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jomanda1990
Ewewazos



Registered: 05/15/18
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 2
#27098859 - 12/20/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: What do you actually know about what the shamans do or did? I haven't gotten the impression from McKenna that he promoted the idea of going back to shamanic cultures of the past, but rather to use their methods for problem solving and transcendental experiences - psychedelics.
This, 100%.
Quote:
Outerbass said: However my main point of curiosity, is evaluating Shamanic culture of the past and present. I'm asking those of you in the know if I'm missing something, because Shamanic cultures of the past and present don't live up to the McKenna level hype. There is nothing of those cultures that seem remotely attractive. So what am I missing.
What is there to evaluate? You are posing a question about anthropology and philosophy, not about the psychedelic experience. The Aztecs had psychedelics, and they are widely regarded as a brutally violent civilization in many ways, from warfarign to human sacrifices. Meanwhile, other shamanistic tribes were very peaceful and lived in harmony with their surroundings. How that is "just meh" to you is beyond my comprehension, especially considering you know the extent of the damage we've caused to ecosystems.
Psychedelics are not a silver bullet. This forum itself is a massive example of that, as people still deal with real world problems and still have doubts, questions, and fears. You're missing the point just because you listened to someone else's perspective. There's no "credentials" here, you don't have to believe anybody more based solely on how much more acid/shrooms they took throughout their lives, even tribal shamans.
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 2
#27098875 - 12/20/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You seem quite unhappy, consumed with ideas about how things should be.
I mean, how can you be so sure of yourself. What if there IS no correct way of being. What if, even if you do everything absolutely right, life is still tragic and you and everyone you know will get sick and die. There is no shield, you cannot reason your way out of it.
Let me ask you this, what brought you here. Are you looking for validation? Do you want praise for your Ideas? A reason to break your straight edge rule? I mean, being absolute and rigid has brought you this far correct?
Here you are, congratulations on being you. Straight edge unhappy gardener who thinks the whole world is going to shit. Do you hold other people to a high standard? Are you fun to be around?
I think the worst part of being intelligent is convincing yourself of some 'certainties'. You are tricking yourself into unhappiness it seems. There a irreconcilable differences in how the world IS, and how you think it SHOULD be.
If anything, mushrooms help you practice acceptance and peace. Ego death is acceptance of what is.
I think this might be of interest for you : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind#:~:text=8%20.P65%202018-,How%20to%20Change%20Your%20Mind%3A%20What%20the%20New%20Science%20of,New%20York%20Times%20best%2Dseller.
I wish you the best gardener man, I love passionate people. Try being flexible though.
*I keep coming back to this. I wanted to add that there is nothing wrong with remaining who you are. You are correct in thinking that some doors cannot be closed after they are opened. I personally advocate for exploration and openness, but it may not be for you. Like I said, I think it would be very difficult for you.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
Edited by anatomality (12/21/20 05:14 AM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27099850 - 12/20/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: What do you actually know about what the shamans do or did? I haven't gotten the impression from McKenna that he promoted the idea of going back to shamanic cultures of the past, but rather to use their methods for problem solving and transcendental experiences - psychedelics. McKenna was all about taking the dose in order to get back to subjective experience of the transcendent other directly. "Five dried grams in silent darkness is where the pedal meets the metal" he said. You might spend your whole life trying to get there through other means, but if a psychedelic drug does it reliably why bother?
Here I think is the example, McKenna seems straightforward in his manifesto. Shamanic culture is the way out and forward.
So this is a huge claim. He spent his life pursuing this dream, but it appears to be just another fantasy.
This doesn't seem like the way out of anything.
Now, you might like this, but if you do the good news is you can move there tomorrow. One plane flight from paradise. There are expats all over the world, who find a way of life they like better than here.
Now, I am very dissatisfied with modern life too, that is in part why I am here. I don't like the couch potato computer tumor lifestyle. I limit my screen time to 1 hour per day, and I live a mostly agrarian life where I am outdoors about 12 hours per day. I am mostly retired at a young age so I have the time to build my paradise.
Interestingly McKenna and I are in agreement here. I'm building my own boat.
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jomanda1990
Ewewazos



