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InvisibleSclorch
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Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life
    #1183723 - 01/01/03 10:40 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

1. Uncertainty exists.
2. Patterns surface.
3. Recognizing these patterns helps us cope with uncertainty.
4. Sometimes we don't make alot of connections.
5. This can lead to insecurity.
6. Enter: Fear of the Unknown.
7. Sometimes some of us cling to what person X (an "authority" perhaps) says, because it's "working" for person X (according to our perception).
8. Sometimes we'll be willing to die for these perceived rock-solid "truths".
9. Sometimes we do.

I think the real problem occurs somewhere between step 4 and 5.


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183840 - 01/02/03 02:18 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think the problems are steps 8 and 9, even more so if you exchange "we'll be willing to die" for "we'll be willing to kill", as it happens more frequently.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183870 - 01/02/03 03:13 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Step 4......not making connections......I agree that this is the problem......

.....but this creates another problem....if I can make connections better than others.....that leads to Step 7, where people look at me as some kind of "authority" or they accuse me of trying to be an authority......


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Posts: 928
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183883 - 01/02/03 03:24 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i opt for 3. it is up to the individual to develop the tools of reason, concentration and curiousity, that enable one to recognize these patterns more comprehensively.
there are many ways to exercise and develop these faculties.
the ability to reason and concentration are not exactly cherished in modern society.

i liked no.1 - 'uncertainty exists' -

it pays to love uncertainty unconditionally.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183990 - 01/02/03 04:46 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The real problem appears to be not accepting 1.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Swami]
    #1184135 - 01/02/03 06:22 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

IMO.....our sensual interpretation of number two(no pun intended :grin:) is where things begin to break down.Certainly uncertainty exists for humans bound to senses which interpret reality,however in reality there is no uncertainty just ignorance.So we replace uncertainty with ignorance and then we make asssumptions on recognizable patterns based on ignorance and sensuality.A poor base for stablity and concensus.The solution is recognizing that uncertainty is an illusion of the senses caused by ignorance.The unfolding of reality is a certain event,the only true uncertainty is our ability to interpret the patterns we sense.That we hold consensus on the major points of "reality" is testament to our similar wetware performing our interpretation of patterns.In the realm of mind reality is as plastic as quantum theory predicts, in this realm there is no uncertainty,only indeterminism.However our minds recieve material information through our wetware sensors which are bound by patterns we call physical law and thus limit our minds ability to garner information.this creates an illusion of uncertainty when actually it is mere ignorance.Our need for 'Patterns'illustrates our sensualy bound minds battle with ignorance.Everything following #2 is based on purely ignorance and desire :wink: WR 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: whiterasta]
    #1184140 - 01/02/03 06:25 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Certainly uncertainty exists ...

Are you sure?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Swami]
    #1184176 - 01/02/03 06:47 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Well now I can't be certain,certainly,by my own definition, only ignorant and sensually deluded :grin:And since ignorance is bliss and sensual delusion is a goal of many people why aren't more people happy? :wink:WR 


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Swami]
    #1184178 - 01/02/03 06:50 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Uncertainty is only a product of ours minds. I seriously doubt uncertainity exist in many (if any) other living creatures. Really uncertainty does not exist, it's just our unwillingness to accept situations that don't make sense. Understanding, usually walks hand in hand with acceptance. Certainty and uncertainty are just products of humanity, pretenses which all arguments can be rooted too.


Edited by Remy (01/02/03 08:02 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: whiterasta]
    #1184180 - 01/02/03 06:50 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Whiterasta, please watch the sophistry.

Uncertainty is "an illusion of the senses"? You speak with an air of absolutism... but uncertainty isn't just some abstract concept. Uncertainty isn't ignorance... it's UNCERTAINTY. There is no ultimate frame of reference. What good comes of thinking that there is some ultimate frame of reference, but we'll never know it due to the limits of our sensory organs? Yeah, sure... let's blame it on our construction... yeah... THAT'S why people die for what they believe. It's pointless to try to take responsibility for anything. It's not OUR fault.
I don't think so.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184184 - 01/02/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So really uncertainty does not exist

And what about Heisenberg?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184212 - 01/02/03 07:06 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The zeppelin that may or may not have caught on fire?


