few businessmen have the balls to do. (partly because so many CEOs are quite literally mental cases.)
How about you. Would you do it? Do you invest for the long term without any thought of short term gain? Do you ask other people to do what you won't do.
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and china is doing quite well on emissions per person compared to the US. they might have twice the emissions total as us, but they're less than half the emissions per person as the average US citizen. india's is even less than chinas, both in total and per capita.
Emissions are growing, all around the world, like they have since beginning of industry. And it won't stop.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
#27095212 - 12/18/20 02:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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LosTresOjos said: You are missing the mark here buddy.
Mushrooms are like a telescope or a microscope. People buy these things to play around with and some buy these things to do some research that they care deeply about. Same thing with psychedelics. They can be miss used. Reading until your eyes bleed will get you no closer to the experience and once you are in you will see the correlations mckenna was making. They are crystal clear.
Also, i'm vary wary of straight people. Why would you not want to have points of triangulation for your self?
Don't let your fears control you. You are in control of that fear.
Like most things, the people that could benefit the most, are usually the most resistant.
Very well said here, my friend.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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InnerWisdom


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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: PrimalSoup] 1
#27095251 - 12/18/20 04:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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PrimalSoup said: Well, you're missing the experience, and no amount of research can prepare you for that.
Whether you'd find it valuable or not nobody else can say, and there's only one way to find out. 
Ballsy answer, I like it cos its true.
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InnerWisdom


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Re: Questions about the psychedlic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27095256 - 12/18/20 04:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do it OP
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LeafRaker
nomad



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27095309 - 12/18/20 05:24 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe this here is all true, but it's no longer a statement about the psychedelic experience, it's just free association of a few cherry-picked statements. Again, it *might* be true, but I can clearly see you haven't made a good case here.
It seems you have many interests and opinions, both things I think are positives. But perhaps you could benefit from working through them, gaining some clarity on how you understand them? If only there was a way to do that...
-------------------- Knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LeafRaker]
#27095427 - 12/18/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks, I'm not really making a case. I've been listening to McKenna for about 6 months and am overflowing with questions and not sure where else to go.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27095947 - 12/18/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Outerbass said: Never going to happen bros. Ive heard alternative energy and whatever else is just a few years away since the 80's. GMOs are terrible and our ag soils are dying. Self driving electric cars will be run on coal. California is suffering brown outs because green energy is failing and will continue to fail. I live in the real world, not imaginary make believe worlds. China and India are emitting at astonishing levels, Ameicans and Europeans continue to emit whenever they feel like.
The super geniuses are again saying we have 10 years left.
The only way out is back to the jungle if you believe this sort of thing. It's the only way. I'm going back to the farm for the food
Well your ignorance is certainly commendable and I wish you well.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: PrimalSoup] 1
#27096177 - 12/18/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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honestly, it sounds like you're suffering from at least some depression here, and it's causing you to see the world in a darker view, missing the people that actually ARE striving to make a difference in world, trying to make it a better place. it's pretty easy to do even when you're not suffering from it- negativity always did shout with a voice like thunder, while positivity whispers with a voice gentle as a spring breeze. when you're in the throes of gloom though, it's near impossible to see anything but the worst in everything, because that's what resonates with your own heart and mind.
all i can really say is that there really are lots of people out there that are doing their damnest to save the world in whatever ways they can. hell, i'm only a broke cashier that makes about a thousand bucks a month. i can't do much on my own. i can't invest, i'm barely hanging on with paying my own rent, i'm wearing clothes from years ago and worried about my own future. but i still have a voice. i can still try and help others to strive to do better, to work together, to make the best of themselves and love each other instead of turn against each other.
it might not be much on it's own, but it's better than me trying to run away and live a nomadic existence, even if i've been tempted before. i owe my life to modern civilization, even from the moment of my birth - i wouldn't have survived without a C-section, because i was too big to be born naturally. modern science saved me. modern science is helping me to lose weight, with metformin to fix my metabolic syndrome and topamax to deal with the damn migraines i've suffered all my life. there may be lots of issues to solve yet, but i owe my life to those who came before, and thus i should do my best to pay it forward to those who come after as well, and in so doing benefit myself as well.
a journey is better shared than walked alone, after all.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27096794 - 12/18/20 10:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's very strange that you guys would attribute a discussion in facts to personality defects, I don't think there is a need to do that.
I don't think that because some things are working means all things will work. The issues I've touched upon have been traveling in a straight line for 2 generations with no indication of changing. The pipe dreams of yesterday are still in the pipe only, with a record of nothing but failed promises.
I believe that if we never left the farm you would not have metabolic syndrome. I think the farm/garden is the foundation of life, and that is a positive hopeful thing not defeatist. The greatest joys in my life are in the garden. I think modern people leaving their gardens was a fatal mistake.
I am a world leading expert in carbon rich fungally dominated soils. That is the opposite of ignorant. There are few people I can even talk to about it because I know so much, and I am on the cutting edge of that research.
But if my football team is losing the game I don't pretend to myself they aren't. I've evangelized gardening for several years and made zero converts. I've literally convinced no one to garden. I have one of the top 3 gardens in the world and nobody cares. It is what it is. Noah convinced nobody.
If I believed in DMT I would move to the jungle. If I was carbonphobic I would move to the jungle. It is an actual answer, not a science fiction heavy on the fiction answer. That's the thing I am into actual answers. Growing your own food is an actual answer. It is positive wonderful thing, there is nothing depressing about it.
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jesusfish
Naive Tripper


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27096873 - 12/18/20 11:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah, I think it's immature to attack you personally here. You're just skeptical.
First and foremost, I want to say, I don't think you necessarily need to do any psychedelic. You seem relatively happy and fulfilled so maybe you don't want to introduce psychedelics into your life. I think that's perfectly reasonable and sometimes I wish I had taken more time to decide if I really wanted the psychedelic experience or not. A lot of what can be achieved through psychedelics can be achieved through other mediums as well. You do seem slightly curious though, so don't necessarily take that as discouragement, just a cation of sorts.
Secondly, I think a lot of people involved in psychedelics did make moves to achieve their ideal community. Communes of the 60's make up recognizable portion of these attempts, even if a lot of them ended up petering out or falling short. Mckenna himself moved to Hawaii and started his own ethnobotanical preserve.
This is in many ways similar to what you've chosen to do with your life, except of course you provide yourself and possible your friends and family with food, whereas Mckenna provided those around him with access to the experiences he preached about. In doing this, he was enacting his ideals, even if it's not in the way you envisioned.
