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InvisibleSilversoul
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Mystical Answers
    #3749663 - 02/08/05 04:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Pardon me for making assumptions here, but it seems to me that a lot of people in this forum will look at a strange phenomenon and rather than listening to more evidence and choosing the most rational conclusion or suspending judgement until more is know about it, will instead go with the most exciting conclusion, even if there is strong evidence pointing to a different conclusion. I can't say I blame them. There's always that part of us that wants to believe in something beyond the reality we know. However, believing something because you would like it to be true is called wishful thinking, and gets us nowhere in our pursuit of knowledge. Allow me to introduce you to a concept you may or may not be familiar with:

Quote:

Occam's Razor:
Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.




Let us look at the case of the strange Egyptian head shapes mentioned in another thread. One side claims that the heads belong to another species of human, possibly of Extraterrestrial origin. The other side claims that it is an example of the ancient practice of head-binding. We know that head-binding is a practice that predates ancient Egypt, that the Egyptians and Nubians both practiced it at some point, and that it is still practiced in some areas of the world today. We have no solid evidence that extraterrestrials have visited Earth, that they have gotten involved in human DNA, that these strange humans were unable to mate with other humans(the boundary that defines a species), or that this trait was passed on genetically to children. So which is the simplest answer? I'll let you figure that one out.

I don't want this to turn into a debate over that one example. I merely used it to point out how the desire for something beyond their normal reality can obscure someone's judgement. Believe me, I understand what it's like. I used to be a UFO enthusiast, a believer in magick and the occult, and a conspiracy theorist. I understand all too well the appeal of the unknown. But understand that its appeal is that of curiosity, not necessarily of truth. Do not get too comfortable with an explanation simply because it fits in with what you want to believe. If there is no rational explanation, leave it at that until there is sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion. It's ok not to know. Hell, it's even ok to be inclined towards a particular answer, all things being equal, but don't get too cozy with that answer and then reject any evidence to the contrary. That is self-deception, and inhibits true spiritual growth.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3749937 - 02/08/05 06:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know what it feels like to truely believe in something. I always leave some room for doubt.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: exclusive58]
    #3749950 - 02/08/05 06:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Good job. It's a rare trait.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3749993 - 02/08/05 07:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

True dat. I regularly shave Reality with Occam's Razor. You might notice that those who post here occasionally, who are markedly delusional (evident to most anyone, not just mental health professionals) have the most complicated, convoluted themes that anyone could possibly imagine - subscripts upon subscripts. Comparatively, the truth of a given matter is very simple.

I recognize that there are different temperamental types. The Zen Buddhist insists on utter simplicity down to the aesthetics of Zen - a few scattered pine needles on a white table cloth, for example. The Tibetan Buddhist is complexity incarnate from the elaborate multidimensionality of the doctrine of psychic centers to the ornate symbolism of the deities. The Zennist isn't interested either in gradations of enlightened awareness or peripheral psychic powers ('Don't worry, they'll go away.') while the Tibetan Buddhist schools are rife with these things. Some people prefer a macroview, others prefer a microview, and yet both are describing the same Reality.

I can appreciate the conceptual simplicity of the Ten Oxherding Pictures of Zen, but I am in utter awe of the visual complexity of a  Tibetan sand mandala. On the other hand, the mythic description of the mutitiered
Kalachakra 'abode,' of which the sand mandala is but a 2-dimensional representation is definately contrary to Occam's philosophy.

Am I saying anything at all here? :confused:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3749999 - 02/08/05 07:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

NEVER ASSUME!!! That means don't be too quick to assume ANYTHING...even what seems likely. Base conclusions on the best evidence you have, and ALWAYS get a second opinion.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3750034 - 02/08/05 08:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

heres a bit from Prometheus rising:




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-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3750640 - 02/08/05 01:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So astrophysics, neuro surgery and baking a souffle without it collapsing in the oven are all "mystical" phenomenon huh?

