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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27098445 -

i grew up gardening, so i don't think my metabolic syndrome had anything to do with lack of getting dirty, just FYI. :lol: i literally grew up making mudballs for fun, lol. i simply was born chonkey at 9 lb, 5 oz, and never was thin to begin with. what caused it? who knows, but it wasn't due to a lack of being outdoors, or even exercise. it wasn't even due to overexposure to sweets and processed food, as i didn't even crave sweets and preferred fruits and more healthier stuff over cakes and the like, and never really overate. the one time in my life i actually DID overeat on processed crap and junk food, i paid for it by swelling up another 55 lb in a few months.

as for why people don't show your interest in gardening, it might simply be because they don't have the energy or space for it. many people in the USA live in apartments with absolutely no gardening spots (not even a balcony to put plants in), are extremely struggling financially at the moment, and/or are struggling with multiple jobs, kids, etc. and have been for some time. in short, they're exhausted. gardening is a physical activity and the last thing many people want to do is spend time doing something strenuous and new (and that costs money) when they have 2$ in the bank account, are sore from work, and have no idea where to even put such plants in. if you want to get them interested in such things, you'd have to address issues like these - or at least figure out WHY they're not interested in the first place, then address those issues.

at any rate, i'm sorry for riling you up. i wanted you to understand that trying to withdraw from others, that every man for himself is not the way to go if we want to make the world a better place, but in the end, that's not something i can teach you. it's something you have to witness for yourself. only life can teach you this lesson.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27098471 -

Outerbass said:
If I believed in DMT I would move to the jungle.


The thing is, you're literally jumping to conclusions because you have ZERO idea how the psychedelic experience is like or what it can make you see about both the external and internal worlds. Go ahead, read books, make observations, but know that you're just guessing about something completely alien to you. In the end it's you who's judging tribal lifestyles as "primitive" when, if we respected the environment like those very same people, we wouldn't be facing the environmental problems we have.

It's really not about "moving to the jungle". If everyone crazy about psychedelics or environmentalism moved to the Amazon TODAY, I guarantee Bolsonaro or some other fucktard politician would be burning your home down in less than three years to place farms or palm tree plantations. You're missing the point by a mile

McKenna regarded highly the potential of the psychedelic experience to take one's focus away from the mundane and into the transcendental. If more people were into proper psychedelic use (i.e., not just party drugs), you'd most likely see a decline in the retarded ego-centered consumerism that is plaguing the west right now, which is one of the main causes of people's general detachment from nature and the environmental crisis. Disregard for nature and for others.

And just because you might care about my "credentials" (lol), I am a scientific editor for papers on physics and electrical engineering and also do scientific journalism. I love science, and I think it's one of the best tools going forward. But so are psychedelics, because people need to feel part of nature again and QUICK.

If you really like nature, my humble guess is that you'll enjoy them deeply. You won't be damaged in any way man, just take the plunge already; do it while looking at your plants on a peaceful day. You'll 100% love it.
Have a nice one


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27098502 -

Psion said:
i grew up gardening, so i don't think my metabolic syndrome had anything to do with lack of getting dirty, just FYI. :lol: i literally grew up making mudballs for fun, lol. i simply was born chonkey at 9 lb, 5 oz, and never was thin to begin with. what caused it? who knows, but it wasn't due to a lack of being outdoors, or even exercise. it wasn't even due to overexposure to sweets and processed food, as i didn't even crave sweets and preferred fruits and more healthier stuff over cakes and the like, and never really overate. the one time in my life i actually DID overeat on processed crap and junk food, i paid for it by swelling up another 55 lb in a few months.


Metabolic syndrome is most likely "mostly" a mineral deficiency. If you ate only out of the produce section you can still get it as today's produce, even organic, has only a few percent of the nutrients it did 100 years ago. The only way out is to have a high carbon, high fungal, high mineral soil planting heirloom varieties.

