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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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concepts
    #952801 -

"we don't have a concept for that which transcends concepts."  :shocked:

this is a quote from an excellent new trip report:  eternal energy

what transcends concepts?  any thoughts? 


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man = monkey + mushroom

Edited by pattern (10/11/02 02:54 PM)

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #952915 -

Nirvana.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #952952 -

What an excellent report. I think it basically sums up a lot of the things i've been thinking about recently. I was actually going to post about that experiment with the apparently telepathic particles...does anyone have any further information about it...links etc? I also read on this website (a great read by the way) that "photons only act as tightly focused particles when being observed by human consciousness. The rest of the time they act in their native form as waves of energy." ...anyone know anything about this? And are the implications as huge as I imagine they are?


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Re: concepts [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #953189 -

i wonder if the only thing that can transcend a concept is matter.

is there some other construct which can be more "imaginary" than concepts, while still not "existing as matter"?

reminds me of plato's forms...


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: Revelation]
    #953195 -

> telepathic particles

arranged as tryptamines?


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #953401 -

Wow, I really love hooey, especially when it's juxtaposed against nonsense.

Philosophy trumps physics, easily. :tongue:

Cheers,

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Re: concepts [Re: ]
    #953541 -

if philosophy is so great then use it to answer the question!!

or maybe there is a limit?  :tongue:


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: ]
    #953549 -

> Wow, I really love hooey, especially when it's juxtaposed against nonsense

what an ass you've turned into since you became mod!

i regret vouching for you.  :mad:


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #954792 -

Yes we do, there are a lot. To name one, Clear Light of the Void.

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #954812 -

Peace people! :grin:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Re: concepts [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #954907 -

VII. THE NEUROGENETIC CIRCUIT
The seventh brain kicks into action when the nervous system begins to receive signals from WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL NEURON, from the DNA-RNA dialogue. The first to achieve this mutation spoke of "memories of past lives," "reincarnation," "immortality," etc. That these adepts were recording something real is indicated by the fact that many of them (especially Hindu and Sufis) gave marvelously accurately poetic vistas of evolution 1,000 or 2,000 years before Darwin, and foresaw Superhumanity before Nietzsche.
The "akashic records" of Theosophy, the "collective unconscious" of Jung, the "phylogenetic unconscious" of Grof and Ring, are three modern metaphors for this circuit. The visions of past and future evolution described by those who have had "out-of-body" experiences during close-to-death episodes also describes the trans-time circuit VII tunnel-reality.

Specific exercises to trigger circuit VII are not to be found in yogic teaching; it usually happens, if at all, after several years of the kind of advanced rajah yoga that develops circuit VI facility.

The specific circuit VII neurotransmitter is, of course LSD. (Peyote and psilocybin produce some circuit VII experiences also.)

Circuit VII is best considered, in terms of 1977 science, as the genetic archives, activated by anti-histone proteins. The DNA memory coiling back to the dawn of life. A sense of the inevitability of immortality and interspecies symbiosis comes to all circuit VII mutants; we now see that this, also, is an evolutionary forecast, since WE STAND RIGHT NOW ON THE DOOR-STEP OF EXTENDED LONGEVITY LEADING TO IMMORTALITY.

The exact role of the right-lobe circuits and the reason for their activation in the 1960s cultural revolution now becomes clear. As sociologist F.M. Esfandiary writes in UPWINGERS, "Today when we speak of immortality and of going to another world we no longer mean these in a theological or metaphysical sense. People are now traveling to other worlds. People are now striving for immortality. Transcendence is no longer a metaphysical concept. It has become reality."

The evolutionary function of the seventh circuit and its evolutionary, aeon-spanning tunnel-reality is to prepare us for conscious immortality and interspecies symbiosis.


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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #955420 -

Pattern,

Don't get your knickers in a twist.  I am still the same old lovable Plato I ever was. :smile:

There are two things that are hard for me to ignore, nonsense combined with quantum mechanics, and belief systems that take into account only one approach to knowledge.  Most of those belief systems are built to guard the ego.  That is their primary function.  As such they lead no one into truth.  People believe all sorts of fanciful nonsense in order to protect themselves from the truth and/or reality.  I happen to think that such beliefs are inherently dangerous to an individual because whether we like it or not reality exists and will mow us down like grass if we choose to ignore it.

Rather than post a lengthy explanation as to why I think the trip report is nonsense (and btw this does not reflect poorly on the author of the report other than they have not studied enough) read this link.

Read this for a better understanding of quantum mechanics.

After that perhaps you will see why I hold the view that I do.

Cheers,

 

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Re: concepts [Re: ]
    #955661 -

> I am still the same old lovable Plato I ever was.

I hope so!  You got me worried man!

I thought you were calling my original post nonsense.  Hey make fun of quantum mechanics all you want!  I don't mind. 

I just want to know what transcends a concept!  :smile:  It could be useful in artificial intelligence.


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #956310 -

I just want to know what transcends a concept! It could be useful in artificial intelligence.

*ears perk up*
Where are you going with this?
This could be fun... give us something.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #956328 -

I will offer an answer if you will define, specifically, what you mean by 'transcend'.

Cheers,

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Re: concepts [Re: Sclorch]
    #956904 -

In reply to:
*ears perk up*
Where are you going with this?
This could be fun... give us something.



Imagine a hypothetical AI works on concepts. If an AI sees an apple, it can understand what this apple is by use of a concept. This concept is the same for all apples. It describes everything that can be done with an apple, what an apple is made of, etc. Its like a model, only its hard coded. The AI makes models from concepts.

The AI "brain" is made of many AI "neurons". These are divided into layers... each layer is more abstract than the next. That is, a layer analyzes the layers beneath it, and makes generalized/abstract conclusions. If one layer holds many specific experiences of apples, then the next layer could make a general model of the apple experience.

Layer 1:
Eat apple, health + 1
Eat apple, health + 3
Eat apple, health + 2
Eat apple, health + 1

Layer 2:
Eat apple, health increases


Now if there was some "thing" which "transcended" concepts, it might be more general, it could be a "thing" which manipulates/understands/creates concepts. PS. I have no idea what Im trying to say.

In reply to:
we don't have a concept for that which transcends concepts



why did this guy have to say that? now my brain hurts!!!!


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: ]
    #956907 -

> I will offer an answer if you will define, specifically, what you mean by 'transcend'.

I can't.  :frown:


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: Sclorch]
    #958231 -

A concept for concepts perhaps? So instead of teaching a computer about concept A, teach it how to go about analyzing concepts in general. Then the intelligence can intuit how to interact with actual examples. That's how humans learn. We aren't born with any knowledge, just a framework.

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Re: concepts [Re: Metasyn]
    #959220 -

>A concept for concepts perhaps?

Thats my initial reaction.  But a "superconcept" would still be a concept!  :frown:

Quote:
So instead of teaching a computer about concept A, teach it how to go about analyzing concepts in general. Then the intelligence can intuit how to interact with actual examples. That's how humans learn. We aren't born with any knowledge, just a framework.


Oh boy!!! that is a tough programming challenge !!  hehe

you are right, thats more in keeping with how humans think.

But how do you know when youve got a concept, vs when you only have part of one... at what point do you "cement" the concept?  For an AI this would be critical.
 


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: concepts [Re: pattern]
    #959223 -

But how do you know when youve got a concept, vs when you only have part of one... at what point do you "cement" the concept? For an AI this would be critical.

Yes... computers aren't known for their bootstrapping abilities.
Adaptability is "cement"-free.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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