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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17510735 -

Prisoner#1 said:
so what is the disease called that leads to dying from a gunshot wound?


Straight frontin'.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17510993 -

Prisoner#1 said:
explain why the US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically are
dropping in the US when there's millions more guns being sold in the country
each year... why cant you do that?



I'd guess locking up half the population a quadrupling of the prison population (since the 1980's)and the subsequent felons (that lose the right to carry) along with the increased number on parole/probation, some of whom will 'turn straight/straighter' simply because they are more likely to be locked up if they are caught again, might have more to do with the reduction of the "US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" than the extra guns that may have been legally bought recently.

Maybe when the UK locks up such a sizable percentage of it's population as is done in the US we will have the same reduction in said "crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" now, isn't that something to look forward to.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: deucedbi9]
    #17511114 -

deucedbi9 said:
Prisoner#1 said:
explain why the US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically are
dropping in the US when there's millions more guns being sold in the country
each year... why cant you do that?



I'd guess locking up half the population a quadrupling of the prison population (since the 1980's)and the subsequent felons (that lose the right to carry) along with the increased number on parole/probation, some of whom will 'turn straight/straighter' simply because they are more likely to be locked up if they are caught again, might have more to do with the reduction of the "US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" than the extra guns that may have been legally bought recently.

Maybe when the UK locks up such a sizable percentage of it's population as is done in the US we will have the same reduction in said "crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" now, isn't that something to look forward to.


Why yes. Locking up the criminals would be something to look forward to, as opposed to having the decent law-abiding citizens punished for protecting themselves.

What a twisted system that the citizens of the UK "enjoy".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17511197 -

Quote:
Is the right to own an AR-15 granted by the Constitution? Is that next to the part where bazookas are a protected right?



Did the framers of the constitution envision internet, TV, or mass media? Should the first amendment not apply to those too? It's not like they knew what the first amendment could develop into.


Quote:
And nobody said it is. Taking guns away is how we can help fix a gun violence issue.




Banning semi automatic rifles solves that problem how? Consider that 3.5% of crime is committed with rifles. 4% of crime is committed with legally bought weapons. Hammers and bats kill more pople every year in murder that rifles. Oh wait, I meant to say people kill people with hammers and bats more than rifles. In 1994 there was an estimated 1.5 million "assault rifles" owned. Do you know how many millions more have been legally bought? So you want to limit literally millions of people because of a few hundred isolated incidents. Should we ban drugs because people are overdosing too?




Quote:
You're free to believe that.



Now instead of taking in the data I sent you to prove to you that the number of firearms in a country has absolutely nothing to do with how much rime there is, you tell me that it's my "opinion". Numbers don't lie. You keep dissecting what I'm telling you as opinion to make yourself feel better about the fact that you are wrong. There is nothing more to this conversation because you refuse to change your position after I've proven to you with evidence that your completely wrong.


Oh and banning guns is going to fix the problem what, 100 years down the line? Just like how banning drugs fixed that issue, and prostitution, and alcohol. Oh wait, something different happened with alcohol.



I'll leave you  a couple links you can kindly shut the fuck up about.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/foghorn/cbs-news-more-guns-in-california-fewer-bodies/#more-185565



Oh and I should reiterate the point that violent crime and murder has dropped nearly every year for decades and the amount of guns legally bought goes up by MILLIONS every year. So if you don't want to accept that more guns means less violence that's fine, but you are completely wrong to think that more guns is more crime. So you want to create a bunch of restrictive laws because you bought into a bunch of political scare tactics, and you won't even admit your wrong after it's been proven. Pathetic.


--------------------
:tigerbunny:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: withoutawire]
    #17511293 -

withoutawire said:
Banning semi automatic rifles solves that problem how? Consider that 3.5% of crime is committed with rifles. 4% of crime is committed with legally bought weapons. Hammers and bats kill more pople every year in murder that rifles.


Doesn't this suggest that less efficient weapons (e.g., single shot or bolt action firearms), are just that:  less efficient at killing, since they killed fewer people?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: badchad]
    #17511355 -

Pris.  It seems you are the only logical one here.  Throughout history governments around the world have banned firearms.  The result has almost always been a sort of 'round up'  where unarmed civilians are murdered by said government. 

about Switzerland...
But countries with stronger gun control laws have higher murder rates, according to U.N. statistics. Russia, Brazil, South Africa and Mexico, for example, have very strict gun control laws, and much higher murder rates.

