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Invisiblekaiowas
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controlling reality question
    #2986733 - 08/10/04 03:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

i have seen here a buch of times here in the past week about controlling reality.. what does this exactly mean?

now when I think of reality, I think of two distinct versions. one would be the enternal reality, and one would be the internal one.

which on can you control?

are the dependant on each other?

which one would you depend on the most for your happiness?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2986751 - 08/10/04 03:36 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

imo, the 'external' reality is the collective consciousness..

The reality you control is YOUR reality, the way you choose to perceive things, the thoughts you choose to make, the actions you choose to take. All these things effect your reality. That is your 'internal' reality. How you see the world.

Now I think that to a certain extent, you can control the 'external' reality, if your reality influences or rubs off on others.

But ultimately, your reality is in your own hands. And you create that reality by your thoughts and actions.

Are they dependant on one another? I would say like everything, they are certainly connected... but not dependant.

Without a doubt I would choose the 'internal' reality for my happiness. For I cannot control the 'collective' reality, but I can control my own, and hope others do the same.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2987015 - 08/10/04 04:20 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
i have seen here a buch of times here in the past week about controlling reality.. what does this exactly mean?

now when I think of reality, I think of two distinct versions.  one would be the enternal reality, and one would be the internal one.




Right, there are many realities in fact.  There's mine, yours, animals etc.  Then there is the reality that all subsequent realities depend on and are within.  Our realities are a distorted version of reality.

Quote:

which on can you control?




To master your own inner world is a skill in itself.  Most people can think and visualize, this is a part of it.

Now, the mind is restless and unbridled.  Something that I grew up with is not being able to slow my mind down.  If I immagined a girl jumping rope, I couldn't get it to stop.  It would continue at my frustration that I couldn't get the repeating vision out of my head.  You can master this inner world, but it takes practice and training is helpful.

I am studying and practicing my will over the world around me at this moment and I am positive that anything is possible. :smile:  I have full confidance I will make progress.

http://www.psipog.net/articles.php?cat=101


Quote:

are the dependant on each other?




Our reality is independant of the real reality, however our realities are subsequently based on our jaded glimpse of the real reality.  I don't think real reality depends on our realities at all. 

Our inner reality is based on what we can sence and anything outside of that which exsists in our mind is possible with immagination.  The immagination is part of the wildness of the mind in that the mind can go beyond the confines of the external reality with it. 

Anybody can imagine how immagination is a powerful tool.

Our immaginations make it possible for new things to be introduced into the real reality but more readily into the realities of others which are adapted to be like sponges.

Our realities are like trickles of the real reality.

Quote:

which one would you depend on the most for your happiness?




Your inner reality is the source of your emotions.  Emotions radiate and moods can pass from person to person.  Whether the exchange of emotion occures is in words, pherimones or "psychic energy;"  it does happen.  How effected by your outer world depends on the intensity level of the stimulus and you're natural responce (which depends on genes, psych, wealth, anything about you, really).

Edited by MAGnum (08/10/04 04:26 PM)

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: MAGnum]
    #2987189 - 08/10/04 04:44 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

soft determinism

www.dictionary.com

do you decide who your parents are?


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: BleaK]
    #2987812 - 08/10/04 06:36 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

well see my whole big post was about this. In order to control external reality you must realize that it is internally created. That said, both what we think of as internal and external reality can be easily controlled, even without a life shattering revelation.

Internal reality, the world of thoughts and emotions, can certainly be controlled. Whenever i find myself feeling angry or depressed i stop, say 'my life is short, and im not wasting it being unhappy' than i refocus my attention on something that makes me glad. Thoughts to can be analyzed and controlled.

As for external reality, it can be controlled as easily as picking up a ball and throwing it. You decide something in your mind and then you impose it on the outside world. The DEGREE of control however varies , depending on the cosmology or paradigm your working in.

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2988005 - 08/10/04 07:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think there is an external. External is only an internal idea, as our whole reality is internal (based around our unique perception).