-------------------- LOVE
Edited by jesusfish (12/18/20 11:15 PM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27096988 - 12/19/20 02:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think sometimes it's nice to just be understood by another person, I don't even think we need that much validation.
And we're just bros talking about life from different walks of life, no harm no foul. No offense taken, none given.
I do think McKenna did the right thing moving to Hawaii. I like that. I like taking action. I didn't look at my gardening as a political statement or intellectual vanity, it just seemed like the most obvious thing to do, and have been surprised nobody else sees it that way. However consequences do flow from our decisions, our actions and inactions.
It was too bad he got cancer. I would hope the answer to cancer was indeed in the botanicals and the plants. Even though he couldn't find it, hopefully it is in there,
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InnerWisdom


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27097028 - 12/19/20 03:29 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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oh man if mckenna was alive still. WTF
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27098445 - 12/19/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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i grew up gardening, so i don't think my metabolic syndrome had anything to do with lack of getting dirty, just FYI. i literally grew up making mudballs for fun, lol. i simply was born chonkey at 9 lb, 5 oz, and never was thin to begin with. what caused it? who knows, but it wasn't due to a lack of being outdoors, or even exercise. it wasn't even due to overexposure to sweets and processed food, as i didn't even crave sweets and preferred fruits and more healthier stuff over cakes and the like, and never really overate. the one time in my life i actually DID overeat on processed crap and junk food, i paid for it by swelling up another 55 lb in a few months.
as for why people don't show your interest in gardening, it might simply be because they don't have the energy or space for it. many people in the USA live in apartments with absolutely no gardening spots (not even a balcony to put plants in), are extremely struggling financially at the moment, and/or are struggling with multiple jobs, kids, etc. and have been for some time. in short, they're exhausted. gardening is a physical activity and the last thing many people want to do is spend time doing something strenuous and new (and that costs money) when they have 2$ in the bank account, are sore from work, and have no idea where to even put such plants in. if you want to get them interested in such things, you'd have to address issues like these - or at least figure out WHY they're not interested in the first place, then address those issues.
at any rate, i'm sorry for riling you up. i wanted you to understand that trying to withdraw from others, that every man for himself is not the way to go if we want to make the world a better place, but in the end, that's not something i can teach you. it's something you have to witness for yourself. only life can teach you this lesson.
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jomanda1990
Ewewazos



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27098471 - 12/19/20 09:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Outerbass said: If I believed in DMT I would move to the jungle.
The thing is, you're literally jumping to conclusions because you have ZERO idea how the psychedelic experience is like or what it can make you see about both the external and internal worlds. Go ahead, read books, make observations, but know that you're just guessing about something completely alien to you. In the end it's you who's judging tribal lifestyles as "primitive" when, if we respected the environment like those very same people, we wouldn't be facing the environmental problems we have.
It's really not about "moving to the jungle". If everyone crazy about psychedelics or environmentalism moved to the Amazon TODAY, I guarantee Bolsonaro or some other fucktard politician would be burning your home down in less than three years to place farms or palm tree plantations. You're missing the point by a mile
McKenna regarded highly the potential of the psychedelic experience to take one's focus away from the mundane and into the transcendental. If more people were into proper psychedelic use (i.e., not just party drugs), you'd most likely see a decline in the retarded ego-centered consumerism that is plaguing the west right now, which is one of the main causes of people's general detachment from nature and the environmental crisis. Disregard for nature and for others.
And just because you might care about my "credentials" (lol), I am a scientific editor for papers on physics and electrical engineering and also do scientific journalism. I love science, and I think it's one of the best tools going forward. But so are psychedelics, because people need to feel part of nature again and QUICK. If you really like nature, my humble guess is that you'll enjoy them deeply. You won't be damaged in any way man, just take the plunge already; do it while looking at your plants on a peaceful day. You'll 100% love it. Have a nice one
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27098502 - 12/19/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Psion said: i grew up gardening, so i don't think my metabolic syndrome had anything to do with lack of getting dirty, just FYI. i literally grew up making mudballs for fun, lol. i simply was born chonkey at 9 lb, 5 oz, and never was thin to begin with. what caused it? who knows, but it wasn't due to a lack of being outdoors, or even exercise. it wasn't even due to overexposure to sweets and processed food, as i didn't even crave sweets and preferred fruits and more healthier stuff over cakes and the like, and never really overate. the one time in my life i actually DID overeat on processed crap and junk food, i paid for it by swelling up another 55 lb in a few months.
Metabolic syndrome is most likely "mostly" a mineral deficiency. If you ate only out of the produce section you can still get it as today's produce, even organic, has only a few percent of the nutrients it did 100 years ago. The only way out is to have a high carbon, high fungal, high mineral soil planting heirloom varieties.
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as for why people don't show your interest in gardening, it might simply be because they don't have the energy or space for it. many people in the USA live in apartments with absolutely no gardening spots (not even a balcony to put plants in), are extremely struggling financially at the moment, and/or are struggling with multiple jobs, kids, etc. and have been for some time. in short, they're exhausted. gardening is a physical activity and the last thing many people want to do is spend time doing something strenuous and new (and that costs money) when they have 2$ in the bank account, are sore from work, and have no idea where to even put such plants in. if you want to get them interested in such things, you'd have to address issues like these - or at least figure out WHY they're not interested in the first place, then address those issues.
I only ever tried to convert people who had large properties like mine. They didn't do it because they were lazy.
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at any rate, i'm sorry for riling you up. i wanted you to understand that trying to withdraw from others, that every man for himself is not the way to go if we want to make the world a better place, but in the end, that's not something i can teach you. it's something you have to witness for yourself. only life can teach you this lesson.
I don't feel riled up, sometimes conversations start to go off topic, into the land of straw.
The world taught me long ago not to follow the herd, and that mankind is prone to failure. Many cultures were not able to save themselves. We have all those hallmarks. Life may still teach you this lesson.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: jomanda1990]
#27098517 - 12/19/20 10:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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jomanda1990 said:
The thing is, you're literally jumping to conclusions because you have ZERO idea how the psychedelic experience is like or what it can make you see about both the external and internal worlds. Go ahead, read books, make observations, but know that you're just guessing about something completely alien to you. In the end it's you who's judging tribal lifestyles as "primitive" when, if we respected the environment like those very same people, we wouldn't be facing the environmental problems we have.
