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Anonymous
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 science, chaos, predictability, humans. 
#2015657 - 10/16/03 05:44 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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part of science is making observations, taking measurements, and creating theories, etc. about the natural world in such a way that events can be described, explained, or predicted.
imagine, for a moment, that we had a total, complete understanding of the workings of the universe, and if we could measure and describe the workings of matter and energy down the the very most fundamental units... we could have total, complete knowledge of things, couldn't we?
we already can explain, describe, and predict simple events fairly well. the speed at which a bowling ball falls from a tower, the size of the hole it will form in the dirt, whether or not it will bounce, or move this way or that... these are all things we can explain and predict pretty well.
with an all-encompassing understanding of the laws of the universe, as well as perfectly precise and accurate measuring tools, and extremely powerful computers and equations, we could understand, predict, and explain everything that goes on in this universe. after all, the language of the universe is mathematics, and there are rules which are followed in this place.
with total understanding and observation of the language of the universe, all things can be explained, and most importantly, predicted. nothing is really chaotic. (or is it? i haven't much background in heavier physics-type stuff. is there any such thing as a truly random event?)
but what of humans? what of free will? humans can think and act, no? we are not pre-destined to act in certain ways, as a subatomic particle or distant star is. are we?
isn't that something special?
discuss.
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2015733 - 10/16/03 06:05 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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physics people: are there such things as truly, fundamentally random events? is chaos real?
if not... i would venture to say that sentient beings with free will bring chaos and unpredictability into a system that was formerly completely ordered and predictable.
that to me is very interesting...
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 trendal
J♠
 
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2015776 - 10/16/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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are there such things as truly, fundamentally random events? is chaos real?
Most modern physicist's would probably say yes. In fact everything is random, to some extent. Heisenberg created the Uncertainty Principle and with it destroyed the idea of Determinism. He said that, in essence, nothing can be known EXACTLY. We can only truely determine probability.
I think that this is a misinterpretation of experimental data. It is not that nothing can be measured exactly...just that we cannot measure anything exactly with our present understanding of the universe and measuring tools.
Humans are just another level of abstraction. The complexity we add to "the equation" is large, but like any complexity it has roots in Order. Our behaviour may seem random at first glance, but I assure you that there is a deep underlying order to everything.
The movements of the planets and stars once seemed random.
The problem turned out to be we just didn't know what was really going on 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: trendal]
#2015844 - 10/16/03 06:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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while we may not be able to actually measure something's location and velocity simultaneously, it does still have a certain location and velocity, and it does still act in a way particular to that location and velocity. is that correct?
how is everything random to an extent?
perhaps that what heisenberg observed is and will always be a block to measurement and interpretation, but it still doesn't mean that these things are random, right?
i mean... just because we cannot measure certain values which describe a certain thing, doesn't mean that such values do not exist. no?
humans cannot predict everything no matter how advanced our knowledge of math and physics because we cannot measure things perfectly. but though we cannot measure it, it is still predetermined...
right?
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2015967 - 10/16/03 07:04 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yep, you're right on the ball 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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 monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
Registered: 09/06/02
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Loc: Jacksonville,FL
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2015977 - 10/16/03 07:09 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
while we may not be able to actually measure something's location and velocity simultaneously, it does still have a certain location and velocity, and it does still act in a way particular to that location and velocity. is that correct?
From a lot of modern physicists viewpoints,no.
According to quantum mechanics,when electrons change energy levels there is no in between. This is called the quantum leap.
An atom is also infinite in a way. Electrons only have probabilities of being in certain areas. They are more likely to be closer to the nucleus,but they can theorectically be on the other side of the universe.
Some sub atomic events are truly random.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Earth_Droid
Stranger
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: monoamine]
#2015990 - 10/16/03 07:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would just like to say I definately agree existence is chaotic. However from chaos comes formation and certain patters arrice. The synchronicities and unity that comes from this chaos rules out the chances of randomness. I take it some people will understand what I am saying and some people won't. And I also take it I could have done a much better job or took more time explaining what I meant.
Edited by Earth_Droid (10/16/03 07:20 PM)
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: Earth_Droid]
#2016022 - 10/16/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Chaos theory, in mathematics, is the relavent field here 
Either way you look at it: there is Order to the universe. Either it is based on a fundamental Order (ie: precise measurement and properties) or it is based on fundamental chaos from which Order is produced.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: monoamine]
#2016103 - 10/16/03 07:47 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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is the movement of electrons random though? they do move around, but they are caused to move by certain forces acting in certain directions, right?
we cannot measure the locations and velocities of electrons simultaneously, and it makes more sense for us, at this point in our development, to refer to the possible locations of electrons in terms of probability because we cannot really know their true location, but this doesn't mean that they don't actually have a location and a velocity.
it would seem that every event is caused by a preceding event, the first event always determining the second.
a truly random, chaotic event would have to have no preceding cause...
