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InvisibleDiploidM
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Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical
    #4313191 - 06/19/05 08:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In 1986, computer scientist Craig Reynolds developed a computer program called Boids. His intention was to simulate bird flocking behavior.

The simulated birds follow three simple rules:

-Separation: steer to avoid crowding local flockmates

-Alignment: steer towards the average heading of local flockmates

-Cohesion: steer to move toward the average position of local flockmates

From these three simple rules emerge beautiful and complex patterns of behavior that are remarkably like real-world flocks of birds. The flocks change directions, dip, swerve, and rise just like real flocks (and perhaps not surprisingly, like schools of fish).

Add a few more rules like obstacle avoidance and goal seeking, and you get a virtually perfect simulation of real birds in flight so realistic that the model is used by Hollywood special effects studios.

If this complex subset of bird behavior can emerge from three simple rules in a simulation, it is reasonable to think that some similar ruleset hard wired into bird brains by DNA is responsible for their real-world flocking behavior.

Extend this with additional hard wired behaviors (like eating, walking, etc.) and it's easy to see how a complete behavior set for birds could arise from a few more rules.

Extend this further and it's reasonable to concede the possibility that humans and consciousness are nothing more than a more-complex, but similarly non-mystical, ruleset hard wired into our brains by evolution and DNA.

This getting complexity from simplicity is also seen in Chaos Theory, in the weather, in turbulence, and in myriad other places in nature. In none of these instances is anything mystical involved. If simple rules can lead to such complexity, why not (relatively) simple carbon-containing molecules lead to conscious people? :mushroom2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4313243 - 06/19/05 08:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I always thought consciousness was a result of the bio-electrical properties of mucous.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4313255 - 06/19/05 08:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I fully subscribe to that!

Hey, what's mystery except for the unexplained?
I'm fully at peace with being the sum of my parts. God has put us together and now we're discovering how he did that the mystery of it may slip like sand between our fingers, but the splendor remains.

After all: isn't it great, absolutely smashingly great, that the play of energies yields embodied consciousness? I am far more comfortable with an internally consistent universe then one where stuff happens "because".

If you were a God, would you build an universe where you'd have to pop open the hood to fasten some galaxies every friggin million years or would you create a universe that runs by itself, regenerates itself and repairs itself so you can sit on your porch with a sixpack and watch it unfold into Infinity? :laugh:

Seriously, to me Cosmos = God so that Cosmos generates Consciousness is a given. When the miracle is explained the Wow gets bigger still.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4313258 - 06/19/05 09:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Amen.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4313260 - 06/19/05 09:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Behaviour is not consciousness, it is just behaviour

Computer AI characters in games can be even be intelligent enought to trick a human player , they react to "you" (your 3d model) etc
but they are not conscious.

In other words, there is no such thing as a person there that lives and experiences the 3d world just like you experience this world.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4313305 - 06/19/05 10:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It is certainly true that not all beviour is consciousness. It is equally true that consciousness is behaviour. In my opinion, it comes from the same source as all other behaviour and that is, as redgreenvines so disgustingly put it, the "result of the bio-electric properties of mucous." No soul, no spirit, no magic, no nonsense about supersentient controllers or benefactors. Just us, all by our little old selves.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4313323 - 06/19/05 10:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no magic? If you ask me, lifeforms are magic, human brain is the ultimate magic


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4313575 - 06/19/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So we're emergent phenomena brought about by a massive system of simple, distinct agents?

I was wondering when someone else would pick up the idea :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: trendal]
    #4313603 - 06/19/05 01:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes and mucous


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4313699 - 06/19/05 02:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's interesting that you accept the evidence of consciousness and life being purely a physical phenonema, yet still include pseodoscientific concepts like God in your explanation. Why the discrepancies? Why not just go purely scientific?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4313716 - 06/19/05 02:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

when you think about it, it seems as if we are the at the highest level of existance that we can achieve.. I would like to think that there is life after death..

but think about it. before life, all that existed was plain old matter.. then the matter started to organize itself. eventually, after aeons of evolution, the matter organized itself at such a complex level that living, breathing matter acutally became conscious and aware of itself.

when i think about that, it blows my mind. that fact that all we are is highly organized matter.. the same matter that makes up everything else, but we're alive and aware of ourselves.. it seems likely that this is the highest level of existence that there is.

but it doesnt bother me one bit. i know that all i am is a bunch of atoms, that somehow have achieved self awareness as a whole. it hurts my brain to try to think about it any further right now.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4313739 - 06/19/05 03:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't understand how a set of rules, no matter how complex, could give rise to self awareness.