It's really not about "moving to the jungle". If everyone crazy about psychedelics or environmentalism moved to the Amazon TODAY, I guarantee Bolsonaro or some other fucktard politician would be burning your home down in less than three years to place farms or palm tree plantations. You're missing the point by a mile
McKenna regarded highly the potential of the psychedelic experience to take one's focus away from the mundane and into the transcendental. If more people were into proper psychedelic use (i.e., not just party drugs), you'd most likely see a decline in the retarded ego-centered consumerism that is plaguing the west right now, which is one of the main causes of people's general detachment from nature and the environmental crisis. Disregard for nature and for others.
And just because you might care about my "credentials" (lol), I am a scientific editor for papers on physics and electrical engineering and also do scientific journalism. I love science, and I think it's one of the best tools going forward. But so are psychedelics, because people need to feel part of nature again and QUICK. If you really like nature, my humble guess is that you'll enjoy them deeply. You won't be damaged in any way man, just take the plunge already; do it while looking at your plants on a peaceful day. You'll 100% love it. Have a nice one
Well to simplify, the world McKenna dreamed about already exists. I'm trying not use inflammatory language, so use whatever words you want, but the lifestyle in those jungles are already there. That's it. That's the final product. They already achieved it. I heard him once say if he could take as much substance as he wanted he would just move into the woods. Well, that's already been done. He's been to that place, and left it behind.
I don't intend to insult those people, but I look at their lifestye and it's kind of meh. I'm not sure that is the ultimate human experience or path. It doesn't appear to be the answer, unless I am missing something.
OTOH, I ran into this guy and he seems to be on the path. I follow him. I eventually got to know him. And this it he lifestyle I have chosen, and I love it.
Now, fungus is a part of my lifestyle. I do everything I can do encourage mycelial growth in my soils. So, I am fond of fungus. That led me eventually to McKenna. In addition to growing my own food I will be growing mushrooms soon.
I now think you are not in touch with nature if you aren't growing your own plants, and doing a lot of camping.
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27098549 - 12/19/20 11:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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a lot of the produce i ate came from our own backyard, as we had our own almond trees, raspberries, cherry trees, apricot tree, plum tree, grew strawberries, had grapevines, and more... but again, this really is pointless. you'll simply try and find more explanations for my "fatness" and the truth is really "who knows". for all we know it might simply be a genetic reason. all i know is i have modern science and people who actually strove to say "i don't like this, let's work together to fix this" to thank for getting better.
you can enjoy your lifestyle on your farm, but in the end you will have modern science, and people who worked together to be grateful for for many of the tools and knowledge you use, including the computer you type on, the internet you use, the knowledge of crops you grow, the roads you drive on, and more. you may choose to strive for living by yourself and self sufficiency, but you owe your very life to modern society and those who worked together to influence your past, even if you choose to avoid participating as much as possible yourself.
that makes me feel sad, but that's your choice to try cutting yourself off from everyone else.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27098561 - 12/19/20 11:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Fatness" and metabolic syndrome are only loosely linked if at all, as you can see here. I still think metabolic syndrome is a mineral deficiency. I think this guy is more right, but even he isn't completely right. I don't trust any American when it comes to nutrition. We simply have food in our stores that are giant science experiment that is producing horrific results
In other words Americans are obsessed with the ratio of their macros, and I think they are doing it backwards. The most important thing is minerals, then vitamins, then amino acids, then phytochemicals, then omega fats etc, and if you do that you will not ever eat processed foods, and with 30 minutes of research you will discover those are not even available in the produce section. In America you have to grow it yourself, in very particular ways.
I have been fat, I don't carry any kind stigma with it, it is a complicated subject. I just don't think you are metformin deficient.
Personally, I am highly charismatic introvert, which means I have people constantly gluing themselves too me while I am trying to get rid of the them. I find deep peace and happiness is solitude. OTOH I have a rich family life I enjoy. It's not that cut and dried.
However, I don't expect other people to solve my problems, and I don't expect the herd to anything other than be a herd, and run over the cliff if that's what they decide to do. I don't feel any sadness in any of this subject matter. I love gardening by myself, it feels great. If humanity needs me to save them, then they should listen to me and not ask me to listen to them, by definition.
Edited by Outerbass (12/20/20 05:58 AM)
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27098587 - 12/20/20 12:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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well, metformin basically is just a drug that resets the body's sensitivity to insulin, making it act like it did in it's younger days. i guess the problem with me is that i never had that sensitivity in the first place - it was basically stuck in the resistant stage to begin with. all it needed was the metformin to "jolt" it into the correct position, unsticking the gears, so to speak, and ungumming the works.
i get not wanting to ask others to solve your problems for you, really i do. it's part of american culture. being tough and self sufficient and all that. but in the end, it's just toxic masculinity, and i've come to realize that true strength is learning that we can only do so much alone, and that all my accomplishments were never truly all mine to begin with - it was all built on the foundation of those who came before me, problems that were solved for me, whether i wanted them to or not. the roof over my head, designed by ancient architects and the private property set by ancient rules made up by ancient politicians, corrupt or not. the food given to my by my parents, whether i love them or hate them. the safety provided for me by policemen, whether all cops are bad or not. the job that i go to for paying my rent, my wages earned by customers who buy groceries at my store, whether their great people or complete fools or both at once! no matter what i do, i cannot get away from being aided by others.
you are asking people to listen to you, yet not have to listen to them if you want to be a savior to humanity. i'm afraid it's not so simple as that. you cannot be a savior of humanity if you do not understand humanity. to save humanity, you must be part of it. you must both listen to them, as well as have them listen to you. it must be a two way communication, a sharing among equals.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27098589 - 12/20/20 12:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Outerbass said: Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think sometimes it's nice to just be understood by another person, I don't even think we need that much validation.
And we're just bros talking about life from different walks of life, no harm no foul. No offense taken, none given.
I do think McKenna did the right thing moving to Hawaii. I like that. I like taking action. I didn't look at my gardening as a political statement or intellectual vanity, it just seemed like the most obvious thing to do, and have been surprised nobody else sees it that way. However consequences do flow from our decisions, our actions and inactions.
It was too bad he got cancer. I would hope the answer to cancer was indeed in the botanicals and the plants. Even though he couldn't find it, hopefully it is in there,
McKenna was right about everything, essentially, minus his Time Wave Zero program because that was in all honesty way outside his scope as an anthropologist/botanist, which is fine.
