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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: laughingdog]
    #25782282 -

laughingdog said:
Heck there is even a famous quote:

"Meditation: its not what you think it is"


What dark remote cave have I been living in that I missed this fantastic line?!

That makes my day. And I've has a good one. (Except for a bit of dualistic thinking)

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25782906 -

yet it is what you think


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25787996 -

I appreciate your intelligent posts laughingdog but the ambiguity of my post means you're not getting my message. I'm trying to say life lived is an understanding. Intuition. Whereas speculating with language and linearity is a short term comfort because reality is far beyond linear language, reality uses the language of experience.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: beforethedawn]
    #25788210 -

^precise phrasing though, is great for communication -- communication being key. to art and other conversations.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: beforethedawn]
    #25789370 -

beforethedawn said:
I appreciate your intelligent posts laughingdog but the ambiguity of my post means you're not getting my message. I'm trying to say life lived is an understanding. Intuition. Whereas speculating with language and linearity is a short term comfort because reality is far beyond linear language, reality uses the language of experience.


Maybe we don't disagree

It seems to me, you contradict yourself - ie. you disagree with yourself

on the one hand you say: "I'm trying to say life lived is an understanding"
but then you speak of: "but the ambiguity of my post"
and understanding is not ambiguous

I would say life is mysterious (which is beyond ambiguous) as more than 2 options may be involved. And that because it is mysterious,and mysteriousness is a virtue not a fault,
(as the Tao de Ching (from 1000s of years ago appreciates)), to attempt an ultimate understanding is pointless.
All we need to understand on the level of understanding is: compassion, impermanence, etc. just a few fundamentals.

Understanding is for fixing lawn mowers, solving crimes, and other problems.
Life is not a problem, it is not even an it or noun, "it" is what 'we' are, so to speak.

In modern terms what is called "being in the Zone", refers to a state, where there is no separation. It is also called "the flow state", I think. Anyway in this state there is often no time for "understanding", as when it occurs in a sport where great speed is involved.
Alternatively time may seem to disappear, or feel irrelevant and a great positive feeling may seem to pervade existence.
So something similar to what you seem to be getting at seems common knowledge, among those who are interested in this sort of "thing".

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: laughingdog]
    #25789586 -

If every thing is made up of individual units..

Doesn't the knowledge of said units..constitute a language..?

If you can have knowledge of something...If it constitutes a unit..then you have a language..

The question is ultimately..what in existence..either doesn't have a unit as itself...or any portion of units within it?!?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25790072 -

BrendanFlock said:
If every thing is made up of individual units..

Doesn't the knowledge of said units..constitute a language..?

If you can have knowledge of something...If it constitutes a unit..then you have a language..

The question is ultimately..what in existence..either doesn't have a unit as itself...or any portion of units within it?!?


seems an odd tack to take -- but anyway

"If every thing is made up of individual units.."
& if those units are also  things then you have a fractal
and fractals are infinite
and if you watch a 'madelbrot fractal zoom' on youtube
you will see that although one can know the equation
(& perhaps 'understand' it if one is a mathematician)
still one cannot grasp the reality of it

so on the one hand compounds
are made of molecules
that
are made of elements
that
are made of atoms
that
are made of electrons, protons, & neutrons
and
those protons & neutrons
are made of quarks
and after that who knows
at the level of the electron
there is already confusion as to what 'it' 'is', & exactly where it is, etc.
and if quarks are composite no one knows

but on the other hand matter is energy
and energy is matter

so this sort of analysis doesn't seem relevant to the question, IMO

as also not 'everything' in the universe is a thing, not just the matter/energy/waves/fields, business
but also abstractions don't qualify as things.
And then there is the phenomenon of consciousness.

as regards the statement :  "The question is ultimately..what in existence..either doesn't have a unit as itself...or any portion of units within it?" I have no idea what "have a unit as itself" refers to. Perhaps Space is what you were searching for?

Edited by laughingdog (02/04/19 10:00 AM)

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: laughingdog]
    #25790238 -

Quote:
mundane knowledge shows no increase, other than better psychological understanding of humans. IMO


And yet that is a lot is it not? I agree, I do not understand the universe. The very concept of mysticism indicates the unknown.

Hinduism uses symbolism to explain the universe. It can seem whimsical when taken at face value. Perhaps there are correlations with the psychology of humans, yet it still does not provide objective truths that leads to some grand understanding of everything. Vipassana (insight meditation) reveals impermanence, suffering, and the realization of non-self. It is meant to be done once a practitioner has a calm mind and steady heart. Without such conditions such insight is suffering.