Sure, we could conceivably create robots that mimic human behaviour, but where is the evidence that the robot would be self aware? How does that follow? I don't see it.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Revelation]
    #4313790 - 06/19/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I can't even comprehend how so many trillions of trillions of electrons in my computer's hardware give rise to this image I'm viewing now. Neither can I comprehend how the hundreds of billions of cells on my body form to join one human being, but it happens.

Either way, whether or not we can comprehend it, it doesn't mean we need to turn to pseudoscientific alternatives with no evidence. We can't comprehend the complexity that gives rise to us because we weren't developed to understand that much. It's useless in terms of evolution to comprehend how the molecules in your mind join to form your consciousness, when really all evolution cares about is that you find a girl to fuck and create more human beings.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Revelation]
    #4313963 - 06/19/05 04:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Revelation said:
I don't understand how a set of rules, no matter how complex, could give rise to self awareness.

Sure, we could conceivably create robots that mimic human behaviour, but where is the evidence that the robot would be self aware? How does that follow? I don't see it.




it is very hard to see it when we are it looking at itself
one needs to be able to abstract or at least to look at it sideways.

consciousness can be objectified, and consciousness can bee seen by itself, and it could be created on a platform that is not heavily mucous based, but having a nice gel available to conduct electric charges is very helpful.

being open to a mystical side helps only so far as it means the mind is open to learn something that was a mystery, and there is always that. but we should be prepared that this one won't be a mystery forever to everyone.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4314002 - 06/19/05 04:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If this complex subset of bird behavior can emerge from three simple rules in a simulation, it is reasonable to think that some similar ruleset hard wired into bird brains by DNA is responsible for their real-world flocking behavior.
very likely

Extend this with additional hard wired behaviors (like eating, walking, etc.) and it's easy to see how a complete behavior set for birds could arise from a few more rules.
possibly

so far, so good, but for this:

Extend this further and it's reasonable to concede the possibility that humans and consciousness are nothing more than a more-complex, but similarly non-mystical, ruleset hard wired into our brains by evolution and DNA.

you need a leap in logic. As has already correctly been pointed out: behaviour is not consciousness

If simple rules can lead to such complexity, why not (relatively) simple carbon-containing molecules lead to conscious people?
you mean to say that counsciousness is a property of sufficient complexity?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4314031 - 06/19/05 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Revelation asked:

where is the evidence that the robot would be self aware? How does that follow?


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4314109 - 06/19/05 05:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It's interesting that you accept the evidence of consciousness and life being purely a physical phenonema, yet still include pseodoscientific concepts like God in your explanation.




If you think I believe that God is watching our universe on his porch with a sixpack beside him you're mistaking. Thats just entertaining writing.

I equate God with the Universe. I see the universe as entirely inteconnected and as such al consciousness is interconnected. Like I said: to me God is another word for Universe because it literally is the All-Encompassing One. Thats entirely scientific speculation.

Humans have within them the desire for logic and the desire to believe. If I would "go purely scientific" I'd be Commander Data the android from startrek, if I went entirely on belief and waived all science i'd be a pope or something. In both extremes I could not connect to the outside world as humans tend to be a mixture of belief and logic.

Without belief I should post in Sci & Tech, not Spir & Phil  :smile:


--------------------
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4314120 - 06/19/05 05:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Data is a cool guy, it is refreshing looking at him seeing everything from a childlike perspective, it makes you see how humans don't make much sense.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4314160 - 06/19/05 05:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Data is a cool guy




Indeed he is but he's also consistently represented as someone in search for the one thing logic cant bring: true empathy, compassion, emotion, belief.


--------------------
CDC  COVID  SELF-CHECKER  :syringe:  COVID  MAIN  THREAD  #3
Get 1 month's supplies in case of illness or calamity and help loved ones.
Strengthen your friendship ties - and exchange more favors and advice !

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4314162 - 06/19/05 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why not just go purely scientific?

I can see where Wiccan_Seeker is coming from.