I always say McKenna found the limit for how much pot a person can smoke, medicine just hasn't caught up. His brother insists Terence smoked more weed than anybody, ever, but never says how much that quantity actually is. Was he ripping half a zip a day or something? I remember McKenna said something like "14-20 joints a day" in a lecture.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27098675 - 12/20/20 02:20 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Psion said: well, metformin basically is just a drug that resets the body's sensitivity to insulin, making it act like it did in it's younger days. i guess the problem with me is that i never had that sensitivity in the first place - it was basically stuck in the resistant stage to begin with. all it needed was the metformin to "jolt" it into the correct position, unsticking the gears, so to speak, and ungumming the works.
i get not wanting to ask others to solve your problems for you, really i do. it's part of american culture. being tough and self sufficient and all that. but in the end, it's just toxic masculinity, and i've come to realize that true strength is learning that we can only do so much alone, and that all my accomplishments were never truly all mine to begin with - it was all built on the foundation of those who came before me, problems that were solved for me, whether i wanted them to or not. the roof over my head, designed by ancient architects and the private property set by ancient rules made up by ancient politicians, corrupt or not. the food given to my by my parents, whether i love them or hate them. the safety provided for me by policemen, whether all cops are bad or not. the job that i go to for paying my rent, my wages earned by customers who buy groceries at my store, whether their great people or complete fools or both at once! no matter what i do, i cannot get away from being aided by others.
you are asking people to listen to you, yet not have to listen to them if you want to be a savior to humanity. i'm afraid it's not so simple as that. you cannot be a savior of humanity if you do not understand humanity. to save humanity, you must be part of it. you must both listen to them, as well as have them listen to you. it must be a two way communication, a sharing among equals.
Lol I'm getting a lot of judgment from your posts, and reading into things that aren't there.
The stats say that in America you will either die a horrible death by cancer, diabetes or heart disease, you will likely become impotent and get alzheimers along the way, and all the science points to the food supply, and you can use science to trace that all the way back to failing soils. Now, most Americans seem ok with this as their fate, but not me. I will not die that way. I will die healthy and happy. I struggled with an excess 40 lbs for almost 10 years, but garden science showed me how to lose that weight and achieve the best health of my life.
I love science and science has guided to all my conclusions. I'm an electrical engineer by education. Science has been a boon to me, and I love it.
My toxic masculinity allowed me to retire wealthy by the age of 40, have probably the 3rd best garden in the world among so many other accomplishments. I have solved so many of my problems using toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity gave us computers, the internet, roads, dams, automobiles and the modern age you seem to like.
And I'm not really asking people to listen to me, not anymore. I've found people hold onto their vices and self destructive behavior to the grave. I've learned to let them go. You have to let Darwin do his work sometimes.
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Psion
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27098691 - 12/20/20 02:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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except darwin got it wrong with survival of the fittest. evolution is about cooperation. by learning to cooperate with other individuals, it allows for more opportunities to evolve, more wiggle room to experiment with evolving, and thus more interesting possibilities with evolution. cooperation between mitochondria and a single cell allowed multicellular organisms to arise. huddling for warmth allowed mice to conserve calories, allowing higher survival rates and more experimentation with types of fur, leading to improved insulation - leading to yet more adaptation opportunities.
just sayin. evolution is about survival of the friendliest.
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Amanita86
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
#27098742 - 12/20/20 04:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I saw a crocodile rip the face off a zebra the other day.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Amanita86]
#27098796 - 12/20/20 05:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Darwin created pack animals, with strict hierarchies, where the lead male gets to breed all the females. You could say evolution created toxic masculinity. I'm not saying I endorse that, I'm just saying if you appeal to nature you have to appeal to all of nature.
Almost all species are now considered to be extinct. I assume they were all working together.
Edited by Outerbass (12/20/20 06:06 AM)
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anatomality
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27098801 - 12/20/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, will you try mushrooms? Because would recommend/10, going on how you post.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: anatomality]
#27098805 - 12/20/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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So far no. I didn't understand that last sentence
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anatomality
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27098818 - 12/20/20 06:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Outerbass said: So far no. I didn't understand that last sentence
Well, you 'have all the answers'. The way you post is just... like sheesh man.
I think mushrooms would be great for a person like you, however it may be very uncomfortable. You will loose reality, and be confronted to the truth of yourself.
You'll get to realize that you know very little about many things, and that is a beautiful thing. Someone you seems to have a very firm and rigid belief system, based on knowledge and facts. How would you feel if suddenly everything you knew was no longer certain? Or if everything you knew no longer felt as true? Probably uncomfortable.
As a skeptic, you stand to gain a lot. But I don't think you'll find it easy.
*I'll even add a bit more. You seem to have a lot to prove, and a large ego. The ego does crazy things when threatened. Mushrooms will humble you, and you will gain acceptance and flexibility. Less ego is a great thing, more room for your true self to emerge.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
Edited by anatomality (12/20/20 06:25 AM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: anatomality]
#27098828 - 12/20/20 06:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Lol the way some of you talk reminds me of the Borg.
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anatomality
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27098840 - 12/20/20 06:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Outerbass said: Lol the way some of you talk reminds me of the Borg.
That's what I though. You'll have to accept that you know nothing of the psychedelic experience, and never will. No amount of research will change this.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: anatomality]
#27098846 - 12/20/20 06:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I do know almost nothing of the psychedelic experience, I stated that at the outset. I have talked to dozens of people about, and listened to hundred more, so my knowledge is limited to that only. I understand dreams come from DMT, so I guess I know that also, as I dream regularly. I actually keep a dream journal. When I wake up I jot down as much as I can. I am currently charting a correlation between past dreams and deja vu in the present. My hypothesis is that my dreams are a forecast of the future. I don't know if this is true, if it is DMT, or something else.
However my main point of curiosity, is evaluating Shamanic culture of the past and present. I'm asking those of you in the know if I'm missing something, because Shamanic cultures of the past and present don't live up to the McKenna level hype. There is nothing of those cultures that seem remotely attractive. So what am I missing.
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jomanda1990
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27098850 - 12/20/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Outerbass said: I now think you are not in touch with nature if you aren't growing your own plants, and doing a lot of camping.
Not everyone can live in a large house anyway, thanks to the overpopulaton and greed we live surrounded by. People have friends and family ties and cannot or are not willing to say "fuck it" and leave to the countryside. In poorer countries, like where I am, you are basically a slave to the system unless you happened to be in a favored position from birth (exceptions exist, of course). Forget about owning a large piece of land, or even having the time to spend in nature comfortably (you'll get robbed in an instant).