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Offlineferago2
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: deff]
    #2988151 - 08/10/04 08:02 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What causes our external ideas then? Try as hard as you can, you can't simply imagine a world as detailed as we experience every day.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: BleaK]
    #2988234 - 08/10/04 08:13 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
do you decide who your parents are?




That's debatable.. some might say that a soul chooses their parents based on the type of lessons they need to learn, and which couples who have conceived would be best suited for that mission.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Shroomism]
    #2988302 - 08/10/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"What causes our external ideas then? Try as hard as you can, you can't simply imagine a world as detailed as we experience every day. "

i dont think ive ever disagreed so strongly (in the last few weeks anyways) with a single sentance.

Firstly, we dont have to 'try' at all, because we are 'imagining' this world already. Secondly, every single night we dream 3 or 4 dreams that are totally internally created yet just as vivid and detailed as waking life. (the key is remembering)

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Offlineferago2
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2988447 - 08/10/04 08:56 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"What causes our external ideas then? Try as hard as you can, you can't simply imagine a world as detailed as we experience every day. "

i dont think ive ever disagreed so strongly (in the last few weeks anyways) with a single sentance.

Firstly, we dont have to 'try' at all, because we are 'imagining' this world already. Secondly, every single night we dream 3 or 4 dreams that are totally internally created yet just as vivid and detailed as waking life. (the key is remembering)




Saying we're imagining this world, without any backing statements, does nothing to persuade me. The thing with dreams... you may not recognize a dream at the time, but when you look back on it, while awake, you certainly realize it was a dream, and furthermore that it was filled with inconsistancies (My house isn't really next store to jurassic park, as one example from a past dream).

Let me put it simply... imagine a primary new color. It's impossible... perhaps there is a real physical world with limits and consistent rules out there.

If the whole world exists simply in my imagination, how do you explain consensus reality? How are we both imagining this conversation?

I'd also like some proof, or at least reasons, why you think everything we experience is simply imagined. I'm curious why you think that, and what reasons support that.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2988486 - 08/10/04 09:02 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

kaiowas writes:

now when I think of reality, I think of two distinct versions. one would be the enternal reality, and one would be the internal one.

This boils down to the most fundamental of all philosophical premises in the discipline of metaphysics -- primacy of existence or primacy of consciousness. The acceptance of one or the other is the very first and most fundamental step required to build a philosophy.

The former premise accepts as axiomatic (based on sensory evidence) that reality (the observable universe) exists and would continue to exist regardless of whether there were any conscious entities around to apprehend it.

The latter premise accepts as axiomatic (while rejecting sensory input) that there is no such thing as an independent reality -- that if there were no consciousness there would be nothing else either, just blankness.

Since the second premise (primacy of consciousness) philosophically is essentially identical to solipsism, I have found there is no point in trying to hold discussions with those who believe in primacy of consciousness. What's the point? I'm just a figment of their imagination anyway.

pinky


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Offlineferago2
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Phred]
    #2988568 - 08/10/04 09:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Heh, way to go bringing in all the thought that's been put into this stuff. It's good to remember that great minds have been discussing these ideas for centuries and that they're not unique to the internet or to drug use. Shame it's impossible to argue with solipsists though, but there are a few points you can make. Lemme think about it and see what I can come up with.

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: ferago2]
    #2988679 - 08/10/04 09:42 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"If the whole world exists simply in my imagination, how do you explain consensus reality? How are we both imagining this conversation?"

You don't know that. Consensus reality is the biggest assumption you can make :smile:

"I'd also like some proof, or at least reasons, why you think everything we experience is simply imagined. I'm curious why you think that, and what reasons support that."

This entire experience is internally created. While you may seek for external proof, you are really just changing your internal perception. Think of this for a second. Everything you know as true does not *actually* exist. Colours exist only as our perception to the light waves. Sounds are our perception of air vibrations. These are not real, and that's the proof. A radio picks up radio waves that are already flowing through the air whether or not a radio is present. It "converts" these to sound waves, our ears convert those to a neurological signal, and our brains create the perception of the sound of the radio. So what's real?