Currently, and possibly forever, it is not known what ultimately started things; what got the universal ball rolling.

The best available explanations coming from science are intrinsically neither testable nor falsifiable. If these explanations are the best we ever find, then it is as valid to say the universe was created by $DIETY as it is to say the universe spontaneously, and without intent, just appeared, or even that the universe has always been and never wasn't.

You can't fault someone for picking any of those three choices or even making up one of their own, if, from all currently available evidence, it is not possible to ever know the truth.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4314166 - 06/19/05 05:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

Data is a cool guy




Indeed he is but he's also consistently represented as someone in search for the one thing logic cant bring: true empathy, compassion, emotion, belief.




Data is a fictional character. You all know that, right?


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4314170 - 06/19/05 05:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why not just go purely scientific?

I can see where Wiccan_Seeker is coming from.

Currently, and possibly forever, it is not known what ultimately started things; what got the universal ball rolling.

The best available explanations coming from science are intrinsically neither testable nor falsifiable. If these explanations are the best we ever find, then it is as valid to say the universe was created by $DIETY as it is to say the universe spontaneously, and without intent, just appeared, or even that the universe has always been and never wasn't.

You can't fault someone for picking any of those three choices or even making up one of their own, if, from all currently available evidence, it is not possible to ever know the truth.




Just because you can't answer a question is no reason to go looking for all powerful imaginary beings to explain things. It means you should look harder and think more. God is an intellectual dead end. And of absolutely no predictive value whatsoever.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4314203 - 06/19/05 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

you need a leap in logic. As has already correctly been pointed out: behavior is not consciousness

I have a question for you. Here's the scenario:

1. A sophisticated computer using advanced artificial intelligence language processing algorithms is built.

2. The only mechanism of interaction with this machine is via keyboard and monitor a la chat room.

3. You sit in front of two keyboards, one with our machine at the other end, and the other with a human.

4. No matter how hard you try or what questions you ask, you find it impossible to discern which one is the human and which one is the machine.

Is the machine then conscious, and if you say no, by what criteria do you determine this?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4314712 - 06/19/05 08:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the test is good only for conversational reflex
this is part of personality, and it can be engineered.
is it a critical part of consciousness?
a dog would probably be much more conscious than a conversational bot.

who knows


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4314837 - 06/19/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But a dog can't talk, so its interactions with us are strictly behaviors. The only limiting factor in making an artificial dog that is totally indistinguishable from a real one is the mechanical engineering involved.

This is why the chat computer example is more apropos to this discussion; we're not discussing how realistic an artificial sentience (AS) looks but rather whether it can be distinguished through less superficial means from a natural sentience.

If we had the mechanical engineering skills to make a robot that was physically indistinguishable from a human, then adding the AS program would render the robot indistinguishable from a human.

Now, with no means to tell it from a person, how can we call it anything less than conscious and alive?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4314913 - 06/19/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you think I believe that God is watching our universe on his porch with a sixpack beside him you're mistaking.

Everyone know that God is a wine afficianado.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4315006 - 06/19/05 10:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, no no...

[shakes head]

God drinks beer. Why else would he have created Germany?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315020 - 06/19/05 10:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe certain computer systems, due to their complexity, have degrees of consciousness. Then what?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: moog]
    #4315022 - 06/19/05 10:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe your PC is conscious, in its own form :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: trendal]
    #4315031 - 06/19/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly trendal. I'm not joking when I say this, but I believe the computer systems we use everyday have a small degree of consciousness.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: moog]
    #4315121 - 06/19/05 10:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think deterministic systems can rightly be called conscious.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315124 - 06/19/05 10:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What makes us not a deterministic system, but a computer one?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315145 - 06/19/05 10:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, what I mean is predictably and repeatably deterministic.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315160 - 06/19/05 11:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

4. No matter how hard you try or what questions you ask, you find it impossible to discern which one is the human and which one is the machine.

Could you build algorithms that could describe "personal" tastes, likes or dislikes to artistic expressions...?    Finding "hidden" meanings in poetry and such....?  A favorite color....?   


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315170 - 06/19/05 11:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


What makes us not a deterministic system, but a computer one?




The human soul. :heart: :sun:


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4315197 - 06/19/05 11:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Could you build algorithms that could describe "personal" tastes, likes or dislikes to artistic expressions...? Finding "hidden" meanings in poetry and such....? A favorite color....?