Yet gun ownership has always been very strong in Switzerland, ranked number three for gun ownership in the world. The Swiss have had historically lower murder rates than countries with strict gun control laws.
http://www.calwatchdog.com/2013/01/03/dangerous-precedents-for-gun-control/

not the most refutable source, but you get the idea.  Research countries who have banned fireafms, and then look at who and how many people were then murdered by said government.



Criminals who use guns would still commit crimes without them.  What was it, 20 kids stabbed to death in Japan recently.  gun laws don't stop violence, criminals will continue to be violent.


--------------------
The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself.  All you are is a thought.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17511499 -

luvdemshrooms said:
deucedbi9 said:
Prisoner#1 said:
explain why the US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically are
dropping in the US when there's millions more guns being sold in the country
each year... why cant you do that?



I'd guess locking up half the population a quadrupling of the prison population (since the 1980's)and the subsequent felons (that lose the right to carry) along with the increased number on parole/probation, some of whom will 'turn straight/straighter' simply because they are more likely to be locked up if they are caught again, might have more to do with the reduction of the "US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" than the extra guns that may have been legally bought recently.

Maybe when the UK locks up such a sizable percentage of it's population as is done in the US we will have the same reduction in said "crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" now, isn't that something to look forward to.


Why yes. Locking up the criminals would be something to look forward to, as opposed to having the decent law-abiding citizens punished for protecting themselves.

What a twisted system that the citizens of the UK "enjoy".



The UK already has the highest rate of incarceration in western Europe.
America has ~25x more. Maybe that's how many (people) you need to lock up to reduce the crime rate to its present lower level.
Is it possible that this need for such a huge prison population is due to the US's historic level of gun ownership in the first place?

Please, let me assure you, I do not feel in any way "punished" just because I can not own a gun. I never did, nor did I ever want to. Just like the vast majority of my countrymen.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: deucedbi9]
    #17511505 -

deucedbi9 said:
Is it possible that this need for such a huge prison population is due to the US's historic level of gun ownership in the first place?


A wise man would have looked into the answer before asking the question.

But no. It's not. The vast majority of those in jail are not there for gun related crimes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: withoutawire]
    #17511758 -

withoutawire said:
Oh and banning guns is going to fix the problem what, 100 years down the line? Just like how banning drugs fixed that issue, and prostitution, and alcohol. Oh wait, something different happened with alcohol.



Drugs are not banned.  Certain drugs are prohibited and the reasons for this are complicated and in no way identical to the reasons for gun control.  None of these issues are black-and-white as you'd make them out to be.  People holding such one-sided extreme views makes it very difficult to actually come to terms with both sides of the coin and work towards reasonable comprimise.

Should I be able to make weapons in my garage and sell them to local kids?  I don't think so.

Should a company be able to sell guns in a way that makes it very easy to divert guns into the hands of violent criminals?  I don't think so.

Should someone be able to hoard munitions without consent of the local community?  I don't think so.

When someone says "you'll pry my gun from my cold dead hands" or the like, I think they are just picturing themself as some sort of fantasy hero and not being realistic.  If you rely on your interpretation of the Constitution as justification and can't adknowledge that things have changed slightly since 1776, you're really a shame to your country.  Society changes.  Laws change.

Extremists need to take it down a peg.  Nobody is trying to round you up and put you in a death camp.  It is possible that there are genuine people out there that want to reduce the number/type of guns available because they believe it will save lives.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: deucedbi9]
    #17512258 -

deucedbi9 said:
I'd guess locking up half the population a quadrupling of the prison population (since the 1980's)and the subsequent felons (that lose the right to carry) along with the increased number on parole/probation, some of whom will 'turn straight/straighter' simply because they are more likely to be locked up if they are caught again, might have more to do with the reduction of the "US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" than the extra guns that may have been legally bought recently.



as we all know the increase in the prison population isnt due to violent
criminals but the majority are in fact drug criminals and it seems to have
taken a 14 year delay under your assertion of imprisonment before the
violent crime rates began to decrease, if we were adding 30,000 people per
year to the inmate population then why would it have taken so long?

