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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Novelty: Fundamental To Reality
    #20746746 -

Novelty must be present in the universe if uncertainty is to be.

Since we observe quantum uncertainty, I wonder if this means that novelty is fundamental to quantum mechanics.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx]
    #20746774 -

:tmckenna:


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx]
    #20746827 -

To be fair, uncertainty in quantum mechanics only means that the change in momentum and the change in position of a quantum particle (e.g. an electron, photon, etc.) cannot be known precisely together.  The momentum can be known with certainty, and the position can be known with certainty, but both cannot be measured precisely together.  That's all it means.  We can understand the system very precisely, in reality.

As a matter of fact, there is no uncertainty principle in Feynman's path-integral reformulation of quantum theory, or in Bohm's ontological interpretation of the wave function. 

The uncertainty principle is much less interesting in reality than the sensational assumptions surrounding it, and to impute it with anything other than mathematical substance is spurious.  Any mystical attribution to this superfluous principle is metaphorical at best.  It is not an argument for novelty.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20746860 -

DividedQuantum said:
To be fair, uncertainty in quantum mechanics only means that the change in momentum and the change in position of a quantum particle (e.g. an electron, photon, etc.) cannot be known precisely together.  The momentum can be known with certainty, and the position can be known with certainty, but both cannot be measured precisely together.  That's all it means.  We can understand the system very precisely, in reality.

As a matter of fact, there is no uncertainty principle in Feynman's path-integral reformulation of quantum theory, or in Bohm's ontological interpretation of the wave function. 

The uncertainty principle is much less interesting in reality than the sensational assumptions surrounding it, and to impute it with anything other than mathematical substance is spurious.  Any mystical attribution to this superfluous principle is metaphorical at best.  It is not an argument for novelty.


well that clears things up a bit, thanks


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx]
    #20746889 -

I was just thinking, if uncertainty exists than so must novelty, which is what gives rise to uncertainty.


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Edited by hTx (10/24/14 10:42 AM)

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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx]
    #20746915 -

Uncertainty gives rise to uncertainty. :elmo:


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20746931 -

Are you sure?


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: Sun King]
    #20746944 -

Of course not. Or is it?


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20747005 -

the hidden variable eh quantum?

but couldn't this variable be novelty?


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx]
    #20747176 -

"For already in classical mechanics there was indeterminability from a practical point of view." -- Feynman


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx]
    #20747191 -

Hidden variables removing, for example, the wave-particle duality, would describe a deeper reality out of which contemporary quantum theory arises as a special case -- much like Newtonian mechanics being reduced to by quantum theory.  In some sense, a teleological principle could be at work, if the implicate-explicate framework were to be scientifically verified.  The mathematics for all of this are already worked out, but as yet we do not have experimental evidence that can say one way or another.  John von Neumann was famous for demonstrating that hidden variables cannot exist if quantum theory is to remain internally consistent; however, his thesis was shown to make a crucial assumption which was not empirically demonstrable, and, contrary to many people's knowledge, his proof was therefore shown to be incorrect.  So there is every reason to think hidden variables are possible, although as yet our experimental techniques are simply not refined to the point where we can say one way or another.  The door is definitely still open.  But it remains only a hypothesis, and not an experimentally validated theory.

So we can all hold strong opinions either way.  :smile:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: hTx] * 1
    #20749516 -

Regardless of its application to quantum physics, I think the ontological status of novelty is an interesting question.  I'm personally inclined to the idea that there is something fundamental about novelty.  In fact, to explain existence itself, you really need two things:  novelty and habit.  Habit seals novelty into enduring objects.  Novelty transcends objects as they are, and allows for the creation of new objects.  However, I recognize that this is not the only metaphysical option.

The mainstream view in science seems to be that novelty is a kind of illusion: that every event follows in a linear, deterministic manner from everything that occurred before.  This is not, itself, a scientific theory or even a hypothesis, but rather a background assumption.

Then there is another view, known as the "block universe," which says that time itself is an illusion, and all events exist simultaneously as one totality.  This view is associated with such figures as Parmenides, St. Augustine, J.J. McTaggart, and most famously, Albert Einstein.  It is certainly consistent with his special theory of relativity and its suggestion that time is simply another dimension of space.  However, it doesn't need to be the case in order for the predictions of that theory to pan out.

I don't think any of these view can yet be proven scientifically, though I think there are good philosophical arguments on all sides.  I prefer the view that novelty is fundamental because I think it's the most consistent with our lived experience of freedom and choice and surprises.  I hold to what Whitehead calls the "philosophy of organism," which holds that our own lived experience as organisms should be the starting point for our inferences about the rest of the world, rather than the mechanistic Cartesian view, which takes man-made machines as the point of inference by which we understand ourselves.


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Re: Novelty: Fundamental To Reality [Re: Silversoul]
    #20754387 -

heizenberg always makes me think of โ€ he jessie pinkman principle


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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