Yes. There already exists software that does this convincingly. If you query the software long enough, it's possible to tell it's not a person, but eventually, this distinction will disappear as the systems are refined.

It used to be said that a computer will never beat the intuition of the best human chess players; then it happened.

It's only a matter of time before a computer indistinguishable from a human will be developed.

So, when a computer starts talking to you about its fears and hopes, it's happiness and sadness, it's nightmares and dreams, and its relationships with people, such that its communication with you cannot be distinguished from a human's, what then?

Is it conscious then? By what criteria can we say it isn't?


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315212 - 06/19/05 11:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

By what criteria do we say a human is conscious?

Once you figure that out, then you can determine the consciousness of machines.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315219 - 06/19/05 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Is it conscious then? By what criteria can we say it isn't?"

You're thinking in black in white. There are degrees of consciousness.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315220 - 06/19/05 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I don't have to know what conciousness it to come to the opinion that humans and a particular AS machines both posses that property.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315229 - 06/19/05 11:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We can't come to a scientific conclusion without having scientific criteria to base that conclusion on, eh?

The reason people are still debating whether machines are conscious or not is because we have not scientifically defined conscious experience. Once we do, the philosophy of the argument will dissipate.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315238 - 06/19/05 11:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Is it conscious then? By what criteria can we say it isn't?

I guess another question would be, is it the software that "holds" the consciousness, or the computer....?

But then again, reciting a feeling that is not really "felt", can you really call that "consciousness"....?
(besides getting some sort of virus.... :smirk:)


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315245 - 06/19/05 11:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, I completely agree. I can't even clearly define consciousness, let alone come to any scientific conclusions about it.

The conclusions I'm referring to would all be subjective based on an inability to distinguish communication with a human and the hypothetical machine.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315319 - 06/19/05 11:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As I have brought up several times, 50-100 years ago, a machine that could play world class chess would have been considered intelligent. When that milestone was breached, the machine was NOT declared intelligent.

Humans love to believe they are special so that whatever new milestone is surpassed by artifical entities, someone will come along and say, "Yeah, but can it tap-dance?"

The final hurdle will be reproduction, yet even this is merely a technological challenge and not a mystical one.

Basically the paradigms will keep shifting so that our egos are kept intact.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4315365 - 06/20/05 12:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i'll believe a computer is conscious when i see it kill itself.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: BleaK]
    #4315369 - 06/20/05 12:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How do you know that's not just a biological flaw in our consciousness? Computers are much more perfected than humans, due to the fact that they're not created simply by genetic variation but are programmed and tested as precisely as possible by the smartest creatures of humanity. It wouldn't surprise me if no conscious computer had many of the problems humanity has, such as suicide.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315394 - 06/20/05 12:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

are programmed and tested as precisely as possible

But for a machine to be indistinguishable from a human, it has to be able to self-program rendering any initial anti-suicide imperative coded into its behavior subject to self-modification driven by sensory input.

Perhaps the ultimate test of consciousness is when such a machine begins to exhibit irrationality (like emotions) and when it begins to make choices clearly contrary to its own best interests.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315431 - 06/20/05 12:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
It wouldn't surprise me if no conscious computer had many of the problems humanity has, such as suicide.




i wasnt aware that suicide was a problem.
so i dont know what u mean.

i intended it as an example of the ulimate questioning of the self.
or the ultimate aknowlagement of awareness.

its asking HOW in controll am i? how alive am i? can i die?
if the lights go out, am i still alive?

how about curiosity as a motive for suicide?


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: BleaK]
    #4315467 - 06/20/05 12:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't mean problem in the traditional sense, but in a biological sense, if we have young men and women who would benefit the species killing themselves, that could be seen as a problem. Whether or not conscious computers follow the same philosophical path as us lesser humans would have to be seen.

Diploid, I don't necessarily think what you say is true. The reason biological evolution makes creations contrary to the survival of the species and life is because its generated by chaos, namely genetic variation. A computer wouldn't follow genetic variation; it seems most likely it'd view possible futures, pick the best one and evolve itself. While its choices may seem irrational to us, it doesn't make sense that a supercomputer with consciousness would start making harmful decisions. Emotion also seems an added feature to the human brain to help with our survival, but it's a bit archaic to add such primitive feelings to a superior machine.