Quote:
as for why people don't show your interest in gardening, it might simply be because they don't have the energy or space for it. many people in the USA live in apartments with absolutely no gardening spots (not even a balcony to put plants in), are extremely struggling financially at the moment, and/or are struggling with multiple jobs, kids, etc. and have been for some time. in short, they're exhausted. gardening is a physical activity and the last thing many people want to do is spend time doing something strenuous and new (and that costs money) when they have 2$ in the bank account, are sore from work, and have no idea where to even put such plants in. if you want to get them interested in such things, you'd have to address issues like these - or at least figure out WHY they're not interested in the first place, then address those issues.


I only ever tried to convert people who had large properties like mine. They didn't do it because they were lazy.

Quote:
at any rate, i'm sorry for riling you up. i wanted you to understand that trying to withdraw from others, that every man for himself is not the way to go if we want to make the world a better place, but in the end, that's not something i can teach you. it's something you have to witness for yourself. only life can teach you this lesson.


I don't feel riled up, sometimes conversations start to go off topic, into the land of straw.

The world taught me long ago not to follow the herd, and that mankind is prone to failure. Many cultures were not able to save themselves. We have all those hallmarks. Life may still teach you this lesson.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: jomanda1990]
    #27098517 -

jomanda1990 said:
The thing is, you're literally jumping to conclusions because you have ZERO idea how the psychedelic experience is like or what it can make you see about both the external and internal worlds. Go ahead, read books, make observations, but know that you're just guessing about something completely alien to you. In the end it's you who's judging tribal lifestyles as "primitive" when, if we respected the environment like those very same people, we wouldn't be facing the environmental problems we have.

It's really not about "moving to the jungle". If everyone crazy about psychedelics or environmentalism moved to the Amazon TODAY, I guarantee Bolsonaro or some other fucktard politician would be burning your home down in less than three years to place farms or palm tree plantations. You're missing the point by a mile

McKenna regarded highly the potential of the psychedelic experience to take one's focus away from the mundane and into the transcendental. If more people were into proper psychedelic use (i.e., not just party drugs), you'd most likely see a decline in the retarded ego-centered consumerism that is plaguing the west right now, which is one of the main causes of people's general detachment from nature and the environmental crisis. Disregard for nature and for others.

And just because you might care about my "credentials" (lol), I am a scientific editor for papers on physics and electrical engineering and also do scientific journalism. I love science, and I think it's one of the best tools going forward. But so are psychedelics, because people need to feel part of nature again and QUICK.

If you really like nature, my humble guess is that you'll enjoy them deeply. You won't be damaged in any way man, just take the plunge already; do it while looking at your plants on a peaceful day. You'll 100% love it.
Have a nice one


Well to simplify, the world McKenna dreamed about already exists. I'm trying not use inflammatory language, so use whatever words you want, but the lifestyle in those jungles are already there. That's it. That's the final product. They already achieved it. I heard him once say if he could take as much substance as he wanted he would just move into the woods. Well, that's already been done. He's been to that place, and left it behind.

I don't intend to insult those people, but I look at their lifestye and it's kind of meh. I'm not sure that is the ultimate human experience or path. It doesn't appear to be the answer, unless I am missing something.

OTOH, I ran into this guy and he seems to be on the path. I follow him. I eventually got to know him. And this it he lifestyle I have chosen, and I love it.



Now, fungus is a part of my lifestyle. I do everything I can do encourage mycelial growth in my soils. So, I am fond of fungus. That led me eventually to McKenna. In addition to growing my own food I will be growing mushrooms soon.

