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InvisibleSwami
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Ignorance and Mysticism
    #2535482 - 04/07/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Is a false or nonsensical explanation better than no explanantion?

Take these questions at face value and DON'T ADD any outside anecdotes.

Looking into the past we have:

1. Thunder is caused by
a. I don't know.
b. an angry God.

2. Our village was wiped out by the hurricane because
a. I don't know.
b. our sacrifice did not appease the Gods.

3. A comet means
a. I don't know.
b. it is an omen of bad tidings.

Sound silly? How about the more modern:

4. The gay artist was infected by AIDS because
a. We don't know yet.
b. He was being punished by God for his sins.

5. The drug user was infected by AIDS because
a. We don't know yet.
b. He was being punished by God for his sins.

and the current:

6. I saw a bright moving light in the sky, therefore it must be:
a. I don't know.
b. an alien spacecraft.

7. I heard strange noises in the house last night, therefore it must be:
a. I don't know.
b. a ghost.

8. What happens to our consciousness after biological death ?
a. I don't know.
b. *Insert any of a thousand (equally incorrect) possibities.*


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535550 - 04/07/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

b. *Insert any of a thousand (equally incorrect) possibities.*




Equally incorrect, eh?  :shiftyeyes:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535612 - 04/07/04 04:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

9. The current God on Earth is:
a. fireworks_god
b. All of the above.

:lol:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535651 - 04/07/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A belief without evidence is mostly speculation.  I speculate all of the time  :thumbup:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Viaggio]
    #2535666 - 04/07/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Speculation is fine as a starting point for more research, but much of the mystical stuff espoused on this board cannot be further researched. So does anyone want to answer my question: "Is a false or nonsensical explanation better than no explanantion?"


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535674 - 04/07/04 04:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

much of the mystical stuff espoused on this board cannot be further researched 




Maybe you need to evolve your research tools...  :wink:


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535680 - 04/07/04 04:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, and.. I'm still thinking about your question.

Thinking IS still allowed, right?  :grin:


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Posts: 287
Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535708 - 04/07/04 05:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think false explanations are worse because sometimes they lead to belief systems, which have lead to horrors such as stoning women for having contact with men.

It's better to admit we just can't explain certain things right now. It was probably different though, thousands of years ago, when man had not made many scientific advances, and was still in the dark on a lot of the basics.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2535775 - 04/07/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TrueBrode said:
I think false explanations are worse because sometimes they lead to belief systems, which have lead to horrors such as stoning women for having contact with men.

It's better to admit we just can't explain certain things right now.  It was probably different though, thousands of years ago, when man had not made many scientific advances, and was still in the dark on a lot of the basics.




Careful... talk like this can get you labeled a "Skeptic".  :biggrin:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2535799 - 04/07/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"Is a false or nonsensical explanation better than no explanantion?"



No... explanations are illusory.  :lol:

Seriously though, mysticism can be used in very positive ways, as long as you remember to look at stories as stories, and don't take things too literally. And "nonsensical" explanations often contain grains of sense and truth, hinting towards the real explanation, if one is clever enough to see the connection. In this case, a nonsensical explanation is better IMO than no explanation, as long as it's kept within the realm of speculation and investigation.

Thanks for stimulating me to think about that! :yesnod:


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2535810 - 04/07/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

if you want to be super relativistic, all belief systems are false or non-sensical since the human brain can't think infinitly. all answers are more or less made up, based on what we percieve.

so i'm going to have to go with trust my perceptions and not worry about other people not knowing what i'm talking about.

so to answer your question, thunder is caused by the aliens sending out signals from atlantis 5,000 miles underneath the earth's crust :P


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2536986 - 04/07/04 11:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Is a false or nonsensical explanation better than no explanantion?





The answer is:

b. an angry god


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2537000 - 04/07/04 11:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

damn good question swami. But personally i dont think its possible, now or in caveman days, to have anything but false or incomplete understanding. Even our senses are flawed. We cant even claim to have certain knowledge that the sky is blue. We cant claim to know for certain that the world isnt just a dream. We dont know anything, and if you define everything that is in anyway incorrect or incomplete than even scientists are into mystisism, as science is constantly evolving and discrediting its own old theories, just as mystical knowledge has advanced, changed, evolved.