The reason for consensus reality is that our perceptions overlap. We are all very similar considering we are all humans. Our common human perceptions, such as "external" senses, are what most people refer to as consensus reality. That is not objective reality though.


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Edited by deff (08/10/04 09:44 PM)

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Offlineferago2
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: deff]
    #2988688 - 08/10/04 09:44 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I don't claim that we don't perceive things in certain ways... we have to translate the outside world to the language of our brains somehow. Even if we see light as "light" and not as vibrations of energy at a certain frequency, that doesn't mean the vibration isn't there, only that our way of perceiving it is determined by our sense apperati.

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: ferago2]
    #2988713 - 08/10/04 09:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, so your idea of an external reality would therefore be impossible for any subjective being to percieve. In which case I agree. Although this brings about the issue of perception=existance.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: ferago2]
    #2988729 - 08/10/04 09:56 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Just because you are sencing it doesn't neccessarilly prove exsistance either.

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: MAGnum]
    #2988734 - 08/10/04 09:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Existence an undefinable word. Or atleast I've yet to hear a good attempt at it.


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Offlineferago2
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: deff]
    #2988760 - 08/10/04 10:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I would say that not _all_ observations are subjective. There are different types, maybe sense experience is one with subjective tendancies, because of the differences of function in the psychology and physiology between people, but there is certainly the ability to draw objective conclusions about the nature of the real world. I can be certain that I am typing on my computer now and it's not just my subjective perception that says I am. etc

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: ferago2]
    #2988776 - 08/10/04 10:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Think outside of just human perception. Different species have larger differences between their perceptions. Therefore, it is undoubtably subjective.

One can get lost in trying to escape subjective reality, it's no fun.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: ferago2]
    #2989153 - 08/11/04 12:21 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A radio picks up radio waves that are already flowing through the air whether or not a radio is present. It "converts" these to sound waves, our ears convert those to a neurological signal, and our brains create the perception of the sound of the radio. So what's real?





Well, dominoes are real.

All you described can be summed up as just a crazy line of dominoes tipping over, and each domino along the way is quite real.

There's no magic involved in hearing or seeing something, it's chemical and electrical organic machinery responding to stimuli. hehe.. stimuli.

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2989171 - 08/11/04 12:26 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I know it's real, because it is percieved. That's as real as anything we'll ever know, including our own definition of 'real'.

I just was trying to explain how our own experience, or reality, is completely unique to our genetic make-up, and therefore very subjective. This means there is no consensus reality besides the common similiarities between most humans' perception. A lot of people use "real" to describe something existing outside of our own consciousness (ie- versus imaginary), which clearly is not the case :smile:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: ferago2]
    #2989403 - 08/11/04 01:37 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Saying we're imagining this world, without any backing statements, does nothing to persuade me."
right now im not trying to persuade, im just stating a belief. For a longer, more detailed attempt at explaining myself see the thread: Im back and the lid is blown off

"The thing with dreams... you may not recognize a dream at the time, but when you look back on it, while awake, you certainly realize it was a dream, and furthermore that it was filled with inconsistancies (My house isn't really next store to jurassic park, as one example from a past dream)."

You realize it was a dream in that it  was a different state than waking life. People always misunderstand me on this, Im not saying that Dreams and Waking life are the same thing, im saying they are both equally real, and both internally created. Saying that dreams are inconsistent is not evidence they are not real, it is just a qualitative differance between waking and sleeping dreams.

By the same logic you could say, the grass is not real because it is not blue like the sky (the dream is not real because it is not consistent like waking life)


"Let me put it simply... imagine a primary new color. It's impossible... perhaps there is a real physical world with limits and consistent rules out there. "

nope, nothing whatsoever is consistent, especially colour. Colour, like everything else, exists only as a function of perception. To a dog, the sky is a shade of grey. To you, it is a shade of blue. For a 'colourblind' person (a misleading term) it may be green. For a parrot, as far as we can know, it may be a colour we dont even have a word for.