I now think you are not in touch with nature if you aren't growing your own plants, and doing a lot of camping.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098549 -

a lot of the produce i ate came from our own backyard, as we had our own almond trees, raspberries, cherry trees, apricot tree, plum tree, grew strawberries, had grapevines, and more... but again, this really is pointless. you'll simply try and find more explanations for my "fatness" and the truth is really "who knows". for all we know it might simply be a genetic reason. all i know is i have modern science and people who actually strove to say "i don't like this, let's work together to fix this" to thank for getting better.

you can enjoy your lifestyle on your farm, but in the end you will have modern science, and people who worked together to be grateful for for many of the tools and knowledge you use, including the computer you type on, the internet you use, the knowledge of crops you grow, the roads you drive on, and more. you may choose to strive for living by yourself and self sufficiency, but you owe your very life to modern society and those who worked together to influence your past, even if you choose to avoid participating as much as possible yourself.

that makes me feel sad, but that's your choice to try cutting yourself off from everyone else.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27098561 -

"Fatness" and metabolic syndrome are only loosely linked if at all, as you can see here. I still think metabolic syndrome is a mineral deficiency. I think this guy is more right, but even he isn't completely right. I don't trust any American when it comes to nutrition. We simply have food in our stores that are giant science experiment that is producing horrific results



In other words Americans are obsessed with the ratio of their macros, and I think they are doing it backwards. The most important thing is minerals, then vitamins, then amino acids, then phytochemicals, then omega fats etc, and if you do that you will not ever eat processed foods, and with 30 minutes of research you will discover those are not even available in the produce section. In America you have to grow it yourself, in very particular ways.

I have been fat, I don't carry any kind stigma with it, it is a complicated subject. I just don't think you are metformin deficient.

Personally, I am highly charismatic introvert, which means I have people constantly gluing themselves too me while I am trying to get rid of the them. I find deep peace and happiness is solitude. OTOH I have a rich family life I enjoy. It's not that cut and dried.

However, I don't expect other people to solve my problems, and I don't expect the herd to anything other than be a herd, and run over the cliff if that's what they decide to do. I don't feel any sadness in any of this subject matter. I love gardening by myself, it feels great. If humanity needs me to save them, then they should listen to me and not ask me to listen to them, by definition.

Edited by Outerbass (12/20/20 05:58 AM)

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098587 -

well, metformin basically is just a drug that resets the body's sensitivity to insulin, making it act like it did in it's younger days. i guess the problem with me is that i never had that sensitivity in the first place - it was basically stuck in the resistant stage to begin with. all it needed was the metformin to "jolt" it into the correct position, unsticking the gears, so to speak, and ungumming the works.

i get not wanting to ask others to solve your problems for you, really i do. it's part of american culture. being tough and self sufficient and all that. but in the end, it's just toxic masculinity, and i've come to realize that true strength is learning that we can only do so much alone, and that all my accomplishments were never truly all mine to begin with - it was all built on the foundation of those who came before me, problems that were solved for me, whether i wanted them to or not. the roof over my head, designed by ancient architects and the private property set by ancient rules made up by ancient politicians, corrupt or not. the food given to my by my parents, whether i love them or hate them. the safety provided for me by policemen, whether all cops are bad or not. the job that i go to for paying my rent, my wages earned by customers who buy groceries at my store, whether their great people or complete fools or both at once! no matter what i do, i cannot get away from being aided by others.

you are asking people to listen to you, yet not have to listen to them if you want to be a savior to humanity. i'm afraid it's not so simple as that. you cannot be a savior of humanity if you do not understand humanity. to save humanity, you must be part of it. you must both listen to them, as well as have them listen to you. it must be a two way communication, a sharing among equals.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098589 -

Outerbass said:
Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think sometimes it's nice to just be understood by another person, I don't even think we need that much validation.

And we're just bros talking about life from different walks of life, no harm no foul. No offense taken, none given.

I do think McKenna did the right thing moving to Hawaii. I like that. I like taking action. I didn't look at my gardening as a political statement or intellectual vanity, it just seemed like the most obvious thing to do, and have been surprised nobody else sees it that way. However consequences do flow from our decisions, our actions and inactions.

It was too bad he got cancer. I would hope the answer to cancer was indeed in the botanicals and the plants. Even though he couldn't find it, hopefully it is in there,


McKenna was right about everything, essentially, minus his Time Wave Zero program because that was in all honesty way outside his scope as an anthropologist/botanist, which is fine.