I imagine the best of the conscious supercomputers will follow cold logic and science, evolving itself at rapid speeds and gaining as much information and advantage as possible.

Edit: Future to feature


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Edited by Ravus (06/20/05 12:42 AM)


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315489 - 06/20/05 12:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Emotion also seems an added future to the human brain to help with our survival, but it's a bit archaic to add such primitive feelings to a superior machine.

But if the machine changes its behavioral matrix as a function of its interaction with its environment (people), then it's plausible that it will spontaneously give rise to irrationality, emotion, depression, suicide.

More so if its name is Marvin.  :tongue:


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ravus]
    #4315633 - 06/20/05 01:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I don't mean problem in the traditional sense, but in a biological sense, if we have young men and women who would benefit the species killing themselves, that could be seen as a problem.

Edit: Future to feature




good thing this isnt about biology.
its about consciousness..


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mucousal or mystical? [Re: Diploid]
    #4315667 - 06/20/05 01:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

not just emotion but the expression of emotion
eyebrows and eyes

even fake eyebrows or shaved eyebrow ridges that crenulate from time to time give expression - we want to see evidence of the changing masks of personality, we want to imagine a person going through conversations by himself - even with his shoes or his car.

I think the japanese came up with a facial robot that was very convincing.


and mit's kismet is very good





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Edited by redgreenvines (06/20/05 01:54 AM)


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4315775 - 06/20/05 02:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So, in a nut shell, the behaviour of objects is subject to the conditioning imposed upon them by changes in their environment, be it conditioning imposed by a computer programmer, or by the course of evolution itself. As an extension of this observation, living beings are also subject to the conditioning imposed upon them by changes in their environment, be them real or imagined.

That complex models such as human beings are subject to the same governing influences as more simple models like objects or computer games: how does this in any way eliminate the idea of a mystical quality to conciousness? That conciousness may in fact be an emergent property of complexity: how is this not the among the most mystical ideas ever pondered?


>> This getting complexity from simplicity is also seen in Chaos Theory, in the weather, in turbulence, and in myriad other places in nature. In none of these instances is anything mystical involved. If simple rules can lead to such complexity, why not (relatively) simple carbon-containing molecules lead to conscious people?

It wasn't so long ago that weather patterns and moon cycles were absolutely mystical to us. Simply because we understand the way certain phenomena operate does not necessarily drain them of their mystical quality. For something to be mystical, it does not have to be outside of our understanding. I can explain the physics behind a paper airplane, but when I watch it fly through the air, I'm still awed as though confounded by an enigma. The different rates of airflow over the wing create positive pressure underneath, creating lift... wow. Something about that is not expressable. A paper airplane is something absolutely mystical.. if you'll allow it to be.

If there's anything that can drain the mysticism out of phenomena, it's not human ingenuity. It's human arrogance.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4316109 - 06/20/05 05:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am very fascinated by chaos theory. It does basically show how deterministic systems can lead to totally unpredictable outcomes which look as if they were devised by a conscious being. Evolution is a classic example, the huge, mindboggling diversity of life on earth is astoundingly complex and varied. We cannot even begin to try to comprehend the inner workings of life, but we do know that all of this stems from the genetic code of each organism, which usually consists of a few thousand genes which can basically have four different values (G, T, C and A), and out of this arises the most powerful, complex, beautiful thing known, the human mind and consciousness. This doesn't kill spirituality/mysticism one bit, however, if anything it makes it more potent, the exact mechanism by which the human mind is created from such simple beginnings, the way each snowflake is unique, the way the weather works. Using chaos theory we can isolate this process, it is most explicit with fractal pictures, especially the mandelbrot set:

This is the most complex shape ever created, it far surpasses even the human imagination, it has infinite complexity, if you were to zoom into it by a factor of one billion, a billion billion, or google (one with a hundred zeros after it) one would still see new patterns emerging, old ones being continued, yet it still would be recognisable as belonging to the mandelbrot set. But what is even more astounding is just how simply it is drawn, the equation for it is basically z next=z^2 + starting number, drawn on a complex plane, the colour (or in the above case the apparent height) of each pixel determined by how many iterations (repeats of the above equation) it took for the initial value to converge on that point. And out of this I think we have gotten as close as possible to replicating what we see as consciousness.
What is so beautiful about it is that it links the cold, certain determinism of science with the aesthetic freedom and beauty of the creative/aritistic/spiritual mind.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ped]
    #4316110 - 06/20/05 05:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If some people can lower their body temperature, would that make us a cold blooded animal?
If all we are is reactions to external stimuli, then why can we rise above the biological limitations sometimes to do outrageous things?
If every thought and action I have is governed by genetic/chemical makeup, coupled with external phenomenon, how can some people have a consciousness outside of that, which can control and manipulate this composition or even circumstance?