as I recall in 1993 the clinton administration was bucking for an 'assault
weapons' ban but in they years preceding it there was a great deal of
discussion about it in the media along with the events of ruby ridge, he
branch davidians, and all the way back to the shooting of Ronald Reagan and
James Brady. now as crazy as it seems, any time politicians and the media
start to talk about banning various weapons there seems to be a huge run on
these weapons, people start snatching them up, manufacturers start producing
more and people buy them and it's an endless cycle until the day the ban
goes into effect which in this case was 11/30/1993, of course the pre-ban
weapons, those produced prior to the ban, the same ones that were still
being sold in retail stores for at least 3 more years due to over production
were of course legal for sale as were the high capacity magazines that were
produced for all small arms at the time

now as crazy as it sounds, in the begining of 1994 we started seeing a
reduction in the crime rates, particularly violent crimes, we also saw a
rise in militia groups, ordinary folks that felt that this was in fact an
attempt at banning all guns and one thing they were certainly right about
was that it would be an increase in the government giving it's self more
and more authority over the lives of the citizens


Quote:
Maybe when the UK locks up such a sizable percentage of it's population as is done in the US we will have the same reduction in said "crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically" now, isn't that something to look forward to.


so you're saying that the british dont lock up the criminals? seems pretty
stupid to me that the brits would allow dangerous criminals to walk the
streets, here in the US as was mentioned, most of our incarcerated are non
violent drug offenders thanks to the war on drugs, are you suggesting that
the UK do the same? since when does locking up non violent drug offenders
affect the violent crime rates


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: moonrockmushy] * 1
    #17512659 -

moonrockmushy said:
withoutawire said:
Oh and banning guns is going to fix the problem what, 100 years down the line? Just like how banning drugs fixed that issue, and prostitution, and alcohol. Oh wait, something different happened with alcohol.



Drugs are not banned.  Certain drugs are prohibited and the reasons for this are complicated and in no way identical to the reasons for gun control.


what is prohibition if not the ban of the sale, importation, distribution,
possession and manufacture of an item. the reason drugs such as marijuana
are still banned is no different than the claims of the people trying to ban
guns, "safer streets"



Quote:
Should a company be able to sell guns in a way that makes it very easy to divert guns into the hands of violent criminals?  I don't think so.


can the same not be said of pharmacies, I can pick up some pills and sell
them right outside the door

Quote:
Should someone be able to hoard munitions without consent of the local community?  I don't think so.


why shouldnt they? what will my bullets do to my neighbors?



Quote:
If you rely on your interpretation of the Constitution as justification and can't adknowledge that things have changed slightly since 1776, you're really a shame to your country.  Society changes.  Laws change.


laws change, the bill of rights do not and those rights were written to
accept that growth and development were enevitable, if the second amendment
were to change then what's the stop the other 9 from changing? what's to
stop slavery from being re instituted?

Quote:
Extremists need to take it down a peg.  Nobody is trying to round you up and put you in a death camp.


you're right, with 270 million guns in the hands of civilians no one will be
rounding us up an putting us into death camps and those extremist liberals
and progressives that would like to see assault weapons bans or seizure of
certain weapons should be taken down a few pegs


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: deucedbi9]
    #17512692 -

deucedbi9 said:
Please, let me assure you, I do not feel in any way "punished" just because I can not own a gun. I never did, nor did I ever want to. Just like the vast majority of my countrymen.




just because you dont want a gun doesnt mean you can speak for the rest of your countrymen



http://bluesteeldemocrats.blogspot.com/2009/01/england-wants-their-guns-back.html


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17512963 -

Quote:
what is prohibition if not the ban of the sale, importation, distribution,
possession and manufacture of an item. the reason drugs such as marijuana
are still banned is no different than the claims of the people trying to ban
guns, "safer streets"


I was going to say that drugs cannot be used offensively, but I suppose they could.  A bit of LSD in the water would probably cause major slowdowns in production, which could certainly do harm.  Still, I think that people who want to buy any drug for personal use should be given the opportunity to do so.  If someone wants a gun for themself that doesn't have the potential to cause massive casualties in a short time, I have no problem with that.  I am more concerned with people that want to use large amounts of dangerous weapons offensively to further a personal agenda, which I think is a legitimate concern.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17512971 -

Good thing I stocked up on AR and AK lowers. I'll be selling "pre ban rifles for wildly inflated prices long after any laws are put in place.

Thanks liberal pussys. You're all gonna make me a lot of money.:grin:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17513206 -

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:
what is prohibition if not the ban of the sale, importation, distribution,
possession and manufacture of an item. the reason drugs such as marijuana
are still banned is no different than the claims of the people trying to ban
guns, "safer streets"


I was going to say that drugs cannot be used offensively, but I suppose they could.  A bit of LSD in the water would probably cause major slowdowns in production, which could certainly do harm. 