Perhaps they were at a time when no one understood them. Those people who had to think some complex thoughts and develop some complex skills to come to understand such mysticms were just deluding themselves and trying to feel special I suppose. The mental ilness and need to escape and feel special of those poor complex souls is just so sad. I think I'll send my neuro surgeon a sympathy card.

Then again, these are very complex understandings and skills for most humans so really they just must be wrong because everything that is correct and true is quite simple to elucidate for anyone to understand. Should only require a sentence or two to explain if its correct.

Jiggy goes to throw out all of her appliance manuels. They must be bullshit. My car manuel alone actually has chapters for understanding its mechanics and operation. The fabrications in there must be enormous. Those people trying to deceive me at Mazda are quacks.

Best just to keep it simple, find some pawn fronds to cover myself when it rains, hunt some bears for skins to cover myself when its cold, pick some fruits and nuts for nourishment and stay off the stormy seas and out of the wild jungle and screw attempting to understand the mechanisms of the universe and why people are they way they are and do the things they do like elongating their heads.

Finding the cure for cancer? Too complicated! Designing indoor plumbing? To complicated! Did you guys know that people use to wipe their ass with their hands if a tree leaf wasn't handy until toilet paper was invented. To give you an idea when it was, the first form of toilet paper used was the Sears Roebuck catalog pages.

How come every time I go to throw something up and away it comes back down?  Oops, I dare not question things I don't understand as the answers may be too complicated and they will be wrong. I will look for the simple answer. It must be magic.

Why ask why someone would put their child's head in a vice and squish it to deform them? Why ask where such an idea came from and why so many cultures around the world at a time did it? And how did they get those vices into eutero to elongate the heads of those unborn fetuses?

Hey you guys, lets all warp our next born children to look like the elephant man! Yeah, then Micheal Jackson will want to financially care for them. He's loaded.

Why would so many cultures become inspired do such a thing?

Ohhhhhhh fuck my circuits are overloading attempting to figure this out, smoke coming from the ears can not compute, can not compute melt down, go to the simple answer quick.............can't find one........panick....(flailing arms) Danger  Warning Will Robinson, alien life forms "may" be present! NOOOOOOOOO not that. Ah yes! I have the answer! Sand puts out fire, I will just stick my head in it. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh relief from thinking to hard. :confused: :crazy2: :kiss:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3751131 - 02/08/05 03:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Why ask why someone would put their child's head in a vice and squish it to deform them? Why ask where such an idea came from and why so many cultures around the world at a time did it?"

This is commonly known to be a practice among many early people not just Egyptians. In Africa this practice continued into the 20th century. The Mayans did this to their royalty to denote aristocracy. In South America head deformation was a common ornament. Other means of ritual deformation and scarification were also practiced on our planet. The ancient Chinese would bind the feet of royal females as babies so their feet stayed too small to ever walk. This helplessness displayed the fact, that the royalty had no need to exert themselves, to the common people. Many African tribes put rings around the neck of the chieftain's daughters at birth and adding a ring every so often. This resulted in females with elongated giraffe like necks. The Yanomamo Indians of South America wore no clothes so the only means of decoration was to change the body. I saw one Yanomamo dude on TV (National Geographic) once with a scrotum that hung to his knees and was pierced with many objects. I thought it was pornographically gross, but they didn't think so. You don't need to put pressure on the skull in the womb to deform the head. A form applied in the first week of birth that is left for a year will do the job permanently. Primitive cultures believed that the body itself was a canvas meant to be deformed, tattooed, and scarred for decorative purposes. My point here is to indicate that ritual deformation was common and various in it's forms. We need no Alien influence to think up such ideas...people are already warped (mentally) enough for that naturally.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3751151 - 02/08/05 03:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Your post is a good example of the ignorance of the general public pertaining to Occam's Razor. They always focus on the part that says the simplest explanation is more likely, ignoring the qualifier "all things being equal." In other words, if all the evidence for each possible explanation is the same, the simplest one out of them is usually closest to the truth, BUT ONLY IF ALL EVIDENCE IS EQUAL. You act as if it's some sort of theory for laziness.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3751188 - 02/08/05 03:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

equal is 'again', not only 'the same'?

the same, again. [Are] equal.

