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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4314166 - 06/19/05 05:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

Data is a cool guy




Indeed he is but he's also consistently represented as someone in search for the one thing logic cant bring: true empathy, compassion, emotion, belief.




Data is a fictional character. You all know that, right?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4314170 - 06/19/05 05:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why not just go purely scientific?

I can see where Wiccan_Seeker is coming from.

Currently, and possibly forever, it is not known what ultimately started things; what got the universal ball rolling.

The best available explanations coming from science are intrinsically neither testable nor falsifiable. If these explanations are the best we ever find, then it is as valid to say the universe was created by $DIETY as it is to say the universe spontaneously, and without intent, just appeared, or even that the universe has always been and never wasn't.

You can't fault someone for picking any of those three choices or even making up one of their own, if, from all currently available evidence, it is not possible to ever know the truth.




Just because you can't answer a question is no reason to go looking for all powerful imaginary beings to explain things. It means you should look harder and think more. God is an intellectual dead end. And of absolutely no predictive value whatsoever.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4314203 - 06/19/05 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

you need a leap in logic. As has already correctly been pointed out: behavior is not consciousness

I have a question for you. Here's the scenario:

1. A sophisticated computer using advanced artificial intelligence language processing algorithms is built.

2. The only mechanism of interaction with this machine is via keyboard and monitor a la chat room.

3. You sit in front of two keyboards, one with our machine at the other end, and the other with a human.

4. No matter how hard you try or what questions you ask, you find it impossible to discern which one is the human and which one is the machine.

Is the machine then conscious, and if you say no, by what criteria do you determine this?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4314712 - 06/19/05 08:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the test is good only for conversational reflex
this is part of personality, and it can be engineered.
is it a critical part of consciousness?
a dog would probably be much more conscious than a conversational bot.

who knows


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4314837 - 06/19/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But a dog can't talk, so its interactions with us are strictly behaviors. The only limiting factor in making an artificial dog that is totally indistinguishable from a real one is the mechanical engineering involved.

This is why the chat computer example is more apropos to this discussion; we're not discussing how realistic an artificial sentience (AS) looks but rather whether it can be distinguished through less superficial means from a natural sentience.

If we had the mechanical engineering skills to make a robot that was physically indistinguishable from a human, then adding the AS program would render the robot indistinguishable from a human.

Now, with no means to tell it from a person, how can we call it anything less than conscious and alive?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4314913 - 06/19/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you think I believe that God is watching our universe on his porch with a sixpack beside him you're mistaking.

Everyone know that God is a wine afficianado.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4315006 - 06/19/05 10:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, no no...

[shakes head]

God drinks beer. Why else would he have created Germany?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315020 - 06/19/05 10:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe certain computer systems, due to their complexity, have degrees of consciousness. Then what?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: moog]
    #4315022 - 06/19/05 10:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe your PC is conscious, in its own form :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: trendal]
    #4315031 - 06/19/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly trendal. I'm not joking when I say this, but I believe the computer systems we use everyday have a small degree of consciousness.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: moog]
    #4315121 - 06/19/05 10:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think deterministic systems can rightly be called conscious.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315124 - 06/19/05 10:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What makes us not a deterministic system, but a computer one?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315145 - 06/19/05 10:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, what I mean is predictably and repeatably deterministic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315160 - 06/19/05 11:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

4. No matter how hard you try or what questions you ask, you find it impossible to discern which one is the human and which one is the machine.

Could you build algorithms that could describe "personal" tastes, likes or dislikes to artistic expressions...?    Finding "hidden" meanings in poetry and such....?  A favorite color....?   


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315170 - 06/19/05 11:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


What makes us not a deterministic system, but a computer one?




The human soul. :heart: :sun:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4315197 - 06/19/05 11:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Could you build algorithms that could describe "personal" tastes, likes or dislikes to artistic expressions...? Finding "hidden" meanings in poetry and such....? A favorite color....?

Yes. There already exists software that does this convincingly. If you query the software long enough, it's possible to tell it's not a person, but eventually, this distinction will disappear as the systems are refined.

It used to be said that a computer will never beat the intuition of the best human chess players; then it happened.

It's only a matter of time before a computer indistinguishable from a human will be developed.

So, when a computer starts talking to you about its fears and hopes, it's happiness and sadness, it's nightmares and dreams, and its relationships with people, such that its communication with you cannot be distinguished from a human's, what then?

Is it conscious then? By what criteria can we say it isn't?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315212 - 06/19/05 11:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

By what criteria do we say a human is conscious?

Once you figure that out, then you can determine the consciousness of machines.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315219 - 06/19/05 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Is it conscious then? By what criteria can we say it isn't?"

You're thinking in black in white. There are degrees of consciousness.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315220 - 06/19/05 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I don't have to know what conciousness it to come to the opinion that humans and a particular AS machines both posses that property.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315229 - 06/19/05 11:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We can't come to a scientific conclusion without having scientific criteria to base that conclusion on, eh?

The reason people are still debating whether machines are conscious or not is because we have not scientifically defined conscious experience. Once we do, the philosophy of the argument will dissipate.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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