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: BleaK]
    #4316198 - 06/20/05 07:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i'll believe a computer is conscious when i see it kill itself.




Format Linux off your drive and install Windows?

Humans actually has created artificial life, and you have cursed it out on many occasions: Computer viruses.

Computer viruses replicate their genetic code (DNA code/binary code) in the primordial soup of the virtual world. As their replication is not perfect (none is) there will be alterations/mutations in its code which give most decreased but some enhanced survival characteristics, thus computer viruses asre subject to darwinian evolution. If a virus were not actively genocided upon then over time it would acquire traits that were not programmed into it or even *traits unprogrammed by man*

So basically a computer virus is a lifeform akin to a single-cell organism in the primordial soup of the virtual world.

Since you see that the natural enviroment of the www includes lots of random BS, some unwritten by man, eventually you would have a virus forming by itself from the murmur in the primordial soup, passive creation as happened to life on earth.

What if you left that unchecked? Or wrote viruses of enhanced evolution? (say one that does not harm but recognises its own programming language in software it encounters and copies random pieces of code into random parts of it's code)

Perhaps you would get things like a spontaneously evolved computer virus ant colony where you have a mastervirus and alot of specialized worker-viruses who go out onto the web and cut & drag little bits of code they find to their nest to see if they can feed future generations  :crazy2:

Perhaps more highly evolved beings that can detect the approach of a Norton sweep and hide themself in a fake .rar disguise like a chameleon to blend into the surroundings?

Eventually you would see virtual intelligence emerge from the sum of its parts. And because we can identify all the parts, we see no miracle in that. I guess the same thing happened to us. Because we are so complex we think we are more than the sum of our parts, but we just don't know how all parts interact.
Hey and whats wrong with being just parts?

Snowflakes are not unique. "Unique" is what some scientists shriek when confronted with truly large numbers.

1...There are a well-defined upper and lower amount of water molecules that form the definition of a snowflake.
2...There is a finite number of enviromental variables that can shape a snowflake.
3...Since a snowflake forms in a finite timeframe from a finite amount of mulecules shaped by a finite number of variables in finite succession...

An infinitely long snowstorm will not just re-create every shape but even recreate every succession of snowflakes that takes place inm a finite time.
A google to the googlest power isn't a drop in the ocean of Infinity.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4316208 - 06/20/05 07:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

anyway if you have patterned matrix holding steady for years, accumulating personal history, & communicating to other simmilar pattern expressions that also have histories you have the basis of all we are talking about.
whether it is the cute robots with eyebrows or mandelbrot pattern elements - when they up and start dealing effectively with eachother exchanging stories respectfully and empathetically then it begins to show something like our ideal of consciousness


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4316227 - 06/20/05 08:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps you can combat the computer-virus anthill in your server by emailing the virtual exterminator who wipes them out for you from inside the server, at a cost of only 1 GB/GHz/week of your serverspace. :crazy2:


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4316342 - 06/20/05 10:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

but if those viruses are conscious
isn't it murder
or
accessory to murder?


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4316485 - 06/20/05 11:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

should the artificial exterminator be incarcerated in a Prison Server without web access, and who are we to judge virtual life?

Virtual ants may basically be like the ants in your garden, but what if the virtual exterminator exterminated the ants in your garden from your computer?

What right do we have to infringe on their world, in the light of what right have they got to infringe on ours?

Is it ethical to do an antivirus sweep?

Aaah.. the rules change with artificial life!