Registered: 05/15/18
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27100074 - 12/20/20 10:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't get your point. Your view of an ideal world differs from that of McKenna and from that of shamanic cultures. Congratulations? That has little to do with the psychedelic experience itself.
You also seem to be heavily prejudiced against "so-called" primitive cultures. Yet your proposed solution is what? Build a massive farm so that you can watch the rest of the world burn? Well, you should realize it would literlly be the first target of bandits/raiders once the world goes to shit. You may want to escape, but we're sadly in this together as a species.
And if you gave psychedelics even one chance instead of stroking your ego and being judgmental about ecofirendlier cultures, you'd likely understand where McKenna was coming from all along.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27100271 - 12/21/20 04:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ehh, I would say no, you guys are kind of contradicting yourself, saying the jungle people aren't the goal but they are sorta superior, and what not. If you guys thought it was so great you would be moving there. Very few think it's that great. Terrance would have stayed down there. I would have.
As I stated earlier, I'm not trying to save the world. Nobody is, so why should I try. I'm just trying to survive. I don't see very many people trying to even survive in America, almost everyone I know is satisfied being overweight and headed to a disease riddled painful death. They get mad at you if you suggest there might be an alternative.
When the bandits roam, they will pass over my garden. Modern Americans only consider things to be food if it comes in a box. My gardens will not even be considered food to them. Trust me, I tested this out.
My motives in questioning the claims of DMTers is no difference than your motives in questioning the claims of Catholic Church, or fill in the blank.
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27100294 - 12/21/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said: Ehh, I would say no, you guys are kind of contradicting yourself, saying the jungle people aren't the goal but they are sorta superior, and what not. If you guys thought it was so great you would be moving there. Very few think it's that great. Terrance would have stayed down there. I would have.
As I stated earlier, I'm not trying to save the world. Nobody is, so why should I try. I'm just trying to survive. I don't see very many people trying to even survive in America, almost everyone I know is satisfied being overweight and headed to a disease riddled painful death. They get mad at you if you suggest there might be an alternative.
When the bandits roam, they will pass over my garden. Modern Americans only consider things to be food if it comes in a box. My gardens will not even be considered food to them. Trust me, I tested this out.
My motives in questioning the claims of DMTers is no difference than your motives in questioning the claims of Catholic Church, or fill in the blank.
what an intelligent man.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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jomanda1990
Ewewazos



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27100365 - 12/21/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok brother it is clear to me you are not reading our responses carefully at all and/or may just want to win an internet discussion for kicks. Hope you have a fullfilling life either way. byebye
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: jomanda1990] 1
#27100991 - 12/21/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's good to be skeptical, i myself use skepticism, i'm more scientifically-minded and like to experiment, put things to the test, see what sticks, discern and judge for myself what's going on, but i am open and receptive to what comes my way on Psychedelics.
I can tell you, for me personally, i'm very sober/sane-minded, i have good judgement, i know what delusion is like, but for me personally, what i've encountered with Ayahuasca is no doubt real and authentic/original, and it's definitely not a delusion/illusion/hallucination.
Nobody you talk to, nothing you read or watch on the subject, will satisfy your curiosity or questions. You must do the experience, you must go there to know there. Don't let anyone tell you what these things are or do, see for yourself and draw your own conclusions. But, do not be so quick to conclude, put things to the test, deeply and thoroughly explore, give yourself a few years practicing with the tool before you really conclude what's going on. If you pursue the tool seriously, i'm sure you will be quite surprised. If you pursue the tool half-assed and don't really give it your full attention and you don't thoroughly and deeply explore it, you will get half-assed results and may not find what you're looking for. I can't tell you how many people i see online who are clueless about the depths of Psychedelics, even people who've "taken acid hundreds of times", they still don't get the point lol. The tool is only as good as the one who wields it, everything is there, it just depends on if you can manage to gain access to it.
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InnerWisdom


Registered: 08/09/19
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Sabnock]
#27101045 - 12/21/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just grow them shrooms op and see for yourself what the fuss is about, if you are interested of course, which it now seems from this last page at least you aren't
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27226254 - 02/25/21 04:55 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: Just grow them shrooms op and see for yourself what the fuss is about, if you are interested of course, which it now seems from this last page at least you aren't
I said from the beginning I have no interest in taking psychedelics, I merely asked if the psychedelic ideology is what it is claimed, why haven't you all moved to south America. You guys haven't moved to South America because you don't believe what you are saying. If I thought the psychedelic experience is what McKenna says it is I would be in South America right now.
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InnerWisdom



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227256 - 02/26/21 09:57 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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LosTresOjos
Humano

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] 1
#27227279 - 02/26/21 10:16 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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In order to understand the psychedelic experience one must have it happen if to them.
The irony is deep in this thread.
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InnerWisdom