"If the whole world exists simply in my imagination, how do you explain consensus reality? How are we both imagining this conversation? "

the problem is insisting that their is only one 'true' world. Although damn near everything me and you experience and believe is totally different, as well as the way we experience (and thus we are quite literally 'in different worlds') we are still capable of exchanging information between those worlds.

"I'd also like some proof, or at least reasons, why you think everything we experience is simply imagined. I'm curious why you think that, and what reasons support that. "

again, read 'im back and the lid is blown off' its alot more indepth

Peace
:thumbup:

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Onlinedeff
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2989445 - 08/11/04 01:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yup, you need a common reference between the two very individualized "bubbles" of perception for communication. Because we are all the same species and share a lot of genetic similarities, we are able to communicate on a sufficient enough level. This misleads people into thinking that the realities are actually the same though, which is entirely false.


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Offlinecleaner
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2990001 - 08/11/04 06:23 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
every single night we dream 3 or 4 dreams that are totally internally created yet just as vivid and detailed as waking life. (the key is remembering)




I have a problem there, its not remembering that bothers me its the state of my dreams, its like in my dreams im constantly wasted, its like cruising waking life on a bottle of hard liquer or DXM, its all messy, very messy. Whys is that happens, and no i dont drink before i go to sleep

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: cleaner]
    #2992196 - 08/11/04 05:19 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

like i say, dreams are like waking life. When we are not aware and lacking control, we go through the dream like drunks, lacking control, clarity and recolection. Lucidity can also be attained however, leading to incredible vividness, recall, and control.

this is true of waking life as well. You can either flow through life unaware and helpless, or you can make it dance to your tune.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2992885 - 08/11/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Lucidity can also be attained however, leading to incredible vividness, recall, and control."

Sometimes you can have a lucid dream that remains blurred and nonsensical.. sometimes, you know you are dreaming, but only wish to watch it play out as a delighted observer. I think that's a lot more rewarding than taking active control of what you dream, and it's certainly a lot more restful.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2994195 - 08/12/04 12:42 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"which on can you control?"

If they're not one and the same, then I could control both to certain extents. For instance, I can hear a question that my internal reality does not contain the answer to, and then do some research and control my internal reality to realize this answer.

"are they dependant on each other?"

If they're not one and the same, they are dependant upon one another. For external reality to be "controlled" by anything, there has to be a "controller." I would imagine that this "controller" probably has an internal reality with all its external plans laid out. For there to be a "controller," there is most likely an external reality for it to control.

"Which one would you depend on the most for your happiness?"

I can depend on my internal reality much more than external forces, because so many other life-forms have the same amount of control (and some have WAY more..) than I do over this external reality. My internal reality is more under my control than the external IMO, therefore I can depend on it more.

However, those who have more influence over my external world can indeed change my internal world, and already have...


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineDegot846
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Strumpling]
    #2994253 - 08/12/04 12:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I think some external reality can change the way you view reality altogether.
Do you ever wonder how much of what you percieve is from suggestion? IE: when someone says a cloud looks like something, before you even see it your looking for something, and immediatly notice something that was suggested. Taking this further, our preception can only come from related perception.

How much of your reality is based on your own perception? Sort of like the question; how would you explain the color blue to someone whos been blind all their lives? How much is based on your own thoughts and perception? Can you change your perception to one that has not been suggested to you?


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-Tom

Edited by Degot846 (08/12/04 12:58 AM)

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Degot846]
    #2994298 - 08/12/04 01:10 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah what I'm saying is that a whole lot of my "external reality" is controlled by other people's "internal realities" expressing themselves.

Just like how I can say "POOPY! POOPY!" That came from my internal reality, but it travelled through both of our external realities and is now a part of YOUR internal reality as well.

This is why people with a lot of control over external reality (ie. governments, religions, Marylin Manson) can make it seem like they're not even external.

Like I was raised Catholic. I'm not a Catholic anymore, but I was raised with a strong sheep-like belief in God. I, for many years, though this was a part of my internal reality. It took a long time for me to realize that it was implanted by other people's internal views, or other people's internal agendas, not really implanted by objective obsarvation of external reality.