""all things being equal.""

to them self?

en eye for an eye? :wink:  :heart:
and a spade, for a spade.. a digging tool, for a digging tool...
...


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (02/08/05 03:51 PM)


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Gomp]
    #3751534 - 02/08/05 05:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yes..


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3753475 - 02/09/05 12:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hue,

It's cool if your own research on the long heads has satisfactorily answered all of your questions and you've closed your book on it. Fine by me. This is hardly a life and death issue to spend to much time if anymore time on.

Until the egyptian post, I knew nothing about these things or the massive ancient history of how many skulls have been found, some still in eutero, and in how many ancient cultures they were found and of head binding and some different theories as to why people did it.

I knew about the others and they are still practiced today and make sense. I can see stretching the neck and stunting the growth of feet happening. Making a skull produce twice the bone mass up and out with mere squishing that doesn't seem to narrow the head at all and without a suction cup to pull at the top or without cutting the skull to allow for new bone growth to fill it is something I want to see with my own eyes.

These freaky skulls are found and people go , 'oh yeah, head wrapping did that" doesn't cut it for me. I have a cousin who's a bone doctor. I want to ask him about this.

I posted a link in the Egyptian thread that said wrapping produced a cone shape at best. That I believe as some babies whose heads are squished during delivery or pulled from the top are cone shaped. I've seen cone headed babies and they don't look like some of these skulls that are full and round at the top twice the height of a normal skull.

I can't find one single link that shows the method for how the full round tops were made or an explanation for it. All I find are sites that say, head wrapping was an ancient common practice to elongate the skull. Anyone got a link on the actuall method and scientific explanation for how an elongated skull, twice the length, that is not conical was made to form?

I am just in question of this myself and need to see it to believe it. Most of you guys say you need to see stuff to believe so wtf? I reserve the right to say I need to see it to believe it too when I don't.

Say it's possible to make an adult human skull look like that from squishing. Fine by me. If I get that far, I then want to know why people would do this and where the idea came from and how it became a wide spread practice amongst many continents as far back as 3000-5000 B.C. On top of that, different cultures seem to have different reasons for why the particular culture did it. Where did they get these ideas from? I WANT TO KNOW.

One of them said it was to honor a certain goddess. Goddesses are suppose to be mythical beings. Who saw what with a long head, called it a goddess and said I want to honor her by stretching my next daughters head?

Another said it was to mimic an elite class of intelligent humans. Anyone curious about this class of intelligent humans that were so much smarter people squished their children's skulls to mimic them to appear to be elite and intelligent too?

In the link I gave, they had compelling evidence that showed there most likely was a race of HUMANS with long heads and they have possible theories of it first being a genetic defect and then evolved as a race feature through the societies practice of inbreeding. That sounds plausible, but what made this race so great that cultures around the world wanted to mimic an inbred genetic defect?

Yet, whats funny about that is, how does a genetic defect result in higher intelligence? Hardly a defect to me.

If you feel this case is wrapped up sufficiently enough for you then great. I'm sure I will forget about it in a few days and become curious about something else myself. However, I still have a shitload of unanswered questions.

Why is it the quickest to call people gullible, say others should question more and be skeptical are so quick to buy into the "Oh it's head wrapping" now go about your business and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain on this one?

Time may reveal simple and mundane answers, better then the ones given that I am satisfied with and time may reveal some mind blowing shit too and we may never know for sure what the hell that was really all about. Screeeeeeew the ETs on this one, I have questions to be answered before I even get to speculating that on this.