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2016157 - 10/16/03 08:01 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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a truly random, chaotic event would have to have no preceding cause...
Which is one of the reasons why I think modern physics' view of uncertainty is misguided.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: trendal]
#2016314 - 10/16/03 08:51 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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so what about human behavior (or that of any other sentient beings)?
like... what goes on in the atmosphere of jupiter may be entirely ordered and predictable, but humans... human interactions and behavior... this i do not think is predetermined.... is it?
there are other things in the equation than simply the laws of physics... or are there? if not, that would mean that like everything else in the universe, cause follows effect, and everything is ordered and predictable no matter how chaotic it may seem... if there is something else in the equation here... what is it? can there even be something else in the equation?
what is free will? where does it come from? does it even exist?
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2016610 - 10/16/03 10:27 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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free will comes from the ability to manipulate our environment, and the separation of our selves from everything else.
Quote:
i would venture to say that sentient beings with free will bring chaos and unpredictability into a system that was formerly completely ordered and predictable.
that to me is very interesting...
Now you're getting somewhere 
As the fellow with the horns said to the old man in the clouds:
NON SERVIAM
I will not serve, bitch.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2017189 - 10/17/03 04:48 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Heh, just thought I would add that the language of the universe isn't mathematics, it is music..
I automatically accept your apology for not realizing this, because the important thing is that you now know. 
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2017237 - 10/17/03 05:39 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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free will comes from the ability to manipulate our environment, and the separation of our selves from everything else.
do you see what i'm saying though?
nothing in the universe is truly random. every event is caused by, and dependant on, a preceding event. even events that may appear totally chaotic are actually ordered and predictable. for instance... let's say i roll a pair of dice. you may say that once the dice leave my hand, the particular number they will land on is random. it is not. there are forces acting on the dice and they are behaving in an orderly manner. if you had total knowledge of the conditions of the environment (position and orientation of the dice, velocity of the dice, distance between the dice and the table, rotational velocity of the dice, mass of the dice, elasticity of both the dice and the table, gravity, etc) and total knowledge of how these forces impact future events (math and physics) you would know exactly how the dice will land. it is a pre-determined event.
if everything in the universe is ordered and predictable, each event following a determining preceding event, how is it that human actions are not predetermined (assuming they're not...)? if there is something else operating here, it must be above and beyond the normal laws of physics...
either our actions, like everything else in the universe, are dependant and predetermined, or there is something else, which goes beyond the scope of the normal physical laws of the universe, which is acting here. or am i missing something?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2017306 - 10/17/03 06:31 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Heh, just thought I would add that the language of the universe isn't mathematics, it is music..
Backwards... music is very mathmatical.
You can also tell if a physisist is experimental or into theory by the music they listen too. The theorist almost always listen to classical while the experimentalist usually listen to something other than classical.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: Seuss]
#2017318 - 10/17/03 06:38 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Backwards... music is very mathmatical.
You can also tell if a physisist is experimental or into theory by the music they listen too. The theorist almost always listen to classical while the experimentalist usually listen to something other than classical.
Yes, music is very mathematical, but I sort of think that mathematics is what makes up music, which is the universal language... sort of hard to explain, but I see everything that we know as real as being music on another level... or something..
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2017346 - 10/17/03 06:56 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some suppose that all time and space exists in its entirety all at once. Humans are unable to perceive the whole of it and only experience it in slices that we perceive as time. In that case there would be no free will and all is already determined.
That would make life simple with only one purpose: to understand why those action (or conditions as it might be if the theory is true) are the way they are.
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Be all and you'll be to end all
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2017512 - 10/17/03 09:01 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I do not believe in free will, I think it's an illusion.
Cause and Effect rule all. Just because we can't see the Cause doesn't mean it doesn't exist
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: trendal]
#2017570 - 10/17/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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> I do not believe in free will, I think it's an illusion. Cause and Effect rule all.
I have always looked at free will like a string tied at two ends. The ends are locked, but the path between the two ends are free to move around within the bounds of where the string can reach. From close up it appears that we have free will, but when you step back and look at the whole picture, free will becomes an illusion.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: Seuss]
#2017584 - 10/17/03 10:01 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think I could have said it better!
I view what is happening now, and every moment, as what has to happen as a result of everything leading up to this point. It can be no other way.
That is not to say everything is predetermined...just that everything happens for a reason.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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