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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
#27227285 - 02/26/21 10:21 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychedelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227351 - 02/26/21 10:52 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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You can find out that we all are, very literally, connected. Hypotheses about how this works are varied, but this is a truth that I and many others here can confirm. We DO need more research. Not every time I have tripped, but a few, there has been markedly significant and later verifiable telepathy, sharing of consciousness. If that isn't worth finding out, I don't know what is.
Those verifiable instances aside, many have what they feel to be direct experiences of God/Universal Love that are healing.
Nearly all of my trips have resulted in insights that have become both spiritually and practically germaine and useful.
What I have come to discover for myself is that there is some kind of mechanism that we use in ordinary reality that maintains our usual understanding of reality. As you approach "answers" about the real nature of reality, these mechanisms kick in and set up roadblocks, much like our dreams incorporate disturbing sounds in order to protect our sleep and keep us asleep. Our waking ordinary reality protects us from "waking up" further. This is necessary in order to function in day to day life. Psychedelics may bypass these mechanisms and let us "wake up" to perceptions and possible truths beyond ordinary reality. So there are obstacles, when not on psychedelics, to understanding what happens during a trip. That is why your questions cannot be fully answered here. They may or may not be fully answerd if you do trip. If you do, I suggest having your questions in mind, and consider a set and setting that is not focused on getting high recreationally. I can imagine that somewhere during that trip, you would think of your questions and have to smile broadly, understanding what it is that people are saying.
Recent research into the default mode network shows that the psychedelics deactivate it to a large degree, allowing for exploration of alternative perceptions and ways in which our brains usually experience the world. The areas that light up on an fMRI of a tripping brain mirror the patterns of brain function in young children, suggesting that this explains the wonder we experience at new perceptions. Children need this sense of wonder to attend and learn about the world. I think we need it to learn more about the world and beyond.
BTW, I don't think I look like the people you talk about who have taken psychedelics. I, and I believe a good number of people here, are professional, responsible neatly groomed and quite well spoken. I'd say I find above average intelligence around here quite a bit.
Before psychedelics, people would have to essentially leave society, become monks or ascetics in order to get a glimpse of what we believe to be how our brains interpret the world and possibly what might be a "truer" reality, or at least more of the story than we usually have. Now, however, we can take just a few hours, even if we have work the next day, to explore our minds and what seems to be the nature of the universe, as well as some entertaining feelings and hallucinations. The most relevant, striking and powerful trips I have had, however, were not focused on the "eye candy" at all. They were about myself, myself in relation to others and to my purpose(s) in life.
Namaste
Edited by Neurotech (02/26/21 11:01 AM)
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: LosTresOjos]
#27227400 - 02/26/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LosTresOjos said: In order to understand the psychedelic experience one must have it happen if to them.
The irony is deep in this thread.
I'm literally not trying to understand the psychedelic experience.
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Outerbass
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27227404 - 02/26/21 11:29 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
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LosTresOjos
Humano

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227412 - 02/26/21 11:39 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
LosTresOjos said: In order to understand the psychedelic experience one must have it happen if to them. T The irony is deep in this thread.
I'm literally not trying to understand the psychedelic experience.
Your are being stupid. You are asking questions about the experience. Or at least musing about it. You could answer all of your questions with a trip. Regardless, you are like a scared child in a corner.
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Neurotech
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227476 - 02/26/21 12:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2054/3/3/article-p280.xml
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InnerWisdom



Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,936
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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
#27227731 - 02/26/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Outerbass said:
Quote:
InnerWisdom said: There is no fucking psychedelic ideology. Sure societal and cultural boundaries are dissolved, but there is no ideology behind psychedelics. Perhaps the only one is that they are both excellent recreational and healing medicines! How dumb is it to take one person's word about what the psychedelic experience is about and then proclaim that that is the ideology of psychedelic use somehow that everyone is influenced in?! I'm outta here..
Psychedelic ideology is everywhere on the internet, from McKenna to Stamets to Joe Rogan to London Real, and countless podcasters/social media outlets.
It's being sold as the answer to everything and it appears to solve nothing other than PTSD or some mood disorders. That's all well and good but why can't we point out the rest of it is baloney?
So talking about tripping and psychedelics is ideology? What is that ideology i forgot your definition, oh yeah you never gave it...
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Questions about the psychedelic experience [Re: Neurotech]
#27227845 - 02/26/21 03:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Neurotech said: What I have come to discover for myself is that there is some kind of mechanism that we use in ordinary reality that maintains our usual understanding of reality. As you approach "answers" about the real nature of reality, these mechanisms kick in and set up roadblocks, much like our dreams incorporate disturbing sounds in order to protect our sleep and keep us asleep. Our waking ordinary reality protects us from "waking up" further. This is necessary in order to function in day to day life. Psychedelics may bypass these mechanisms and let us "wake up" to perceptions and possible truths beyond ordinary reality. So there are obstacles, when not on psychedelics, to understanding what happens during a trip. That is why your questions cannot be fully answered here. They may or may not be fully answerd if you do trip. If you do, I suggest having your questions in mind, and consider a set and setting that is not focused on getting high recreationally. I can imagine that somewhere during that trip, you would think of your questions and have to smile broadly, understanding what it is that people are saying.
And well said too.
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