This may all very well fit it in somewhere within Darwinism, fine. I still have medical scientific, geographic and social philosophical questions about it and they apparently are not going to be answered to my satisfaction here. That's okay. If we all knew EVERYTHING we wouldn't be here. Considering I don't have any books closed, I will never be satisfied with any answers I ever have anyway.

Answers are just new questions to me. Thanks for sharing what you did know on this. I certainly agree that humans do some pretty warped shit. Hell, I even had holes punctured into my own ears for body decoration purposes. I don't even know who first got the bright idea to start body piercing or why. I certainly didn't do it to my daughter. She can make that decision for herself.

Anyone need a touch up on their coffee? :stfu: :stfu: :egg:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3753703 - 02/09/05 12:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think good information should always come with a warrantee, for example, "If you're not satisfied with my assertion, show proof of my inaccuracy and I will concede in full". If you were selling a product that you were confident was of high quality, you wouldn't be afraid to put a good warantee on it; the same rule usually applies for information. I always try to make a disclaimer before posting something that is questionable. I'll put that garantee on any statement of fact that I make (if I don't say so, just know that the offer always stands).

There are some arguements in which there is no qualitative evidence on either side, e.g. arguements about opinions, tastes, and ideologies. In these cases I would welcome debate, and I may even change my views, but I don't feel obligated to satisfy any burden of proof.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3753968 - 02/09/05 01:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Its human nature to believe.Cynicism is learned.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3754053 - 02/09/05 01:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that they are not even superficial."
-Nietzsche

In terms of reality as we know it, most mystical answers have no structure and no foundation other than the ego and the imagination.

Indeed, it would seem most of them are made up on the spot, and the people making them really don't care about the accuracy of the statement. They have made God, and then they say to disprove it- they want you to disprove their imagination and ego.  :rolleyes:

Nice one, make up something ridiculous and with no proof and then ask people to disprove it. How do you light a bowl without any bud in it?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3754083 - 02/09/05 02:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Its human nature to believe.Cynicism is learned.




Your wording sort of suggests that cynicism is a 'discipline' of some kind. Cynicism is more like an attitude or a disposition than a pattern of reasoning.Logic is a pattern of reasoning, which can be learned, although some people have an aptitude for it. Cynicism makes for good humour, but it doesn't necessarily make you a rational person.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: soulmotion]
    #3755414 - 02/09/05 12:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What Im suggesting is that people have an innate nature and need to believe in things.Especially when young before they become jaded.People dont start not believing until they are taught to.Little kids grow up believing in many things and as we grow older we are taught this is wrong and that is wrong and slowly beleive fades and we often become full of disbelieve and cynicism.

Ive met many children who believe in god,religions,fairies,supernatural beings,etc... many things.But few adults that believe in anything outside of religion and even with that they struggle constantly.



The problem isnt with my wording but with your interpretation.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: exclusive58]
    #3755500 - 02/09/05 12:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
I don't know what it feels like to truely believe in something. I always leave some room for doubt.




I take it you believe that's the best way...


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3755509 - 02/09/05 12:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

but seriously,

a lot of people believe whatever they think is the most Post. know what I mean? like, if everyone else believes that extra terrestrials are real, then this person will claim that it's all a hoax or whatever, even though that's not as exciting as ETs being real. what excites them is suprising other people with their beliefs. so they strive to be post-everyone.

"that's your belief??!? wow, how unique.."


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Mystical Answers [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3755567 - 02/09/05 12:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Until the egyptian post, I knew nothing about these things or the massive ancient history of how many skulls have been found, some still in eutero, and in how many ancient cultures they were found and of head binding and some different theories as to why people did it."

Well, do your own research before making a judgment, but don't ascribe it to ETs without even checking the matter out. I have read about primitive cultures for the last 15 years, and until I see new evidence, my mind is made on that one...new evidence comes up and I'll consider it. Do not trust most Internet sources, though, as they are unreliable due to the lack of fact checking done on most web sites. Many colleges will not let students use the Internet as a source for a paper.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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