This is why I find it hard to separate "external" and "internal" realities, because they mix up with eachother as soon as there is more than one person around, because now there are two separate "internal" realities influencing both the objective world, and the "internal" reality of the other person.

What a fucking mess. Spiderman is God, by the way.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineDegot846
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Strumpling]
    #2994324 - 08/12/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

To quote the dude:
" Thats interesting man, thats fucking interesting"

makes you wonder whose puppet you really are huh?

btw: superman would wreck spiderman but thats another thread in itself.


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-Tom

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Degot846]
    #2994366 - 08/12/04 01:40 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah its difficult to tell where "objectivity" and "collective subjectivity" collide.

Like religions aren't really creating anything in "external reality," but they have a collective subjective that does so much to other people's "internal realities" that this collective of similar subjectivity can seem like an objective reality.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Strumpling]
    #2994385 - 08/12/04 01:50 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah its difficult to tell where "objectivity" and "collective subjectivity" collide.

Please elaborate with a specific example.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDegot846
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Swami]
    #2994435 - 08/12/04 02:18 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

How much of your response to life is your own, and how much of it is something your mimicing indirectly, or directly, all the while thinking its your own unique response? Do you really need an example?


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-Tom

Edited by Degot846 (08/12/04 02:20 AM)

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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Swami]
    #2995739 - 08/12/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

like howabout the definition of a "hot chick."

Ask a random guy on the streets what he thinks makes a woman "really hot."

He will tell you what he's been told. Then he'll go home to his fat ugly wife who he loves more than anything in the world.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineStrangeDays
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2996129 - 08/12/04 03:02 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

everyone controls reality whether they know it or not, or whether they like it or not, and we control our internal reality
and we control our external reality. I believe the external
reality is dependant upon the internal reality. and I believe that
all my thoughts, feeling and emotions will directly affect
the experiences and situations which play out in my daily life.
take a minute and feel your self, and focus more on feeling
the inside of your body, especially in the solar plexus. This feeling is what will shape your external reality, you are always 'feeling' and say for instance I was feeling happy, maybe I would see another happy person and I would smile and say 'hi,' and they would smile and say "hi" and maybe it would be the start of something great. On the other hand, if i was unhappy, maybe I would see another unhappy person, decide to say 'hi'.. maybe they would say 'hi', and maybe we too would talk and become friends those examples are basic examples of the law of attraction. and we can see this law of attraction everywhere Do you ever see 1 blade of grass growing by itself? No, usually you see at least a few together.. but most of the time you see millions together.. clouds are only clouds because there is alot of the same
stuff that makes the cloud in an area.. same thing with countries and cities(humans).. same thing with flowers and plants and animals..
It's the rich person that get's richer and the poor person that gets poorer.. and you see if I was that poor person I would try to cultivate a feeling of being rich.. even though everything around me would disagree.. I would think thoughts
that made me feel like I was rich, I would fantasize about it, I would write about it.. and I would do this on a daily basis.. and I would start feeling rich, I would start feeling that I am
an abundant person, I would start seeing richness and abundance .. maybe after some time of practicing feeling rich I would be on the street one day with this feeling emanating from me and well the law of attraction would do what it does
and I wouldn't be poor for long.

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OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: kaiowas]
    #2996257 - 08/12/04 03:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
i have seen here a buch of times here in the past week about controlling reality.. what does this exactly mean?

now when I think of reality, I think of two distinct versions. one would be the enternal reality, and one would be the internal one.

which on can you control?

are the dependant on each other?

which one would you depend on the most for your happiness?





Depends on which one you allow yourself to depend on, thats if you allow dependance in the first place.

What you experience as "reality"' comes mostly from internal (not to mention controlable) reactions to the outer reality that is not controlable (even though we try so hard to control it).

But if you belive neither, you are in the most control.

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Onlinedeff
just love everyone
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: controlling reality question [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2996286 - 08/12/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

There is no such thing as a level of control. By existing, we are equally in control as anything else, despite our own perceptual and subjective measuring.


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