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For those who believe in only perception and experience
    #2551852 -

If perception and experience are the only ways to define reality, does that mean anything you haven't experienced or percieved doesn't exist or isn't real? If the only truth that can be found is on an individuals basis, how does one explain the inferences made by other people? Are others non-existent, are they all wrong except for you, or is each person right and the rest wrong simultaneously?
Is a schizophrenics reality true?

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2551873 -

"If perception and experience are the only ways to define reality"
Well no, those are the only ways to define your own personal reality. There's also things like science and mathmatics to define global reality.

"does that mean anything you haven't experienced or percieved doesn't exist or isn't real"

No, just because you havent climbed Mount Everest doesen't make the other persons acomplishment unreal in any way.

" Are others non-existent, are they all wrong except for you, or is each person right and the rest wrong simultaneously?"
EVERYTHING is existent, on what level of existence is what is up for debate. There is no right and wrong when you get into existence.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2552066 -

in case this is adressed to me, just let me clarify
my belief is simply that all realities that we experience are equally real, weather awake or asleep. I believe mathematics and science are usefull tools for analyzing and using the information we percieve, but all perceptions and tools for analyzing and using them are equally valid. ya know? this is why although i know that when im awake i have to respect other people as people, even though i cant really KNOW there not just characters in another dream, i also dont like it when people deny my personal experiences on the basis that they dont conform to science, mathematics or consensus reality.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2552174 -

>Well no, those are the only ways to define your own personal reality. There's also things like science and mathmatics to define global reality.
-Why can't science and logic be used by a person to define their personal reality? If logical ways of thinking define the "global reality" then it makes sense for a persons reality to reflect common reality. It doesn't make sense is to justify something as true when it's not... thats not truth at all.

>EVERYTHING is existent, on what level of existence is what is up for debate.
-Surely schizophrenia will lead a person to insist on the existence of fanciful events. Does this bring what ever bizzare shit he saw into existance?

How do you explain the inferences made by other people and all of the contradictions?

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2552433 -

"my belief is simply that all realities that we experience are equally real, weather awake or asleep."
Yes, same goes for schizophrenics... why do people have to always bring up the argument about how events from trips or mental illness are not real, and then compare that to spiritual matters...


"I believe mathematics and science are usefull tools for analyzing and using the information we percieve'

Me too, I hate it when people sterotype spirituality in people as a total abandonment of logical thinking and present mindedness. That is not to bring up the other spectrum of spiritual people who actually Have lost thier minds and are on a reality totally seperate from the 'real' world. Just because I can't prove esp in a labratory does not mean it does not exist. There is unknown things about this universe we have yet to discover. It is my thinking that people who are tuned into the 'real' spiritualness of this world are perhaps even further advanced than science thinks it is, because we can break the barrier of psyics and time, and perceive events in a totally different mind state then other people. That is not to say science doesen't have it practical uses, but the limit of science is shortening daily. The vast realm of unknown and endless 'knowledge' is the other spectrum of this reality we live in. And only by healthy combination of both perspectives can one achieve what I call true.


ShroomHermit:
"How do you explain the inferences made by other people and all of the contradictions"
From my point of veiw, I could ask you the same.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2552864 -

"EVERYTHING is existent, on what level of existence is what is up for debate.
-Surely schizophrenia will lead a person to insist on the existence of fanciful events. Does this bring what ever bizzare shit he saw into existance?"

well no it doesnt. however, there are some differances. schizophrenia is a disease that has noticeable physical effects on the ventricles of the brain, and it is largely genetic. Drug use also falls under a diferent category as it relies on a foriegn agent to enter the body. the experiences im talking about happen with no tool, substance or condition other than a trained, concentrated, healthy mind.



"How do you explain the inferences made by other people and all of the contradictions? " well , people all use there own methods and paradigms to interpret what they sense. i cant call any of them wrong, only different. absolute truth cannot be proved. however, all im saying is, when im presented with an experience, like an out of body experience, i incorporate that as a real experience of my life and go from there, i dont dismiss it as unreal just because its a little wierd or its the first time it happend. In all things i can only use my own judgment, and i have come up with no other satisfactory explanations for my experiences than that there as real as the morning sun.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2552921 -

Me too, I hate it when people sterotype spirituality in people as a total abandonment of logical thinking and present mindedness. That is not to bring up the other spectrum of spiritual people who actually Have lost thier minds and are on a reality totally seperate from the 'real' world. Just because I can't prove esp in a labratory does not mean it does not exist. There is unknown things about this universe we have yet to discover. It is my thinking that people who are tuned into the 'real' spiritualness of this world are perhaps even further advanced than science thinks it is, because we can break the barrier of psyics and time, and perceive events in a totally different mind state then other people. That is not to say science doesen't have it practical uses, but the limit of science is shortening daily. The vast realm of unknown and endless 'knowledge' is the other spectrum of this reality we live in. And only by healthy combination of both perspectives can one achieve what I call true.