In the end, it all comes to your personal definititon of "a life best lived" and not the psychedelic experience itself. A hardcore buddhist would be happy to have a place to meditate as much as they wanted to everyday. A tribesman would be happy to have food and shelter and fullfil their role in their community, which they'd correcly view as an extension of themselves.
McKenna said he'd like to move to the woods, ok, big deal. He's one human being. His ideas about the psychedelic experience don't have to define what the experience means TO YOU or anyone else. The only way you could ever grasp it is by having one in the first place. If you want other, less activism-related points of view of the experience, you could read Huxley, Alan Watts, Albert Hoffman, and so on.
There's also the fact that psychedelics were an incredibly effective tool for psychiatry during the time they were allowed. Do you know anything about this? They had a remarkable effectiveness for treating addictions and depression. It's not about moving to the jungle for everyone. Some benefit in other ways. Whereas some completely abuse them and miss the point, which is the small subset you were referring to in your opening post.
You're just missing out on the amazing properties of the human brain to experience differently under the effect of psychoactive. It's something you can flat out really enjoy, like watching a sunset or laying on a beach. And you're missing out based on prejudice and fear
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InnerWisdom


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27098855 - 12/20/20 07:10 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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What do you actually know about what the shamans do or did? I haven't gotten the impression from McKenna that he promoted the idea of going back to shamanic cultures of the past, but rather to use their methods for problem solving and transcendental experiences - psychedelics. McKenna was all about taking the dose in order to get back to subjective experience of the transcendent other directly. "Five dried grams in silent darkness is where the pedal meets the metal" he said. You might spend your whole life trying to get there through other means, but if a psychedelic drug does it reliably why bother?
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jomanda1990
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 2
#27098859 - 12/20/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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InnerWisdom said: What do you actually know about what the shamans do or did? I haven't gotten the impression from McKenna that he promoted the idea of going back to shamanic cultures of the past, but rather to use their methods for problem solving and transcendental experiences - psychedelics.
This, 100%.
Quote:
Outerbass said: However my main point of curiosity, is evaluating Shamanic culture of the past and present. I'm asking those of you in the know if I'm missing something, because Shamanic cultures of the past and present don't live up to the McKenna level hype. There is nothing of those cultures that seem remotely attractive. So what am I missing.
What is there to evaluate? You are posing a question about anthropology and philosophy, not about the psychedelic experience. The Aztecs had psychedelics, and they are widely regarded as a brutally violent civilization in many ways, from warfarign to human sacrifices. Meanwhile, other shamanistic tribes were very peaceful and lived in harmony with their surroundings. How that is "just meh" to you is beyond my comprehension, especially considering you know the extent of the damage we've caused to ecosystems.
Psychedelics are not a silver bullet. This forum itself is a massive example of that, as people still deal with real world problems and still have doubts, questions, and fears. You're missing the point just because you listened to someone else's perspective. There's no "credentials" here, you don't have to believe anybody more based solely on how much more acid/shrooms they took throughout their lives, even tribal shamans.
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anatomality
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 2
#27098875 - 12/20/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You seem quite unhappy, consumed with ideas about how things should be.
I mean, how can you be so sure of yourself. What if there IS no correct way of being. What if, even if you do everything absolutely right, life is still tragic and you and everyone you know will get sick and die. There is no shield, you cannot reason your way out of it.
Let me ask you this, what brought you here. Are you looking for validation? Do you want praise for your Ideas? A reason to break your straight edge rule? I mean, being absolute and rigid has brought you this far correct?
Here you are, congratulations on being you. Straight edge unhappy gardener who thinks the whole world is going to shit. Do you hold other people to a high standard? Are you fun to be around?
I think the worst part of being intelligent is convincing yourself of some 'certainties'. You are tricking yourself into unhappiness it seems. There a irreconcilable differences in how the world IS, and how you think it SHOULD be.
If anything, mushrooms help you practice acceptance and peace. Ego death is acceptance of what is.
I think this might be of interest for you : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind#:~:text=8%20.P65%202018-,How%20to%20Change%20Your%20Mind%3A%20What%20the%20New%20Science%20of,New%20York%20Times%20best%2Dseller.
I wish you the best gardener man, I love passionate people. Try being flexible though.
*I keep coming back to this. I wanted to add that there is nothing wrong with remaining who you are. You are correct in thinking that some doors cannot be closed after they are opened. I personally advocate for exploration and openness, but it may not be for you. Like I said, I think it would be very difficult for you.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
Edited by anatomality (12/21/20 05:14 AM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27099850 - 12/20/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: What do you actually know about what the shamans do or did? I haven't gotten the impression from McKenna that he promoted the idea of going back to shamanic cultures of the past, but rather to use their methods for problem solving and transcendental experiences - psychedelics. McKenna was all about taking the dose in order to get back to subjective experience of the transcendent other directly. "Five dried grams in silent darkness is where the pedal meets the metal" he said. You might spend your whole life trying to get there through other means, but if a psychedelic drug does it reliably why bother?
Here I think is the example, McKenna seems straightforward in his manifesto. Shamanic culture is the way out and forward.
So this is a huge claim. He spent his life pursuing this dream, but it appears to be just another fantasy.
This doesn't seem like the way out of anything.
Now, you might like this, but if you do the good news is you can move there tomorrow. One plane flight from paradise. There are expats all over the world, who find a way of life they like better than here.
Now, I am very dissatisfied with modern life too, that is in part why I am here. I don't like the couch potato computer tumor lifestyle. I limit my screen time to 1 hour per day, and I live a mostly agrarian life where I am outdoors about 12 hours per day. I am mostly retired at a young age so I have the time to build my paradise.
Interestingly McKenna and I are in agreement here. I'm building my own boat.
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jomanda1990
Ewewazos



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27100074 - 12/20/20 10:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't get your point. Your view of an ideal world differs from that of McKenna and from that of shamanic cultures. Congratulations? That has little to do with the psychedelic experience itself.
You also seem to be heavily prejudiced against "so-called" primitive cultures. Yet your proposed solution is what? Build a massive farm so that you can watch the rest of the world burn? Well, you should realize it would literlly be the first target of bandits/raiders once the world goes to shit. You may want to escape, but we're sadly in this together as a species.
And if you gave psychedelics even one chance instead of stroking your ego and being judgmental about ecofirendlier cultures, you'd likely understand where McKenna was coming from all along.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27100271 - 12/21/20 04:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ehh, I would say no, you guys are kind of contradicting yourself, saying the jungle people aren't the goal but they are sorta superior, and what not. If you guys thought it was so great you would be moving there. Very few think it's that great. Terrance would have stayed down there. I would have.
