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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Eternal Recurrence?
    #20290131 -

To me, the idea of original creation is absurd. The thought that there was nothing and then something breaks the idea of logic and reason.
So I find myself nodding when I read this theory on Eternal Return - The thought that this existence is on loop, and it will play out for eternity, and eventually spit out a mirror imaged universe at massive-but-finite intervals of time.

I love this theory, and may decide to live by it if I can read up more on it.
Anyone else align with this way of thinking or know any good books on it?


*I'm new to this subforum so be kind.*


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Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?

Edited by ModestMouse (07/18/14 10:48 AM)

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20290148 -

No physicist states that something came from nothing. That is generally a straw man meme that Creationists have started.

The idea you have stated is not even close to a theory.


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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20290157 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
The idea you have stated is not even close to a theory.


Elaborate please


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Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20290159 -

Don't be lazy. Look up scientific theory and not the watered down dictionary definition.


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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20290163 -

You're refuting something without providing reason?


That's lazy, not asking someone to make sense of their words.
I've read it for myself, and you're right, it's not scientific theory. While I was wrong, your nitpicking of the words I chose in the OP has gotten the discussion no further. I do appreciate the correction though.


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Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?

Edited by ModestMouse (07/18/14 10:47 AM)

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20290172 -

In 15 years here I have explained what a theory is perhaps a hundred times, yet I do not draw a professor's salary.

It is not nitpicking. There is an enormous gap between an unsubstantiated idea, a hypothesis and a theory. Precision is the hallmark of a disciplined mind. Remember that people can only read what you write and not what you mean.


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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20290179 -

As to your idea of an eternal loop or cycling, it does have some proponents, but current physics says no. It points to eternal expansion ending in the heat death of the universe.


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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20290284 -

Current science indicates that the universe is expanding at an increasing velocity. So the acceleration is positive.
But what is the acceleration of the acceleration? What i'm asking is, is the jerk/impulse of the universe expansion positive or negative?

I don't believe we can measure that yet. My gut is instinctively pointing towards a negative impulse (seems inescapable with our current understanding of gravity). Which would mean that acceleration would eventually become negative, in turn causing velocity to become negative, leading to the coined "Big Crunch".

In order to assert the universe will expand infinitely, you must ensure that it's highest known derivative is positive (correct?), to our knowledge the acceleration is positive, so it will be thought to expand infinitely. I am very curious to see what we discover the state of it's impulse is.


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Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20290296 -

ModestMouse said:
Anyone else align with this way of thinking or know any good books on it?



You should check out Nietzsche, who was one of the most famous proponents of eternal recurrence.  His ideas on it appear in The Gay Science, as well as Thus Spoke Zarathustra.  You might also find good info in some sort of biography of him.

There is also a good article at wikipedia.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20290422 -

The novel The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milun Kundera is thematically about this concept. It says that eternal recurrence is false and explores the consequences on the characters' attempts to find meaning in life. It's a really good book.


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Movie Thread - Reviews! Discussion! Fun!

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20290833 -

DividedQuantum said:
ModestMouse said:
Anyone else align with this way of thinking or know any good books on it?



You should check out Nietzsche, who was one of the most famous proponents of eternal recurrence.  His ideas on it appear in The Gay Science, as well as Thus Spoke Zarathustra.  You might also find good info in some sort of biography of him.

There is also a good article at wikipedia.


“What if a demon were to creep after you one night, in your loneliest loneliness, and say, 'This life which you live must be lived by you once again and innumerable times more; and every pain and joy and thought and sigh must come again to you, all in the same sequence. The eternal hourglass will again and again be turned and you with it, dust of the dust!' Would you throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse that demon? Or would you answer, 'Never have I heard anything more divine'?”

i love this excerpt and carry it on my mind as best as i can. it is more of a perspective on presence and act than anything else but still, a reference on the eternal recurrence by nietzsche.


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:strokebeard:
"if you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading" lao zi

"the angel is free because of his knowledge, the beast because of his ignorance. between the two remains the son of man to struggle." rumi

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: chaos]
    #20290908 -

Demons do not exist.


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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20290997 -

Neither do holy men but we still play along :cool:

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20291232 -

As far I as remember, the singularity model is not out of the way.
But first problem is, as there 'begun' the universe, there also 'begun' time itself, at least for this universe, so it's hard to even speak or think about a 'beginning' as beginning is a time relative word.
The second problem is that we might not have only one universe. There is good chance, and maybe even some physical and mathematical theories that suggest not only a multidimensional reality, but also multidimensional universes. Which some may overlap and some may not influence eachother.

It might be weirder than we could think of, but it also could be that simple that our universe is simply a bubble in the cosmic foam, which arose by a cause, so abstract and far, we may not even be able to ever measure or calculate it, which will simply burst at some time and leaves a blob of nothing behind...

But the idea that it simply reoccurs, in the whole, one by one, seems improbable. there are many little circles anyhow, which is true, but in the movement with time it forms out a spiral, as nothing ever might be the same in the universe anyhow :wink:

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: ModestMouse]
    #20296306 -

Quote:
To me, the idea of original creation is absurd. The thought that there was nothing and then something breaks the idea of logic and reason.


Original creation of what? You mean the universe don't you. You are confusing the universe with reality. The universe is not existence itself but the shadow of existence. If you view the universe as being an illusion than you know that it is nothing. So "creation" doesn't really mean something coming from nothing because in truth it is really nothing.

In the Vedic religion it is maya that creates the universe but the universe is within God. Even "before" creation there is God and the creation (the illusion that is the universe) is latent within God. God is the real substance and can be the cause for the effect that is the universe which is NOTHING but the world of the senses. If you view the world of the senses as an illusion than you realize that what physicsits call nothing is really EVERYTHING and what they call everything is really NOTHING.

Out of THAT NOTHING MIND CAME
Out of Mind came this everything
Out of Mind came Energy
Energy holds this everything
Out of Mind came this Matter
Matter means this everything
This everything is also NOTHING
coming out of THAT Everything

— Meher Baba, from Stay With God by Francis Brabazon

I don't care much for the idea of eternal re-occurrence because the way I see it is that it only appeals to those who view themselves to be their body. They think that if the universe would reoccur exactly as it has now then there body will be recreated and they can exist again. I don't perceive myself as being the body so the concept doesn't appeal to me.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20296670 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Demons do not exist.


change it to 'your momma' and the excerpt won't lose any of it's meaning
:kimjong:


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:strokebeard:
"if you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading" lao zi

"the angel is free because of his knowledge, the beast because of his ignorance. between the two remains the son of man to struggle." rumi

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20296777 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Demons do not exist.


It's amazing to me when people can't see their own bullshit.  I've seen you over and over come down hard on people making claims they can't substantiate with hard evidence and yet at any given time we might find you posting that same nonsense. :facepalm:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: Icelander]
    #20297154 -

We are really disappointed in you, OC.


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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: Sun King]
    #20297251 -

You and the queen?:whoa:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eternal Recurrence? [Re: Icelander]
    #20297272 -

If that is what you want to be called.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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