Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Kratom Eye
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color
    #24302138 -

In another thread the idea of ancient lore giving rise to modern science  has a grain of truth, but so much terrible baggage that I think it is important to look at the problem of fake saints and unrecognized buddhas.

While it is not difficult to ordain a monk who wants to attain enlightenment, there is no way to see the true progress or attainment. This has been shrouded in confusing and unproven statements about what the attainments are and how they can be established.
Status within the orders. more often than not, are based upon politics and favor rather than sainthood.

IN the west many cannonized saints had dubious charms but they fill the gaps that are needed in the churches. Creepy things that are not at all inspiring and reliquaries of no worth at all rise in this kind of secret knowledge and (fake) righteousness.

The regime of meditation is undoubtedly excellent, but all the buddhas and saints that have any real merit have made their individual discoveries and connections on their own. They lack scientific explanations for what they have become and what they do, so they allow the residue of their cults to explain thin unexplained.

Some of buddhist lore is actually exciting to me; and some is highly complementary to neurophysiology, such as citta, and skanda, (mind moments and sensory contributions to the moments of aggregate consciousness).

A few social lessons and morality are also relevant - embedded deeply in each religion, often obscured with crap. Many saints in their day have been scientific, and their works have been inspirational to scientists in the modern era as well.

It is important not to equate all old writings with wisdom or even knowledge, and it is also important to scrutinize and resist anything that claims to be eternal or infinite, or god-like.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24302157 -

God is a crack head.

I feel a Russain invasion is going to occur.  They want coca that badly.

I know spirits that want to come back but the work sucks.  Not sure how I killed that many.

We all hate DMT so much.  Like eating a gun or a moth ball.

I have a hard time getting drunk but wine is a bit better.

You have no idea how people hate me.

How we save this country is a mystery.  I sorta fast DMT sometimes like the mystery of black holes.

Osho was a crystal eating cock sucker.  He gives me delusions.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #24302273 -

Interesting post, rgv. Morel, you probably ought to talk to somebody. Your posts lately have been OT, and insanely bizarre. I read in another sub about how you just tripped. Probably not the best idea right now. If you want to talk, I would be happy to receive a pm. Please take care.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24302343 -

With what eyes might we apprehend the guru? What rubric do we hold them to?

Is there any room in your perspective for distinguishing enlightened action from enlightened beings? Or is the saint one in whom the flux of ignorance and clarity has fallen firmly to the transparent side?

That which casts no shadow remains unrecognized...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #24302368 -

It's impossible to hide God.

They always find me


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24302415 -

Like I said, some things are not easily detectable, recognizable, or even possible, but if you want to be a buddha or saint, you have to follow your own path, and little of the ancient writings need to mean much along that way.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24303868 -

redgreenvines said:
Status within the orders. more often than not, are based upon politics and favor rather than sainthood.


Interesting point. I have noticed that even in "non-hierarchical" religious orders, like Buddhism, there is still a political hierarchy because the order needs donors etc. to keep operating.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: viktor]
    #24303891 -

'zackly


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24303920 -

do you think there is a reason for their rarity?

do you think their rarity is obstructing anything?  assisting anything?

does the rarity of this kind of individual say more than the individual him/her self?


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: PhantomFrequency]
    #24303945 -

I think it relates to the dissemination of ancient fake wisdom instead of emphasizing and promoting functional parameters for the personal quest.

bad politics and probably also a dirth of people who really care.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: PhantomFrequency]
    #24303955 -

PhantomFrequency said:
do you think there is a reason for their rarity?

do you think their rarity is obstructing anything?  assisting anything?

does the rarity of this kind of individual say more than the individual him/her self?


I think the problem is in recognising such a person.

If one started posting here, how would we know?

And if you already know how to recognise one, why aren't you acting as one?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: viktor]
    #24303965 -

Quote:
And if you already know how to recognise one, why aren't you acting as one?


hmmm, thats actually a good question, even outside of this context.  on the other hand, I can recognize many things that I choose not to act similar too.  recognition doesn't = action.

I don't think we could recognize through posting.  I couldn't anyway.  truth is in action for me, not in words.


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24304019 -

viktor said:
PhantomFrequency said:
do you think there is a reason for their rarity?

do you think their rarity is obstructing anything?  assisting anything?

does the rarity of this kind of individual say more than the individual him/her self?


I think the problem is in recognising such a person.

If one started posting here, how would we know?

And if you already know how to recognise one, why aren't you acting as one?


well isn't that just it,
all of us could be as buddhas, yet unrecognized by each other. recognition is beleaguered mostly by preconceived notions.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24304090 -

do you think that becoming a buddha or bodhisattva (I'm not too familiar with the difference in terms, so forgive me on that if I'm using them wrong) is something to strive for?

or do you think the striving towards that is just as old and played out as the wisdom that speaks of it?

because I think to be fair, if we are going to question the authenticity of any number of buddhas, we should also question the authenticity of the buddha state itself, otherwise we aren't being intellectually honest with ourselves.