As I stated earlier, I'm not trying to save the world. Nobody is, so why should I try. I'm just trying to survive. I don't see very many people trying to even survive in America, almost everyone I know is satisfied being overweight and headed to a disease riddled painful death. They get mad at you if you suggest there might be an alternative.
When the bandits roam, they will pass over my garden. Modern Americans only consider things to be food if it comes in a box. My gardens will not even be considered food to them. Trust me, I tested this out.
My motives in questioning the claims of DMTers is no difference than your motives in questioning the claims of Catholic Church, or fill in the blank.
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27100294 - 12/21/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said: Ehh, I would say no, you guys are kind of contradicting yourself, saying the jungle people aren't the goal but they are sorta superior, and what not. If you guys thought it was so great you would be moving there. Very few think it's that great. Terrance would have stayed down there. I would have.
As I stated earlier, I'm not trying to save the world. Nobody is, so why should I try. I'm just trying to survive. I don't see very many people trying to even survive in America, almost everyone I know is satisfied being overweight and headed to a disease riddled painful death. They get mad at you if you suggest there might be an alternative.
When the bandits roam, they will pass over my garden. Modern Americans only consider things to be food if it comes in a box. My gardens will not even be considered food to them. Trust me, I tested this out.
My motives in questioning the claims of DMTers is no difference than your motives in questioning the claims of Catholic Church, or fill in the blank.
what an intelligent man.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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jomanda1990
Ewewazos



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27100365 - 12/21/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok brother it is clear to me you are not reading our responses carefully at all and/or may just want to win an internet discussion for kicks. Hope you have a fullfilling life either way. byebye
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: jomanda1990] 1
#27100991 - 12/21/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's good to be skeptical, i myself use skepticism, i'm more scientifically-minded and like to experiment, put things to the test, see what sticks, discern and judge for myself what's going on, but i am open and receptive to what comes my way on Psychedelics.
I can tell you, for me personally, i'm very sober/sane-minded, i have good judgement, i know what delusion is like, but for me personally, what i've encountered with Ayahuasca is no doubt real and authentic/original, and it's definitely not a delusion/illusion/hallucination.
Nobody you talk to, nothing you read or watch on the subject, will satisfy your curiosity or questions. You must do the experience, you must go there to know there. Don't let anyone tell you what these things are or do, see for yourself and draw your own conclusions. But, do not be so quick to conclude, put things to the test, deeply and thoroughly explore, give yourself a few years practicing with the tool before you really conclude what's going on. If you pursue the tool seriously, i'm sure you will be quite surprised. If you pursue the tool half-assed and don't really give it your full attention and you don't thoroughly and deeply explore it, you will get half-assed results and may not find what you're looking for. I can't tell you how many people i see online who are clueless about the depths of Psychedelics, even people who've "taken acid hundreds of times", they still don't get the point lol. The tool is only as good as the one who wields it, everything is there, it just depends on if you can manage to gain access to it.
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InnerWisdom


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Sabnock]
#27101045 - 12/21/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just grow them shrooms op and see for yourself what the fuss is about, if you are interested of course, which it now seems from this last page at least you aren't
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27226254 - 02/25/21 04:55 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: Just grow them shrooms op and see for yourself what the fuss is about, if you are interested of course, which it now seems from this last page at least you aren't
I said from the beginning I have no interest in taking psychedelics, I merely asked if the psychedelic ideology is what it is claimed, why haven't you all moved to south America. You guys haven't moved to South America because you don't believe what you are saying. If I thought the psychedelic experience is what McKenna says it is I would be in South America right now.
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InnerWisdom



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227256 - 02/26/21 09:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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LosTresOjos
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27227279 - 02/26/21 10:16 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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In order to understand the psychedelic experience one must have it happen if to them.
The irony is deep in this thread.
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InnerWisdom



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
#27227285 - 02/26/21 10:21 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychedelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227351 - 02/26/21 10:52 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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You can find out that we all are, very literally, connected. Hypotheses about how this works are varied, but this is a truth that I and many others here can confirm. We DO need more research. Not every time I have tripped, but a few, there has been markedly significant and later verifiable telepathy, sharing of consciousness. If that isn't worth finding out, I don't know what is.
Those verifiable instances aside, many have what they feel to be direct experiences of God/Universal Love that are healing.
Nearly all of my trips have resulted in insights that have become both spiritually and practically germaine and useful.
What I have come to discover for myself is that there is some kind of mechanism that we use in ordinary reality that maintains our usual understanding of reality. As you approach "answers" about the real nature of reality, these mechanisms kick in and set up roadblocks, much like our dreams incorporate disturbing sounds in order to protect our sleep and keep us asleep. Our waking ordinary reality protects us from "waking up" further. This is necessary in order to function in day to day life. Psychedelics may bypass these mechanisms and let us "wake up" to perceptions and possible truths beyond ordinary reality. So there are obstacles, when not on psychedelics, to understanding what happens during a trip. That is why your questions cannot be fully answered here. They may or may not be fully answerd if you do trip. If you do, I suggest having your questions in mind, and consider a set and setting that is not focused on getting high recreationally. I can imagine that somewhere during that trip, you would think of your questions and have to smile broadly, understanding what it is that people are saying.
Recent research into the default mode network shows that the psychedelics deactivate it to a large degree, allowing for exploration of alternative perceptions and ways in which our brains usually experience the world. The areas that light up on an fMRI of a tripping brain mirror the patterns of brain function in young children, suggesting that this explains the wonder we experience at new perceptions. Children need this sense of wonder to attend and learn about the world. I think we need it to learn more about the world and beyond.
BTW, I don't think I look like the people you talk about who have taken psychedelics. I, and I believe a good number of people here, are professional, responsible neatly groomed and quite well spoken. I'd say I find above average intelligence around here quite a bit.
Before psychedelics, people would have to essentially leave society, become monks or ascetics in order to get a glimpse of what we believe to be how our brains interpret the world and possibly what might be a "truer" reality, or at least more of the story than we usually have. Now, however, we can take just a few hours, even if we have work the next day, to explore our minds and what seems to be the nature of the universe, as well as some entertaining feelings and hallucinations. The most relevant, striking and powerful trips I have had, however, were not focused on the "eye candy" at all. They were about myself, myself in relation to others and to my purpose(s) in life.