It is something we all deal with to some degree. I don't think it is right or wrong that such things are not fully realized. Karma is natural, and so is finding some compassion and understanding, to whatever degree it happens.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Rahz]
    #25790511 -

Re-reading the OP, I do not think it needs rebuttal. The topic could be confusing but books/covers.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Rahz]
    #25793306 -

So you agree with OP that the universe can be understood? I'd be up to debate that :satansmoking:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Kickle]
    #25811172 -

I think the term "linear" needs a rigorous definition in the present context, otherwise all arguments are bound to be vague or ambiguous.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Kickle]
    #25811741 -

Kickle said:
So you agree with OP that the universe can be understood? I'd be up to debate that :satansmoking:


Sorry I didn't catch your reply sooner. What I mean is that the content of the OP has more merit than the topic title suggests. The basic gist seems to be that experience is necessary to become familiar with reality. There is some mysticism in the content so I'm not suggesting the OP has it all understood, only that the idea/s are worth considering rather than simply saying the universe can or cannot be "understood".


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #25811795 -

we can have an understanding or an approach or a way of being in the universe, but as universes ourselves immersed in a larger universe, we do not individually comprehend or contain the larger within the smaller.

indeed, apart from having a way of being, we seldom even comprehend ourselves, i.e. the universes that we are within our own minds.

in any case, a person's way of being is seldom a linear ("if then") package of rules, though it often has a large set of vectors (perceptual "if then" elements) collaborating and influencing each step along the way, any one of which could be explained as a linear story, but the totality of them not so much.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25811913 -

Mostly agree. I think to the extent we understand ourselves we are also understanding the universe.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #25811980 -

Rahz said:
Mostly agree. I think to the extent we understand ourselves we are also understanding the universe.


at least the part of the universe that includes ourselves and things with minds and bodies like our own, but we must look beyond ourselves to understand geology, physics, chemistry, math, the stats etc.

in my way of being both need to be considered: inner and outer universes


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25818364 -

redgreenvines said:
we can have an understanding or an approach or a way of being in the universe, but as universes ourselves immersed in a larger universe, we do not individually comprehend or contain the larger within the smaller.

indeed, apart from having a way of being, we seldom even comprehend ourselves, i.e. the universes that we are within our own minds.

in any case, a person's way of being is seldom a linear ("if then") package of rules, though it often has a large set of vectors (perceptual "if then" elements) collaborating and influencing each step along the way, any one of which could be explained as a linear story, but the totality of them not so much.


one of your best posts IMO


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #25818371 -

Rahz said:
Kickle said:
So you agree with OP that the universe can be understood? I'd be up to debate that :satansmoking:


Sorry I didn't catch your reply sooner. What I mean is that the content of the OP has more merit than the topic title suggests. The basic gist seems to be that experience is necessary to become familiar with reality. There is some mysticism in the content so I'm not suggesting the OP has it all understood, only that the idea/s are worth considering rather than simply saying the universe can or cannot be "understood".


I do agree but following the OP is also a recipe for doing and changing nothing. Literally. How can anyone do anything but experience what they are experiencing? It's like saying do what you're already doing! Of course noticing what is already happening is often quite neat.

But I experience thoughts and forms and all manner of things. There is no way to avoid experiencing these things, IME. The idea of forms not being there is as far as I can tell an unobservant idea. Or else this post must be wholly unreadable to those who do experience such ideas as their reality.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Kickle]
    #25818430 -

I agree it wasn't a full thesis and that the title is misleading. There could be a situation where a person wants to avoid certain perceptions of reality, or where a person holds a belief about what is possible that may not be realistic.

"finding reality is impossible" - It seems that everything is reality in some manner. Finding the fundamental and ultimate basis of reality is perhaps impossible. I recall various gurus who fell from grace or were perhaps never there, Crowley comes to mind but there were others. Even in a case like the Buddha who we might assume correctly or incorrectly reached nirvana and remained til death of the body, he would only understand what is possible for a human to understand which I make no assumptions about.

I think being okay with not understanding the universe is a good step.

"The world is anything" - Anything that is possible, but not the impossible. I assume I don't know the full realm of possibility in my world or the world at large.

So, whether it's possible or not to understand the universe, I have only ignorance to offer and am in no position to debate one way or the other, except as a skeptic. I think we do well to make some progress in understanding ourselves.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Rahz]
    #25818476 -

I think being okay with not understanding the universe is a good step.

A good step towards...?



--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: As long as you are thinking in linear concepts you will not understand this universe [Re: Kickle]
    #25818921 -

Being able to enjoy the time and not causing harm to self and others.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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