Yes, I have had people ask me if I'm not just crazy. I might be. That scares me sometimes, to think that maybe I'm just delusional and all that I think I see if just my imagination and I need to be put on some pretty strong drugs.

Isn't there a pretty fine line between genius and madness?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2552973 -

" however, there are some differances. schizophrenia is a disease that has noticeable physical effects on the ventricles of the brain, and it is largely genetic. Drug use also falls under a diferent category as it relies on a foriegn agent to enter the body. "

I think what I was trying to say was that even through brain defects or substances, the experiences one experiences are real. Does that mean the experiences one has when tripping have aplication on the 'real' world? Well some, some not, this is where it gets iffy, and leaves a gate open for an easy seizure, because it is all about interpretation of the situation..

"the experiences im talking about happen with no tool, substance or condition other than a trained, concentrated, healthy mind"
:thumbup:




Frog: "Isn't there a pretty fine line between genius and madness?"

I'd say so.... It's easy for me now because I am just establishing my lifestyle as one that incorporates systems others deem ridiculous. I can't imagine when people get older and get even MORE caught up in thier fake illusions of life. Oh well, that's why I say liberate your mind early, but don't not do it just because your old.

Peace

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: Frog]
    #2553678 -

PHARMAKOS, Frog, 2Experimental:
Each of you all agree with your own version of reality and have found interesting ways to support these views. However, if each of you was on a path to truth... would I be able to put you three in a room together to agree on all points?

2Experimental: "there is a universal truth , but the path that one must reach to it are personal." You believe that each person must follow there own path, and instead of this path diverting from reality it actually converges on it. So when several people embark on this kind of "journey" they will all arrive at a truth that is universal (and common among all) If the truths you find are not universal, question the methods that lead you believe it to be a truth.

I like science because it determines truth that reflects the universe, not the individual. Science changes and we learn more. It begins with observation and moves through hypothesis, testing and debate. If we attempted to do this by ourself, we'd end up with alot of junk because anything can be true.

Frog: You honorably admitted that you could be wrong and I feel I should do the same.
It is possible that I have percieved wrong. It is possible (though I don't see how) that what an individual holds to be true is true. However, I don't see us breaking out of conflict using this thinking. I mean, what happens when two people who base there life on two opposing ideas meet? What happens if their creed tells them to kill the other person?

I wouldn't be using this example if it didn't occur.

PHARMAKOS:
>all perceptions and tools for analyzing and using them are equally valid.
-So guessing at dreams is just as valid as using logic in reality? Each is just as likely to lead to truth???

You said "schizophrenia is a disease that has noticeable physical effects on the ventricles of the brain, and it is largely genetic" to distance it from other dellusional realities... but the reason I used schizophrenia as an example was because it had a medical explaination. It doesn't matter if a personal reality is caused by schizophrenia, going to church, or believing that dreams are real... it matters that people recognize that these are not "truths" outside of the scope of the individual.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2555022 -

I think that the problem with trying to differentiate between personal truth and "universal truth" is:

All human beings perceive all things (I hesitate to use the word THINGS because I don't just mean THINGS, but just all..) through their perception.

So how then, can any group agree to a universal truth?

Everyone is different, and everyone perceives everything differently. All science is based on observation through perception. How then can it be accurate?

The concept of universal truth by science is an illusion created by the weaving together of many perceptions, each of them different from each other.

So then, why strive for universal truth?

Or look at it this way...

"would I be able to put you three in a room together to agree on all points?"

They would not agree on all points, but that's the beauty of how this whole "personal truth" thing works. They don't need to agree. They WOULD be willing to accept each other's views and live peacefully along side each other.

See, if you put three individuals who are firm believers in the concept that there is a "universal truth" for them to chase after, you would instead have a result involving a lot of commotion and maybe even some violence.. assuming no one is killed, two of the 3 people will eventually submit to the third person's views. They would agree on all points as far as the "source of concepts" is concerned, but that is only his own personal truth.

The other two who's views were swayed are still weary and doubtful of that which they spoke, only to appease the third and build his personal truth.

The problem with universal truth is that it is not personal, and we are. We are people, after all. Every single one of us is trapped inside his or her meat popsicle until the day they die.