Namaste
Edited by Neurotech (02/26/21 11:01 AM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
#27227400 - 02/26/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LosTresOjos said: In order to understand the psychedelic experience one must have it happen if to them.
The irony is deep in this thread.
I'm literally not trying to understand the psychedelic experience.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27227404 - 02/26/21 11:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
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LosTresOjos
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227412 - 02/26/21 11:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
LosTresOjos said: In order to understand the psychedelic experience one must have it happen if to them. T The irony is deep in this thread.
I'm literally not trying to understand the psychedelic experience.
Your are being stupid. You are asking questions about the experience. Or at least musing about it. You could answer all of your questions with a trip. Regardless, you are like a scared child in a corner.
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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227476 - 02/26/21 12:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2054/3/3/article-p280.xml
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InnerWisdom



Registered: 08/09/19
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227731 - 02/26/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
So talking about tripping and psychedelics is ideology? What is that ideology i forgot your definition, oh yeah you never gave it...
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Questions about the psychedelic experience [Re: Neurotech]
#27227845 - 02/26/21 03:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Neurotech said: What I have come to discover for myself is that there is some kind of mechanism that we use in ordinary reality that maintains our usual understanding of reality. As you approach "answers" about the real nature of reality, these mechanisms kick in and set up roadblocks, much like our dreams incorporate disturbing sounds in order to protect our sleep and keep us asleep. Our waking ordinary reality protects us from "waking up" further. This is necessary in order to function in day to day life. Psychedelics may bypass these mechanisms and let us "wake up" to perceptions and possible truths beyond ordinary reality. So there are obstacles, when not on psychedelics, to understanding what happens during a trip. That is why your questions cannot be fully answered here. They may or may not be fully answerd if you do trip. If you do, I suggest having your questions in mind, and consider a set and setting that is not focused on getting high recreationally. I can imagine that somewhere during that trip, you would think of your questions and have to smile broadly, understanding what it is that people are saying.
And well said too.
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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rickomalley238
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27229645 - 02/27/21 06:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
It sounds to me like you might be attempting to convince yourself that psychedelics are "baloney" in order to ward off curiosity and FOMO.
Understand that whatever digging you are doing or conclusions you are arriving at are quite arbitrary.
Do them, or don't, but know what you don't know and don't attempt to know what you cannot without doing them.
Peace and good luck with your research.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: rickomalley238]
#27229766 - 02/27/21 08:10 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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the research is how annoyed he can make people. has a little book and says anything.
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_ 🧠 _
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: rickomalley238]
#27229997 - 02/28/21 12:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
rickomalley238 said:
It sounds to me like you might be attempting to convince yourself that psychedelics are "baloney" in order to ward off curiosity and FOMO.
Understand that whatever digging you are doing or conclusions you are arriving at are quite arbitrary.
Do them, or don't, but know what you don't know and don't attempt to know what you cannot without doing them.
Peace and good luck with your research.
That's a lot of back flipping. It could be that since I have to repeat my self over and over again and nobody addresses the central question that I am not the one with the problem.
If psychedelia held the answers to all the problems, Rogan, Stamets, McKenna and most of you would have moved to South America by now and moved into the jungle. But you haven't. I have some guesses why.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
#27229999 - 02/28/21 12:42 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LosTresOjos said: Your are being stupid. You are asking questions about the experience. Or at least musing about it. You could answer all of your questions with a trip. Regardless, you are like a scared child in a corner.
I'm literally asking why if psychedelics are all they are cracked up to be why you guys haven't all moved to South America and moved in with a Shamanist tribe. McKenna has said over and over again that is the human ideal, but he turned his back on it and never lived there even though he could have.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27230067 - 02/28/21 03:13 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I drove a Honda for years, never stepped a foot in Japan. It served it’s purpose.
You are struggling because you have no anything in your head to play ruler for what ideas and experiences you are seeing get tossed around here. That would be my guess. Since that is a sort of ‘blind spot’ for you, none of these answers will get your brain to click the “ok” of understanding.
So a person will either be humble in the understanding of their lack of understanding or, they won’t. Tends to be how it works out..
--------------------
Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Amanita86]
#27230176 - 02/28/21 06:49 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Brb moving to Amazonian tribe because mushrooms.
Anything less than this is a corruption to my soul.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
Edited by anatomality (02/28/21 06:50 AM)
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rickomalley238
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27230341 - 02/28/21 09:32 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
rickomalley238 said:
It sounds to me like you might be attempting to convince yourself that psychedelics are "baloney" in order to ward off curiosity and FOMO.
Understand that whatever digging you are doing or conclusions you are arriving at are quite arbitrary.
Do them, or don't, but know what you don't know and don't attempt to know what you cannot without doing them.
Peace and good luck with your research.
That's a lot of back flipping. It could be that since I have to repeat my self over and over again and nobody addresses the central question that I am not the one with the problem.
If psychedelia held the answers to all the problems, Rogan, Stamets, McKenna and most of you would have moved to South America by now and moved into the jungle. But you haven't. I have some guesses why.
I like mushrooms and indulge in them ~once a year for spiritual and healing purpose. I don't think they hold the answers to "all my problems," I think they help reframe my mindset to choose what "problems" I'm to give a fuck about and work on, and which I'm to not. We all have problems; it's part of being human.
As to your last question on why we haven't all moved to the South American jungle, I'm not sure this question even requires answering..
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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27230386 - 02/28/21 10:13 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
InnerWisdom said: Just grow them shrooms op and see for yourself what the fuss is about, if you are interested of course, which it now seems from this last page at least you aren't
I said from the beginning I have no interest in taking psychedelics, I merely asked if the psychedelic ideology is what it is claimed, why haven't you all moved to south America. You guys haven't moved to South America because you don't believe what you are saying. If I thought the psychedelic experience is what McKenna says it is I would be in South America right now.
Well McKenna certainly believed it (I think personally that his conclusions took a leap from his facts) and he didn't stay in South America. Just because, for instance, you love physics doesn't mean you stay in physics class. You go and apply it in your life or work.
Besides that, you sure do sound interested. Maybe you worry that if it is real you will have to move to South America? lol. I am being facetious, but clearly you worry that you would be changed forever. You do not have to become or look like your tripping friends. And the people who devote themselves to a life that is entirely about what is beyond this life are, I believe, making a mistake. The lessons learned are for this life (and beyond). People who leave society after a spiritual experience may be escaping life or may be interpreting their insights too strictly.