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184233 - 01/02/03 07:17 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Heisenberg's Uncertainity Principle refers to predicting position and momentum at the same time. It means that the more we know about the position of a piece of matter the less we know about where it is going and vice versa. It still always has a position and a momentum, regardless of our ability to predict the two at the same time. Therefore the uncertainity is only a product of the observer, and does not apply to what we are observing, only to the observer trying to observe it. Thus the observer becomes part of problem. This is applicable to all things in motion, however at the macroscopic scale, we can predict the momentum and position much more accurately because the motions of objects in the macroscopic world (reality) is relative to us, whereas the motion of particles is not, because they exist on a different scale than our own (they act almost independtly to our actions). When we try to make the motion of particles relative to us, we are left with the Uncertainity Principle.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184241 - 01/02/03 07:22 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

It means that the more we know about the position of a piece of matter the less we know about where it is going...

You mean like my girlfriend?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184246 - 01/02/03 07:27 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for the lesson... that wasn't what I was asking.

There's a continuity problem here... you find it.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184247 - 01/02/03 07:28 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I get by #5 with "No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should". Bit of a cop out, perhaps.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184261 - 01/02/03 07:34 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

His cat either died or lived no uncertainty...only ignorance.Sclorch It seems as though in your attempted pragmatic approach you choose to ignore the basic physical nature of the instrument you use to interpret reality.I apologize for approaching an absolute concept as I do not believe in absolutes only interpretations as is my post,An interpretation I have made using my physical senses.I have come to not view these sensual interpretations as absolute or even acurate mearly convenient and consensual.This is why I said that things really break down after the second premise.Patterns do not arise we either create them to serve us or we search them out to explain what our senses have supplied.As I stated the realm of mind is as plastic as reality on a quantum level(indeed mind appears to be a holograph of reality containing all of it's information in potential)but the mind is fed with information from physicaly bound senses failing to acknowledge the duality of this existance confines your arguements to only that which can be determined sensualy.The conflicts which arise from the plasticity of quantum mind and the rigidity of sensual interpretation are the root of uncertainty/ignorance.Not acknowleging that we have this duality and focusing soley on that which is determined sensualy gives rise to statements such as "patterns arise" This is false,we activly search them out and create them to manipulate reality.Patterns do not "arise" anymore than Chaos "arises".Reality simply exists,we exist within it.We interpret it with senses bound by it.Mind exists,we also exist within it,when we understand Mind we will also understand Reality.All else are the "patterns" we have created/assumed to facilitate our existance.Therefore I stand by my original statement that in between the concept of uncertainty/ignorance and the patterns we use to manipulate our perception of reality is where the breakdown has begun.BTW I am doing my interpretations right now through the sensual fog of benadryl so if I am not up to my usual level of obfusication and reflection it is the drug speaking not me Unkay :wink:WR 


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184363 - 01/02/03 08:22 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There's a continuity problem here... you find it.




I assume you are refering to quantum leaps, in which the point from which possible becomes actual relies in the observer, but this is purely theoretical. The possible will become actual, regardless of the observer. Therfore, uncertainty still only exists in the mind of the observer. We live in a continous universe. Accepting that is the first step on the path to a greater understanding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184915 - 01/02/03 11:42 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You've assumed wrong.

Maybe coherence is a better word for it... yeah, it's an issue of systemic coherence.


is the first step on the path to a greater understanding.

Rhetoric like this just makes me laugh. It reminds me of those stupid plaques and framed placards with lame poems or "words of inspiration/motivation/whatever" on them... like: "Reach For the Stars" and there's a watercolor of a child's hand stretched out towards a sky filled with multicolored stars....

I hate it when people have crap like that displayed. It's the kind of crap parents (or grandparents) buy because they don't know their progeny well enough to get them something better.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1185096 - 01/02/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe coherence is a better word for it... yeah, it's an issue of systemic coherence.






Please name a coherent system generated by human deed or thought which maintains coherence separate from human observation or construct.Please exclude consensualy observed "natural" phenomenon and use only examples of human "coherence" at any level.Is coherence a property or construct of ephemeral creatures?


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