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4316492 - 06/20/05 11:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

THE WALRUS:

Do you have a link where I can download a mandelbrot simulator you can explore/travel through in realtime?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Asante]
    #4316723 - 06/20/05 01:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow superinputinvasion - So, sorry for my rant (I have to work on that :wink:)

All I have to say: Historically, we got from the great (god) to the smalls (atom), now we have to get back again (to see the whole, from the parts), to get the full picture :wink:
There is no discrepancy of science and believe, because mysteries drove mankind to see whats behind the curtain, since their rise of consciousness! Thats that great about it !
And every believe that discovers as true, is called science.


We are, by far not at the peak of evolution. Human evolution continues in his mind, you wont see it much on his body because that evolution is hellish fast. We just have to give it a chance...

The test about AI, with the screen-keyboard conversation is called 'Turing-Test'. It's given an additional time limit of 30 minutes.

Scientifically, viruses are not called life. Perhaps we have to reconsider ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
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"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4316849 - 06/20/05 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I have a question for you. Here's the scenario:

1. A sophisticated computer using advanced artificial intelligence language processing algorithms is built.

2. The only mechanism of interaction with this machine is via keyboard and monitor a la chat room.

3. You sit in front of two keyboards, one with our machine at the other end, and the other with a human.

4. No matter how hard you try or what questions you ask, you find it impossible to discern which one is the human and which one is the machine.

Is the machine then conscious, and if you say no, by what criteria do you determine this?





You are referring to the Turing test.

Alan Turing, a briliant mathematician - briliant is such a poor word for Turing - realized that there can be no objective test for consciousness, thus he figured that the only way to tell if something is conscious is to interview it and subjectively decide.

There is however a serious flaw in the test (many have argued that there are more). There is a high possibility that human will judge wrong. That is, the computer is not going to win but rather the human will fail. It is a well known psychological fact that people tend to view their own psychological projections on the external world.

There have been countless claims of witnessing extraterrestrial beings under obscure circumstances or the Virgin Mary on windows reflections and so on... Clearly humans are prone to self deception. In such cases in this board, Swami and others (I guess you are included) have applied scientific scepticism. This case is hardly any different. Just because the source is mainstream scientists and not your average money hunting charlatan, does this grant you the right to double standards?

People are people, and as far as I am concerned scientists can very well be (and are in many cases) money hunting charlatans. Or they may have various other reasons based on self-interest for doing what they do.

Turing himself was a tortured soul. Although he saved England?s ass in World War II by breaking a Nazi secret code, he was prosecuted for being homosexual, locked in jail and was administered hormones until he grew breasts and committed suicide. It is interesting to note that the initial version of the game upon which Turing based his test has to do with judging which of the two interviewees is the man, and which one is the woman. Is it not possible that Turing was envisioning intellect free from sexuality?

(On a side note: Turing himself in the 1950 paper ?Computer machinery and intelligence? where he proposed the test ? and gave birth to AI - posed as a viable objection to the test, between others, the existence of ESP for which he considered that there is evidence)


Edited by raytrace (06/20/05 02:07 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: mucousal or mystical? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4316901 - 06/20/05 02:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i was wondering? if i suggested kissmet to kiss my ass, which ?emotion? would it exhibit?

anger?... disgust?... positive valence?... high arousal maybe?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4316943 - 06/20/05 02:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As I have brought up several times, 50-100 years ago, a machine that could play world class chess would have been considered intelligent. When that milestone was breached, the machine was NOT declared intelligent.

sorry Swami, you're slightly off-topic. consciousness is discussed, not intelligence.

this argument by the way is typically used by strong AI proponents to keep their arrogant egos intact, and really means nothing.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4316983 - 06/20/05 02:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I suggest you read Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?".

Also, Roger Penrose, one of the best physicists currently alive has dealt in depth with the matter of machine consciousness. Check out "The Emperor's New Mind" and the follow up "Shadows of the Mind".

You know the tale with the emperor's new clothes? Machine consciousness is that emperor's new mind


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: moog]
    #4317016 - 06/20/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I believe the computer systems we use everyday have a small degree of consciousness

There is no reason to assume that, unless if you assume that there is consciousness everywhere. Objectively, computer systems are in no way different from any other piece of the universe. Information processing is just the human interpretation of the causally linked events occurring in that designated part of the universe we call a "computer".