Let me share an early formative experience and insight that developed over the course of three solo trips on blotter when I was 15 in 1976. I found that I could, in my mind, totally understand the perspective and point of view of anyone I could think of. This scared the hell out of me at 15, as this is when you are putting your life in gear and making decisions about your beliefs. It resulted in the idea that if everyone is right, that Nothing Matters. I remember that the phrase running through my head was "If nothing matters, I should just sit in a corner and do nothing". This could have derailed my life. It was in the latter two trips of that series that I realized that I was Making It Matter that Nothing Matters. I decided that rather than make a point about showing hat the subjectivity in our experiences is such that its all nonsense, that the point in life is to pick a game and play it as fully as I could. Have the experiences that life offers. My own "game" includes values like empathy, being kind, honest, etc. I graduated HS, went to college, got a doctorate, got a suburban home, now have three grown and married children and a reasonably successful professional career and here I am, using psychedelics to look at the present and future of my life.
So what I think is that you are interested, but afraid of hitting a point of no return that will alienate you from your life and loved ones. I found quite the opposite. I do not need to go to South America. But you know, I do really want to see the Amazon rainforest someday. Maybe after this pandemic.
Namaste
Edited by Neurotech (02/28/21 10:18 AM)
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LosTresOjos
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27230456 - 02/28/21 11:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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psychedelics do not promote mindless followers. Grow some balls.
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Aldebaran
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27236679 - 03/04/21 10:02 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
'm literally asking why if psychedelics are all they are cracked up to be why you guys haven't all moved to South America and moved in with a Shamanist tribe. McKenna has said over and over again that is the human ideal, but he turned his back on it and never lived there even though he could have.
McKenna is a very good speaker, but his ideas are quite "far out" and he's not some kind of official spokesman for everyone who takes psychedelics. Not everyone who takes psychedelics is heavily into shamanic culture.
Personally, I started tripping with a materialist, athiest mindset and that hasn't fundamentally changed. What it has changed is my receptivity to other ideas that conflict with this. I've never tried DMT, but mushrooms have delivered pretty much everything I could reasonably expect from a psychedelic experience - beautiful visual imagery, mystical experiences, incredible journeys into the mind that I would never have believed possible.
If you go through life feeling as though you are missing something, that you long for something magical beyond everyday experience, I think psychedelics provide this. A trip will leave you where you started and is not a magic bullet for solving problems in the real world, but it can inspire you to do things and think in new ways.
There is a certain culture that surrounds psychedelics, but how much you want to get into that more spiritual side of things is a personal choice. In a similar way, listening to heavy metal music isn't going to automatically cause you to grow your hair long, wear black, ride a Harley Davidson and get tattooed. The psychedelic experience at higher doses is extremely powerful and should not be underestimated - it's like having your reality dismantled and rebuilt - but it's up to you what you take away from it.
For a balanced look at why people are drawn to shamanic ceremonies in South America, a youtube channel I enjoy is Adeptus Psychonautica. Here is someone with an interest in traditional ayahuasca ceremonies and so on, who still lives and works in Europe and has a no-bullshit attitude which doesn't really fit the stereotype of the "trippy hippy." In this context the ceremonies are seen as a useful therapeutic tool, as "plant medicines" which are of personal benefit whether you are working 9-5 in a city job or living in a hut in Peru.
Personally I'm more into psychedelics as a form of expression - I like to write and listen to music when I'm tripping. You can take psychedelics (or not) in your own way for your own reasons without having to take too much notice of other people.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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The Mycologist
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27236740 - 03/04/21 10:34 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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OP have you ever got any significance or lessons from your dreams.
Is that experience invalid because it was a dream. It did happen to you and you can remember so how is that different from all of life.
Psychs allow your brain to think differently which has its own inherent value. But at the higher levels it can cause mystical feelings and experiences. Just cause they were caused by the shroom doesn't mean mystical shit didn't just happen to you.
Individual perspective is important, even in science, just look at the theory of relativity.
-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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The Mycologist
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: The Mycologist]
#27236749 - 03/04/21 10:36 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Psychs are pretty individual if you ask me. The tribe stuff is antiquated imho.
The mind is like a pool of water, in order to learn about its properties you have to perturb it.
-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: The Mycologist]
#27238692 - 03/05/21 12:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why we don't all go to South America? Why should we? You have probably been on a vacation somewhere you loved. Why didn't you stay? People get benefit from psychotherapy - why don't they stay there all week?
You came back from vacation refreshed and ready to get back to your life. You practice what you learn in therapy the other 167 hours a week.
You are still wondering? Why do you think all these people trip? Not the recreational trippers, rather the spiritual/problem-solving ones? What is your belief? That all are deluded?
As others have said here, you can't understand without the experience. Ever try explaining what sex feels like to someone who never had an orgasm? Can you explain what a color looks like to someone born blind?
Edited by Neurotech (03/05/21 12:45 PM)
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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Neurotech]
#27238709 - 03/05/21 12:52 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think you are afraid that if you trip, it will indeed change you permanently and that you would want to move to the jungle. You are afraid to experience the unknown. I suspect you are someone who really stands by their beliefs and fear that you would leave your normal life and have to become an ascetic or something. In my opinion, shrooms could help you sort that out (unless you resist the trip - that can go badly, or uselessly). You have to trust (and this seems an issue perhaps) that the shrooms (rather you on shrooms) will assess what you are ready for, and can help you see how to integrate the life you care about with new spiritual awareness and insights. On more intense trips this resistance and fear is the biggest challenge for most of us. When you surrender to the experience, all anxiety goes away and the lessons and fun begin. You have nothing to fear but fear itself is true.
Edited by Neurotech (03/05/21 12:53 PM)
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The Mycologist
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Neurotech]
#27242831 - 03/08/21 07:51 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Because I bring South America to my living room.
I dont think there is that much difference between us "recreational" trippers and shamanic ones, just a different title.
-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: The Mycologist]
#27242961 - 03/08/21 09:33 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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> "I dont think there is that much difference between us "recreational" trippers and shamanic ones, just a different title."
I am surprised. I have known people who refer to tripping as "getting F'd up", and who tend to combine with less than entheogenic substances.
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The Mycologist
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Neurotech]
#27243244 - 03/08/21 12:28 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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They will get a hard lesson one day.
-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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rickomalley238
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: The Mycologist] 1
#27243918 - 03/08/21 07:30 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Mycologist said: They will get a hard lesson one day.
Yup. Do mushrooms without listening to your intuition will result in a pricey, pricey lesson; oftentimes one which you could not have prior fathomed to be near as difficult, life changing, and soul-forging as it is.
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