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: PhantomFrequency]
    #24304183 -

we should question our own authenticity, and we should strive to transcend ourselves. That is the buddha path. The bodhisattva or saintliness difference is a distinction akin to pin head angel density, you have to buy into quite a bit of metaphor before any meaning gels.

Because of lack of clear meaning, I don't think it is a worthwhile direction to attempt evaluation of the buddhahood or sainthood of others, though it is fair to be impressed with random acts of kindness as well as consistency of compassion or grace or clarity or whatever.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24304514 -

redgreenvines said:
While it is not difficult to ordain a monk who wants to attain enlightenment, there is no way to see the true progress or attainment. This has been shrouded in confusing and unproven statements about what the attainments are and how they can be established.
Status within the orders. more often than not, are based upon politics and favor rather than sainthood.


The regime of meditation is undoubtedly excellent, but all the buddhas and saints that have any real merit have made their individual discoveries and connections on their own.



Where are you coming up with these claims? 

In the East as well as the West though different terminology is used, there seems to be quite an emphasis on surrender to the Guru, be it a formless "Universal Guru" or a Guru as another human being who has been said to have attained the insights the seeker seeks.  I think the merits of the student or teacher can be observed upon the meeting of the two minds.  I believe in the Zen tradition, the insight of a student's attainment can be observed by the teacher in the student's response to a koan and there's a similar albeit more shrouded approach within Vajrayana Buddhism with student and teacher.

I think seeking the counsel and insight of others who have been on whatever path you are treading is a much more practical way of going about attaining knowledge and wisdom compared to doing everything on your own albeit you still have to put in the work which will always be the greatest influence to any attainment.

Bridging this concept to a more Western approach to knowledge and wisdom, I think great philosophers, artists and scientists generally are lifted onto the saddle of insight from the works of those who came before them.  They study and practice in their field from those who have contributed to the development of the field and imitate the works and processes of their chosen teachers until their process and imitation is fluid enough to be communicable to others.  This communication begins at the infancy of the student's quest, though it may not be intelligible to anyone intitially, and is blended throughout the entire process of imitation with the nature specific to the individual until their communication and imitation attains a certain level of uniqueness which is of the individual yet maintains a relateability to the works of their teachers which then is considered the individual's own work or idea.

Edited by cez (05/08/17 03:46 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24304572 -

There are still some gems to discover in ancient teachings.
The things to discover are 'intuitive' knowledge, of people who scientifically knew almost nothing and so needed to fall back on their own conclusions and examinations of the world around them.
Combined with a simplicity of surrounding informations. Imagine, no internet, no television or radio... if you needed some info, you needed to go out and meet people or read some books... The distraction level was low, so all in all,
their ancient musings about whatever they regarded has really still some gems to be discovered. Of course it needs to be get rid of all the crap which layered on top of them over the years.
Things we don't understand anymore still can be hidden in plain sight in front of us, until we can understand them maybe again in the future.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: cez]
    #24305058 -

I get it from my association with monks who have returned to the west from the east. 4 out of 5 monks are not interested in meditation, 4 out of 5 abbots are career administrators and have little skill in the pursuit of anything more than pedestrian piety.
not that it is a bad thing to follow rules and behave, I am not at all happy with violence and terrorism.
It's just that, most of the eggs laid by the holy chickens are duds.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24305061 -

what you say is true.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the rarity of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and of real 'saints' in any color [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24305496 -

The Guru is just the Self. The Self teaches its way to Itself since it is immutable, impermeable. Kind of like a stream or a current can't flow the other direction, but if someone feels your stream, they are auto-corrected, they turn towards the Self.

Ultimately it is just conditioning and your thoughts up until now that determines your path. If we were raised correctly we'd all be Buddhas.

There are Buddhas everywhere in India. In fact a huge percentage of the population is in touch with the notion of Self.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Truth about the Buddha..
( 1 2 all )		 lucid 3,359 36 12/01/03 04:06 AM
by castaway
* Does God Exist? part one
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )		 MentalHygene 17,230 126 02/22/02 08:26 PM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* The Buddha Holds Up A Flower Anonymous 865 8 12/15/02 07:10 AM
by 11polakie11
* Saint's Dried Blood Liquefies in 'Miracle' Anonymous 713 1 09/20/02 09:37 PM
by Swami
* Would Buddha lock his bike?
( 1 2 3 all )		 chunder 4,072 50 11/09/03 07:44 PM
by Lightningfractal
* What is a modern Bodhisattva daytripper23 2,162 16 07/02/08 05:05 PM
by deranger
* All Souls - All Saints MarkostheGnostic 963 6 11/01/02 05:26 PM
by Ini
* The Bodhisattva Vow Cherk 1,058 11 03/24/06 09:13 AM
by leery11

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,820 topic views. 3 members, 2 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.04 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 18 queries.