How can information exist independently of an observer that would interpret it? Information is meaning. Meaning depends on context. By changing the context, information disappears.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317041 - 06/20/05 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and why does complexity have to do with consciousness?

the earth is quite complex, does it mean it's conscious?

if i tie a rope in knots over knots over knots... which is the point when it will become conscious?


Edited by raytrace (06/20/05 02:52 PM)


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317077 - 06/20/05 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

3rd sheep-shank after the 1/2 hitch squareknot.


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Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317088 - 06/20/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Summing up consciousness till now:

Theories: many
Evidence: none


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317092 - 06/20/05 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

can you please draw that?


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317104 - 06/20/05 03:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



It's untightened so as to show you its inner workings. That is the knot that will take over the world in 2012. I suggest you buy a sturdy pair of fiskars to prepare for the coming Armageddon.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317109 - 06/20/05 03:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

come on man, just a draft sketch... just so that we all have something consciouss on our screen... :rolleyes:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317114 - 06/20/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oh, wait you just did! what's its name?


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317148 - 06/20/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

poor guy... being conscious at random times... in several screens simultaneously... s/he must be having a personality crisis


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317153 - 06/20/05 03:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, knot v3.8 (codename: jenkins) tried to strangle itself just yesterday but the noose only added to its powers.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: orechron]
    #4317168 - 06/20/05 03:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

LOL!  :grin:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317469 - 06/20/05 05:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

sorry Swami, you're slightly off-topic. consciousness is discussed, not intelligence.

The comparative argument holds. Whatever criterion is proposed to demonstrate consciousness will shift as soon as it is met and people will say, "That proves nothing!" and a higher goal post will be set.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4317503 - 06/20/05 05:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever criterion is proposed to demonstrate consciousness will shift as soon as it is met
such is the nature of illusive things...


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: raytrace]
    #4317520 - 06/20/05 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



uhm.... wasting time and energy.... doing.... what?


screw kissmet. get a kitten. feel the warmth.


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Re: mucousal or mystical? [Re: raytrace]
    #4317821 - 06/20/05 06:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i was wondering? if i suggested kissmet to kiss my ass, which ?emotion? would it exhibit?




:rolleyes:




.


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Re: mucousal or mystical? [Re: Asante]
    #4318186 - 06/20/05 08:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

a clean ass deserves raised eyebrows
otherwise a most indignant glance would be suitable.

more needs to be revealed.
we are so in the dark


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Ped]
    #4318191 - 06/20/05 08:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That complex models such as human beings are subject to the same governing influences as more simple models like objects or computer games: how does this in any way eliminate the idea of a mystical quality to conciousness? That conciousness may in fact be an emergent property of complexity: how is this not the among the most mystical ideas ever pondered?

By mystical I mean supernatural, metaphysical, magical... as in an incorporeal soul that cannot be described by an equation, cannot be detected, and is exempt from the rules of physics.

I agree that conciousness is an amazing thing, but it is a function of ordinary physics and not metaphysics, or so the evidence so far suggests.

People like to ask where does beautiful art come from if it can't be described by an equation. I say it can't be described by an equation yet and point to the beautiful Mandelbrot fractal that is arguably as beautiful as any artwork, but 100% a function of an equation. There is no magic involved.

Check out the Barnsley Fern. It too is 100% ordinary, non-magical mathematics:



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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: mucousal or mystical? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4318218 - 06/20/05 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

a clean ass deserves raised eyebrows
otherwise a most indignant glance would be suitable.
.
more needs to be revealed.
we are so in the dark





dammit Redgreenvines. I'm a writer and I REALLY admire posts like that one you made. You've got it down to an artform.  :heart::thumbup:


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4318766 - 06/20/05 11:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know if you are reading my old threads, channeling the Swami energy, or if we just think alike, but I have previously brought up both the Boids program and posted a picture of the Barnsley fern.

Hmmm...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/21/05 06:36 AM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4318981 - 06/21/05 12:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Must be the mind-control...


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Diploid]
    #4319673 - 06/21/05 05:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

what happened to the epidemic
of nicholson avatars
that was proof of something.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4319703 - 06/21/05 06:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The Nichol-virus has a life of 48 hours.


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Re: Evidence Suggesting Consciousness Is An Emergent Property Of Complex Biology... And Not Mystical [Re: Swami]
    #4319738 - 06/21/05 08:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

you must be Nichol-Kidding man.


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