I always say McKenna found the limit for how much pot a person can smoke, medicine just hasn't caught up. His brother insists Terence smoked more weed than anybody, ever, but never says how much that quantity actually is. Was he ripping half a zip a day or something? I remember McKenna said something like "14-20 joints a day" in a lecture.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27098675 -

Psion said:
well, metformin basically is just a drug that resets the body's sensitivity to insulin, making it act like it did in it's younger days. i guess the problem with me is that i never had that sensitivity in the first place - it was basically stuck in the resistant stage to begin with. all it needed was the metformin to "jolt" it into the correct position, unsticking the gears, so to speak, and ungumming the works.

i get not wanting to ask others to solve your problems for you, really i do. it's part of american culture. being tough and self sufficient and all that. but in the end, it's just toxic masculinity, and i've come to realize that true strength is learning that we can only do so much alone, and that all my accomplishments were never truly all mine to begin with - it was all built on the foundation of those who came before me, problems that were solved for me, whether i wanted them to or not. the roof over my head, designed by ancient architects and the private property set by ancient rules made up by ancient politicians, corrupt or not. the food given to my by my parents, whether i love them or hate them. the safety provided for me by policemen, whether all cops are bad or not. the job that i go to for paying my rent, my wages earned by customers who buy groceries at my store, whether their great people or complete fools or both at once! no matter what i do, i cannot get away from being aided by others.

you are asking people to listen to you, yet not have to listen to them if you want to be a savior to humanity. i'm afraid it's not so simple as that. you cannot be a savior of humanity if you do not understand humanity. to save humanity, you must be part of it. you must both listen to them, as well as have them listen to you. it must be a two way communication, a sharing among equals.


Lol I'm getting a lot of judgment from your posts, and reading into things that aren't there.

The stats say that in America you will either die a horrible death by cancer, diabetes or heart disease, you will likely become impotent and get alzheimers along the way, and all the science points to the food supply, and you can use science to trace that all the way back to failing soils. Now, most Americans seem ok with this as their fate, but not me. I will not die that way. I will die healthy and happy. I struggled with an excess 40 lbs for almost 10 years, but garden science showed me how to lose that weight and achieve the best health of my life.

I love science and science has guided to all my conclusions. I'm an electrical engineer by education. Science has been a boon to me, and I love it.

My toxic masculinity allowed me to retire wealthy by the age of 40, have probably the 3rd best garden in the world among so many other accomplishments. I have solved so many of my problems using toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity gave us computers, the internet, roads, dams, automobiles and the modern age you seem to like.

And I'm not really asking people to listen to me, not anymore. I've found people hold onto their vices and self destructive behavior to the grave. I've learned to let them go. You have to let Darwin do his work sometimes.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098691 -

except darwin got it wrong with survival of the fittest. evolution is about cooperation. by learning to cooperate with other individuals, it allows for more opportunities to evolve, more wiggle room to experiment with evolving, and thus more interesting possibilities with evolution. cooperation between mitochondria and a single cell allowed multicellular organisms to arise. huddling for warmth allowed mice to conserve calories, allowing higher survival rates and more experimentation with types of fur, leading to improved insulation - leading to yet more adaptation opportunities.

just sayin. evolution is about survival of the friendliest.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Psion]
    #27098742 -

I saw a crocodile rip the face off a zebra the other day.


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Amanita86]
    #27098796 -

Darwin created pack animals, with strict hierarchies, where the lead male gets to breed all the females. You could say evolution created toxic masculinity. I'm not saying I endorse that, I'm just saying if you appeal to nature you have to appeal to all of nature.

Almost all species are now considered to be extinct. I assume they were all working together.

Edited by Outerbass (12/20/20 06:06 AM)

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098801 -

So, will you try mushrooms? Because would recommend/10, going on how you post.


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“The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: anatomality]
    #27098805 -

So far no. I didn't understand that last sentence

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098818 -

Outerbass said:
So far no. I didn't understand that last sentence


Well, you 'have all the answers'. The way you post is just... like sheesh man.