Mysticism isnt synonymous with incorrect or superstition. It is a system of knowledge designed to explore a diffrent facet of our world than is the supposedly non mystical knowledge of science. Science studies the consensual, objective, empirical world, Mysticism studies the emotional, the spiritual, the intrapersonal.

Science can teach you the most modern explanation for thunder 'electrons rubbed together and caused a vacuum and the air rushes back in and claps' (or something) but it cannot teach you to come to terms with life, to be at peace, to love, to see god, to dream, ot feel bliss etc, and although people with rational/logical minds see these things as delusional, wishfull or self-deception, people like me see them as PERCEPTUALLY real (read my post in the OBE thread) and thus as real as anything else, as all we have to go by is perception.

Like i say, Certain, unshakeable knowledge is impossible for us because our only vehicles for rational understanding are our own sensory organs, which are flawed in and of themselves. We cant 'see' magnetic waves or x-rays any more than we can 'see' god, but we can infer the existance of both from other observations.

To answer your initial question, Yes flawed or incomplete knowledge IS better than no knowledge, just as its better to have bad vision than to be blind.\


Peace
Stay High


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2537094 - 04/07/04 11:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
if you want to be super relativistic, all belief systems are false or non-sensical since the human brain can't think infinitly. all answers are more or less made up, based on what we percieve.

so i'm going to have to go with trust my perceptions and not worry about other people not knowing what i'm talking about.

so to answer your question, thunder is caused by the aliens sending out signals from atlantis 5,000 miles underneath the earth's crust :P




This is just sad. I hope one day you'll be able to look back and know why.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2537155 - 04/07/04 11:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Come on sclorch, thats not very good debate etiquette! if you have a problem with his ideas tell us all why or keep it to yourself!
no matter WHAT you post i could pop in to sneer and say 'thats just SAD, sclorch and i hope someday youll be smart enough to know why' and then disapear like a smug little dink, but that wouldnt be nice.

Personally i think truekimbo is essentailly trying to make the same point i was. No matter what we can never think beyond the theoretical and the hypothetical, because even are perceptions are not absolute and if an infinite (absolute) truth exists it would be greater than our minds capability to comprehend, and thus any Truth we think we have is just a reflection or an after image of the truth.

Unless your comment was about the atlantis thing he threw in at the end, in which case you cant take a joke, or a point
:nonono:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2537378 - 04/08/04 12:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

When paired with the two previous points he made, the Atlantis comment isn't so comical. It's even less amusing considering all the junk floating around in here as of late.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2537439 - 04/08/04 12:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

im still not getting you man. what is it that offends you about this oppinion? why are you labeling it junk? to me it seems to be a pretty innocent statement and as i just explained one i agree with. Are you just grouchy or am i missing something here?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2537542 - 04/08/04 12:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

First off, I'm not offended. Second... you've been here long enough to know that I don't put up with ungrounded BS.

THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK... nope, that last thought was stupid... okay... THINK THINK THINK THINK you can all play along THINK THINK THINK THINK

Okay, honestly... I know how people get lured into the esoterica, but I don't know why they don't just look around and say "Hey, this is a bunch of crazy bullshit! Why am I still here?"


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2538046 - 04/08/04 04:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

humans have a compulsion for extracting meaningful patterns from the chaos of the world. Andrew Newburgs "casual operator" (which is an innate cognitive function) compels us to find causes-and-effects for events. the casual operator can help us discover genuine cause-and-effect relationships -- embodied, for example, in the laws of physics -- as well as spurious ones.

studies show that people insist on finding a pattern in a sequence of events even when they are told that the sequence is entirely random.

things in this reality, that are not understood, are easiest explained by our extreme, compulsive anthropomorphizing.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Ignorance and Mysticism [Re: Swami]
    #2538233 - 04/08/04 07:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

a false explination is in the very least a jumping off point

someone can look at a theory and say to themselves: "there's something not quite right about that" and then figure out what exactly doesn't make sense, why it doesn't make sense, and then use that information to help them figure out any other possible explinations that make more sense

just as I suppose they could also see some part of the explination that seems right, but still know that it's not quite enough to fully explain what's really going on...and then they can start looking for any other clues that might help em fill in the gaps


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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