Why fool yourself with the notion that you can figure it all out? Trust me, you can't. The concept of "personal truth" involves acceptance of a lack of proof of a universal truth.

Okay, that's all I got.. sorry if it seemed rambley, I tend to ramble at times when trying to form my point.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2555890 -

>[The 2] WOULD be willing to accept each other's views and live peacefully along side each other.
-From what I have have observed, this isn't the case. People aren't willing to concede personal views. Put a White Christian Klu Lkux Klan member, a Jew and an African American muslim in a room together and nothing would be solved. The 3 members of this board that I used in the first example might be able to get along on a "agree to disagree" basis but thats not how real life is.

Now, you say that any attempt to form a universal reality is actually the thing to cause violence and conflict. What about a clean democratic vote? Certainly there are concepts that people can agree on. I mean, take x=x (I don't know if this is a universal truth) for example. The three people in the same room could probably all agree on this point, and perhaps several others. 10 people in a room might agree on even less, and 100 people on even less. The point is that having a few principles to bring everyone into a common reality works better than each person developing a complex system of beliefs that defines a personal reality. If people are willing to die for what they think, there is more harmony in agreeance.

My concept of a universal reality doesn't involve violence in getting everyone else to think the same way as me... it's establishing a common ground for existance. A Universal Reality is antonymous to egocentrism; it's taking more than the individual into account.

I realize that this might not be the best platform to launch ideas that force people to take others into account. After all, who else other but yourself are you going to trust in finding the truth? Certainly not the people who each think they already have it right. Still, this isn't going to stop me from creating a thread asking for individual truths to see if some universal truth exists. After all, it's about working through a common framework using ideas.

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2555979 -

It's true that reality can only be defined by our senses. There is an old philosophy, it was made by some bishop. Reality is only what we percieve and experience as you said hermit. As to your question about what we havent perceived or experienced, the bishop's answer is that God perceives everything. Therefore when nobody is in a room at a certain time, it doesnt cease to exist because God is perceiving it.

It's possible, but I'm not really buyin it  :wink:

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2557673 -

when describing reality, I think we must define what we are really talking about. Are you talking about the physical reality or the emotional one?

when you are paranoid, naturally the world around will seem fast paced and scary. it is also natural that you will encounter other people with a similar paranoid view of reality. This same physical place can be intrepreted by a very happy person and naturally they view this place in a more appreciative and joyous light.

so are you asking me, which view is correct? well, how about neither? better yet, how about, who am i to say? Especially since it's my point of view that I'm arguing from. How presumptuous of me to say to a fellow human that what they think is wrong.

as far as my individual perspective goes, I think it's an ego thing. I agree with Jacq, but I'm not saying he's right. I'm jsut agreeing and that's all I'm doing. same with disagreeing.

now comming to common ground will take a pespective of acceptence at the very least. When talking about changing ideas, I think that's a really hard thing to do. let's go a little slower, and let's not think so highly of ourselves. are we to think that we can MAKE someone think a certain way? instead of TRYING to change ideas, we can share, and leave the rest up to the individual to dwell on. As long as we are thinking, it's all good.

besides why spoil all of the fun of not knowing?

another view of reality?

as in the physical world is concerned, all i can say is what my senses tell me. I don' totally accept it yet, because in dreams and such, reality feels the same. Right now I am at a point where I feel uncertain about this definition of reality that we have going. especially with the mysteries that light and relativity have to offer. Existence is such a mystery to me. Even though I feel uneasy about a lot of it, as the days progress I accept more and more that I really don't know, and that's a really comforting thought


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

Edited by kaiowas (04/14/04 01:49 AM)

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Re: For those who believe in only perception and experience [Re: kaiowas]
    #2560097 -

"when describing reality, I think we must define what we are really talking about. Are you talking about the physical reality or the emotional one"

awesome comment man. Im pretty sure this whole serier of debates started with one of my posts about how nothing is more real than perceptually real. People have been misinterpreting this , what im trying to say is that there is more than one reality, but no one is more real than another.

There is a waking life. Theere is a dream life. But as you said, perceptually they are mostly indistinguishable. THere may well be a "life-life" and then a "death life" and as you said, there is a physical life and an emotional life. Maybe a mental life too? a spiritual one? substitute reality for life in all these examples too...

But what im saying is, dont dismiss any of the other realities simply because it doesnt totally overlap with the physical one

i dunno some people have a real hard time with this, for me its as plain as day... But then my reality isnt the same as yours, so neither of us is right/wrong

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