I think mushrooms would be great for a person like you, however it may be very uncomfortable. You will loose reality, and be confronted to the truth of yourself.

You'll get to realize that you know very little about many things, and that is a beautiful thing. Someone you seems to have a very firm and rigid belief system, based on knowledge and facts.

How would you feel if suddenly everything you knew was no longer certain? Or if everything you knew no longer felt as true? Probably uncomfortable.

As a skeptic, you stand to gain a lot. But I don't think you'll find it easy.

*I'll even add a bit more. You seem to have a lot to prove, and a large ego. The ego does crazy things when threatened. Mushrooms will humble you, and you will gain acceptance and flexibility. Less ego is a great thing, more room for your true self to emerge.


--------------------
“The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”

Edited by anatomality (12/20/20 06:25 AM)

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: anatomality]
    #27098828 -

Lol the way some of you talk reminds me of the Borg.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27098840 -

Outerbass said:
Lol the way some of you talk reminds me of the Borg.


That's what I though. You'll have to accept that you know nothing of the psychedelic experience, and never will. No amount of research will change this.


--------------------
“The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: anatomality]
    #27098846 -

I do know almost nothing of the psychedelic experience, I stated that at the outset. I have talked to dozens of people about, and listened to hundred more, so my knowledge is limited to that only. I understand dreams come from DMT, so I guess I know that also, as I dream regularly. I actually keep a dream journal. When I wake up I jot down as much as I can. I am currently charting a correlation between past dreams and deja vu in the present. My hypothesis is that my dreams are a forecast of the future. I don't know if this is true, if it is DMT, or something else.

However my main point of curiosity, is evaluating Shamanic culture of the past and present. I'm asking those of you in the know if I'm missing something, because Shamanic cultures of the past and present don't live up to the McKenna level hype. There is nothing of those cultures that seem remotely attractive. So what am I missing.

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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27098850 -

Outerbass said:
I now think you are not in touch with nature if you aren't growing your own plants, and doing a lot of camping.


Not everyone can live in a large house anyway, thanks to the overpopulaton and greed we live surrounded by. People have friends and family ties and cannot or are not willing to say "fuck it" and leave to the countryside. In poorer countries, like where I am, you are basically a slave to the system unless you happened to be in a favored position from birth (exceptions exist, of course). Forget about owning a large piece of land, or even having the time to spend in nature comfortably (you'll get robbed in an instant).

In the end, it all comes to your personal definititon of "a life best lived" and not the psychedelic experience itself. A hardcore buddhist would be happy to have a place to meditate as much as they wanted to everyday. A tribesman would be happy to have food and shelter and fullfil their role in their community, which they'd correcly view as an extension of themselves.

McKenna said he'd like to move to the woods, ok, big deal. He's one human being. His ideas about the psychedelic experience don't have to define what the experience means TO YOU or anyone else. The only way you could ever grasp it is by having one in the first place.
If you want other, less activism-related points of view of the experience, you could read Huxley, Alan Watts, Albert Hoffman, and so on.

There's also the fact that psychedelics were an incredibly effective tool for psychiatry during the time they were allowed. Do you know anything about this? They had a remarkable effectiveness for treating addictions and depression. It's not about moving to the jungle for everyone. Some benefit in other ways. Whereas some completely abuse them and miss the point, which is the small subset you were referring to in your opening post.

You're just missing out on the amazing properties of the human brain to experience differently under the effect of psychoactive. It's something you can flat out really enjoy, like watching a sunset or laying on a beach. And you're missing out based on prejudice and fear


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Re: Questions about the psychdelic experience [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27098855 -

What do you actually know about what the shamans do or did? I haven't gotten the impression from McKenna that he promoted the idea of going back to shamanic cultures of the past, but rather to use their methods for problem solving and transcendental experiences - psychedelics.
McKenna was all about taking the dose in order to get back to subjective experience of the transcendent other directly. "Five dried grams in silent darkness is where the pedal meets the metal" he said. You might spend your whole life trying to get there through other means, but if a psychedelic drug does it reliably why bother?

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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