I guess you really dont look at facts then, GHB has been used to aid many
people in sexually assaulting their victims, other drugs such as roofies and
quaaludes were also used for the same purposes, recently an article was
posted about the 2 girls that drugged their parents so they could play in
the internet, suppose the parents had drank more than half the shake, it
damned well could have killed them, about 91% of the 41,592 intentional,
fatal poisonings in this country are done through the use of prescription
drugs and you some how believe that tainting the water supply with LSD could
slow production a little and that causes some harm... what about the 831,295
other unintentional poisonings in which production was slowed due to ER
visits by those affected

slither out from under your rock for a moment and open your eyes to what's
going on in the real world, drugs certainly can be used to cause harm and
have in far more cases than guns have been


Quote:
Still, I think that people who want to buy any drug for personal use should be given the opportunity to do so.  If someone wants a gun for themself that doesn't have the potential to cause massive casualties in a short time, I have no problem with that.


so you want to ignore the fact that people kill other  people using drugs at
a far more frequent rate than guns are used but the gun is still the bad guy
as opposed to the person that's misusing the tool he's using to cause harm



Quote:
  I am more concerned with people that want to use large amounts of dangerous weapons offensively to further a personal agenda, which I think is a legitimate concern.


and what stops them from fulfilling that agenda with other weapons, weapons
that are already illegal, why would a ban on these so called dangerous
weapons have any effect on the issue you're concerned with when we clearly
see you're only concerned with guns and not other dangerous instruments or
practices

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/17050855/pickens-sheriffs-office-student-had-pipe-bomb
http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/school-attacker-had-10-pipe-bombs-sword-chainsaw/nK4cq/
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-17/justice/florida.school.attack_1_pipe-bombs-explosive-materials-investigators?_s=PM:CRIME

these pipe bombs arent a rare occurrence, you're simply not hearing about
them because it appears to you that guns are a much bigger issue, that and
the media doesnt report them as much because the media has an agenda to push
just like you do


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: ChenZhenFromJingWu]
    #17513232 -

ChenZhenFromJingWu said:
Good thing I stocked up on AR and AK lowers. I'll be selling "pre ban rifles for wildly inflated prices long after any laws are put in place.

Thanks liberal pussys. You're all gonna make me a lot of money.:grin:



dont forget, they want to ban profits too



--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17513246 -

Quote:
91% of the 41,592 intentional,
fatal poisonings in this country are done through the use of prescription
drugs and you some how believe that tainting the water supply with LSD could
slow production a little and that causes some harm... what about the 831,295
other unintentional poisonings in which production was slowed due to ER
visits by those affected



Before I approach this issue could you provide sources?

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17513257 -

moonrockmushy said:
Before I approach this issue could you provide sources?


The source is probably the CDC website.

There were a total of 41k poisoning deaths in 2009.  Nearly 32k were "unintentional", another 3k were "undetermined".  This leaves about 6k in "intentional" poisonings.  Most were suicides, and people overdosing while attempting to "get high". 

I think that's somewhat different than blatant homicide, and the point can be extended to other things like auto accidents etc.  In my mind, accidental deaths or deaths due to stupidity are vastly different than homicide.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

Edited by badchad (01/07/13 05:43 PM)

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: badchad]
    #17513286 -

I'm just wondering if suicide/attempts are included in that figure.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: badchad]
    #17513332 -

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:
91% of the 41,592 intentional,
fatal poisonings in this country are done through the use of prescription
drugs and you some how believe that tainting the water supply with LSD could
slow production a little and that causes some harm... what about the 831,295
other unintentional poisonings in which production was slowed due to ER
visits by those affected



Before I approach this issue could you provide sources?



can I get the full text of this bullshit liberall gun grabber study that Mafiki
badchad said:
moonrockmushy said:
Before I approach this issue could you provide sources?


The source is probably the CDC website.

There were a total of 41k poisoning deaths in 2009.  Nearly 32k were "unintentional", another 3k were "undetermined".  This leaves about 6k in "intentional" poisonings.  Most were suicides, and people overdosing while attempting to "get high". 

I think that's somewhat different than blatant homicide, and the point can be extended to other things like auto accidents etc.  In my mind, accidental deaths or deaths due to stupidity are vastly different than homicide.



the point is that drugs do far more harm than a little LSD in the water
causing a loss in productivity. therefore we need to ban all drugs outright
regardless of any benefit they may serve because they can do harm

did you know people that smoke pot before driving are twice as likely to
have an auto accident, some of those resulting in fatalities

we need to increase the ban on marijuana, double ban it!


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/story/health/story/2012-02-09/Marijuana-users-twice-as-likely-to-cause-car-crash/53031202/1


are we beginning to see how the liberal mindset works?


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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