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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4316723 - 06/20/05 01:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow superinputinvasion - So, sorry for my rant (I have to work on that :wink:)

All I have to say: Historically, we got from the great (god) to the smalls (atom), now we have to get back again (to see the whole, from the parts), to get the full picture :wink:
There is no discrepancy of science and believe, because mysteries drove mankind to see whats behind the curtain, since their rise of consciousness! Thats that great about it !
And every believe that discovers as true, is called science.


We are, by far not at the peak of evolution. Human evolution continues in his mind, you wont see it much on his body because that evolution is hellish fast. We just have to give it a chance...

The test about AI, with the screen-keyboard conversation is called 'Turing-Test'. It's given an additional time limit of 30 minutes.

Scientifically, viruses are not called life. Perhaps we have to reconsider ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4316849 - 06/20/05 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I have a question for you. Here's the scenario:

1. A sophisticated computer using advanced artificial intelligence language processing algorithms is built.

2. The only mechanism of interaction with this machine is via keyboard and monitor a la chat room.

3. You sit in front of two keyboards, one with our machine at the other end, and the other with a human.

4. No matter how hard you try or what questions you ask, you find it impossible to discern which one is the human and which one is the machine.

Is the machine then conscious, and if you say no, by what criteria do you determine this?





You are referring to the Turing test.

Alan Turing, a briliant mathematician - briliant is such a poor word for Turing - realized that there can be no objective test for consciousness, thus he figured that the only way to tell if something is conscious is to interview it and subjectively decide.

There is however a serious flaw in the test (many have argued that there are more). There is a high possibility that human will judge wrong. That is, the computer is not going to win but rather the human will fail. It is a well known psychological fact that people tend to view their own psychological projections on the external world.

There have been countless claims of witnessing extraterrestrial beings under obscure circumstances or the Virgin Mary on windows reflections and so on... Clearly humans are prone to self deception. In such cases in this board, Swami and others (I guess you are included) have applied scientific scepticism. This case is hardly any different. Just because the source is mainstream scientists and not your average money hunting charlatan, does this grant you the right to double standards?

People are people, and as far as I am concerned scientists can very well be (and are in many cases) money hunting charlatans. Or they may have various other reasons based on self-interest for doing what they do.

Turing himself was a tortured soul. Although he saved England?s ass in World War II by breaking a Nazi secret code, he was prosecuted for being homosexual, locked in jail and was administered hormones until he grew breasts and committed suicide. It is interesting to note that the initial version of the game upon which Turing based his test has to do with judging which of the two interviewees is the man, and which one is the woman. Is it not possible that Turing was envisioning intellect free from sexuality?

(On a side note: Turing himself in the 1950 paper ?Computer machinery and intelligence? where he proposed the test ? and gave birth to AI - posed as a viable objection to the test, between others, the existence of ESP for which he considered that there is evidence)


Edited by raytrace (06/20/05 02:07 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: mucousal or mystical? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4316901 - 06/20/05 02:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i was wondering? if i suggested kissmet to kiss my ass, which ?emotion? would it exhibit?

anger?... disgust?... positive valence?... high arousal maybe?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4316943 - 06/20/05 02:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As I have brought up several times, 50-100 years ago, a machine that could play world class chess would have been considered intelligent. When that milestone was breached, the machine was NOT declared intelligent.

sorry Swami, you're slightly off-topic. consciousness is discussed, not intelligence.

this argument by the way is typically used by strong AI proponents to keep their arrogant egos intact, and really means nothing.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4316983 - 06/20/05 02:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I suggest you read Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?".

Also, Roger Penrose, one of the best physicists currently alive has dealt in depth with the matter of machine consciousness. Check out "The Emperor's New Mind" and the follow up "Shadows of the Mind".

You know the tale with the emperor's new clothes? Machine consciousness is that emperor's new mind


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: moog]
    #4317016 - 06/20/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I believe the computer systems we use everyday have a small degree of consciousness

There is no reason to assume that, unless if you assume that there is consciousness everywhere. Objectively, computer systems are in no way different from any other piece of the universe. Information processing is just the human interpretation of the causally linked events occurring in that designated part of the universe we call a "computer".

How can information exist independently of an observer that would interpret it? Information is meaning. Meaning depends on context. By changing the context, information disappears.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317041 - 06/20/05 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and why does complexity have to do with consciousness?

the earth is quite complex, does it mean it's conscious?

if i tie a rope in knots over knots over knots... which is the point when it will become conscious?


Edited by raytrace (06/20/05 02:52 PM)


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317077 - 06/20/05 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

3rd sheep-shank after the 1/2 hitch squareknot.


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317088 - 06/20/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Summing up consciousness till now:

Theories: many
Evidence: none


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317092 - 06/20/05 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

can you please draw that?


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317104 - 06/20/05 03:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



It's untightened so as to show you its inner workings. That is the knot that will take over the world in 2012. I suggest you buy a sturdy pair of fiskars to prepare for the coming Armageddon.


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317109 - 06/20/05 03:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

come on man, just a draft sketch... just so that we all have something consciouss on our screen... :rolleyes:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317114 - 06/20/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oh, wait you just did! what's its name?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317148 - 06/20/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

poor guy... being conscious at random times... in several screens simultaneously... s/he must be having a personality crisis


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317153 - 06/20/05 03:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, knot v3.8 (codename: jenkins) tried to strangle itself just yesterday but the noose only added to its powers.


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317168 - 06/20/05 03:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

LOL!  :grin:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317469 - 06/20/05 05:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

sorry Swami, you're slightly off-topic. consciousness is discussed, not intelligence.

The comparative argument holds. Whatever criterion is proposed to demonstrate consciousness will shift as soon as it is met and people will say, "That proves nothing!" and a higher goal post will be set.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4317503 - 06/20/05 05:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever criterion is proposed to demonstrate consciousness will shift as soon as it is met
such is the nature of illusive things...


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317520 - 06/20/05 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



uhm.... wasting time and energy.... doing.... what?


screw kissmet. get a kitten. feel the warmth.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: mucousal or mystical? [Re: raytrace]
    #4317821 - 06/20/05 06:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i was wondering? if i suggested kissmet to kiss my ass, which ?emotion? would it exhibit?




:rolleyes:




.


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