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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4253985 - 06/03/05 09:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
SO having a loaded gun is the safest form of protection that you can imagine.....



I did not say that nor did I imply that. However, in certain situations a handgun may be the best tool for defense.


Quote:

Believing that there are better means of protection than using a gun is false?



If you think that is the case in all situations, yes.

Quote:

Not really.



So do you deny that situations can vary?

Quote:

Then I was right the gun was not needed.



No you were not right. I was referring to specific individuals living specific lives. It is irrational to assume that all people experience life identically. In fact, it just isn't so. It is also irrational to assume that just because you have experienced your whole life without the need to resort to the use of a firearm to defend yourself on another innocent person, that the situation will never arise.

Quote:

It is just as irrational to believe that having a gun will solve every situation.



Indeed it is, I have never said, nor have I implied that a gun will solve every situation.

Quote:

I still havent seen any solid evidence where a gun would be better than using some common sence.



Sometimes, it is common sense to use a gun. Common sense does not preclude the use of different tools for different situations, in fact it demands it.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4253993 - 06/03/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm having handgun withdrawals.  I want my gat.

:bitch:

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4254001 - 06/03/05 09:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Well then. Give me a quick course on how to defend myself against 6 foot 5 inch muscular male, under the influence of narcotics and armed with a gun. Assume that I am a woman 5 feet 2 inches tall without the time, physical ability or desire to devote myself to becoming proficient in a martial art.




Boy..you sure do like pulling dramatic scenarios out of your ass don't ya. A tazer or pepper spray will stop any attacker.

If the person is so drug crazed that a tazer or pepper spray doesn't effect them, guess what, a bullet won't either.

I have seen drug crazed people get shot point blank and never feel it.

So again how is the gun going to be of any help in that scenario?

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Invisiblethegatewaydrug
my burning sunwill some dayrise

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 6,987
Loc: wherever i may roam
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254002 - 06/03/05 09:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

also, it all depends on where u live, if u live in the ghetto then yes i would recommend a gun. if u live in a peaceful environment then yes theres no need for a gun and would be pointless to carry around. so we're all right in some way, yes a gun can do bad, and yes it can do alot of good, its all abuot where u live when it comes down to it.


--------------------
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because i won't.

General George S. Patton
:paranoid:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254009 - 06/03/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I have seen drug crazed people get shot point blank and never feel it.






Were you on the SWAT team or something?

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254046 - 06/03/05 09:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I have lived my whole live without having to carry a gun. That is all the support I need.



Are you everyone? Have you experienced all situations that have confronted every individual on the planet throughout the history of the earth?

Quote:

I have even had a gun pulled on me.



So then you cannot speak for the great number of people both living and dead who have had guns pulled on them, as you have no relevant experience on which to draw.

Quote:

Keeping your wits about you and not panicking will go lots farther that trying to get into a shooting match.



Who said anything about trying to get in a shooting match? Is is a witless insinuation to suggest that just because someone has a firearm for self-defense that he/she is 'trying to get into a shooting match.'

Quote:

So your saying that the only way to protect yourself is to carry a loaded gun around?



No, try reading my actual words instead of constantly engaging in hyperbole and the expression of baseless assumptions.

Quote:

Boy you don't think these responses thru too much do ya. If someone has a gun pointed at you...and you go for your gun.....BANG, your dead.



Actually, I've thought it through quite a lot. It is extraordinarily ignorant to assume that all encounters will unfold as you have described above. It just ain't so.

Quote:

You keep going back to the "I cant protect myself unless I have a gun" argument.



No I haven't. Please do not misrepresent what I say. Address my actual words instead of making things up so you can pretend you have made a rebuttal. The fact is, that there are some situations where a gun is the best defense.

Quote:

All I ever said was that there are better/safer ways to protect yourself.



PROVE IT.

Quote:

once the gun is pointed at you....your having a gun is useless.



Again, that really depends on the situation. As you are one who has never had a gun pulled on him, I am amazed that you can be so confident in your ignorance.

Quote:

We aren't talking about cops...just the average Joe in the street.



I am well aware of what we are talking about. It doesn't change the fact that in certain situations a firearm may be the best method of defending yourself.

Quote:

I do get tired of having to repeat myself.



Maybe you should exhibit a little more flexibility in your thinking.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4254071 - 06/03/05 09:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
SO having a loaded gun is the safest form of protection that you can imagine.....



I did not say that nor did I imply that. However, in certain situations a handgun may be the best tool for defense.




I have a hard time imagining a situation where my having a gun will make the situation better. Every situation mentioned in this thread so far could have been handled just as effectively with a tazer or mace.


Quote:

Quote:

Believing that there are better means of protection than using a gun is false?



If you think that is the case in all situations, yes.



Again, I have yet to hear of a situation that could not have been handled just as well with the tazer or mace.

Quote:

Quote:

Not really.



So do you deny that situations can vary?




I agree that no two situations will be the same, just that there will always be a better way to handle the situation than using a gun.

Quote:

Quote:

Then I was right the gun was not needed.



No you were not right. I was referring to specific individuals living specific lives. It is irrational to assume that all people experience life identically. In fact, it just isn't so. It is also irrational to assume that just because you have experienced your whole life without the need to resort to the use of a firearm to defend yourself on another innocent person, that the situation will never arise.




You said...
"Duh! Imagination is not your strong suite is it?. I can cite numerous instances where private citizens have used guns to thwart violent actions, many times without firing a single shot."

If they didn't have to fire the gun...then it wasn't needed. Some other form of intimidation would have worked just as well.

Quote:

Quote:

It is just as irrational to believe that having a gun will solve every situation.



Indeed it is, I have never said, nor have I implied that a gun will solve every situation.




No, you just believe that a gun is the answer on certain occasions and I believe that all situations can be handled with out the use of a gun.

Quote:

Quote:

I still haven't seen any solid evidence where a gun would be better than using some common sense.



Sometimes, it is common sense to use a gun. Common sense does not preclude the use of different tools for different situations, in fact it demands it.




I agree that there are certain situations that a gun is needed ( hunting, target practice...). It is not something that you should walk around in public with.

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Invisiblethegatewaydrug
my burning sunwill some dayrise

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 6,987
Loc: wherever i may roam
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254098 - 06/03/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: dont u guys think this has gotten a little out of hand here, i mean we r basically going around in circles. lets just smoke a bowl and forget about guns for now *passes bowl to left*


--------------------
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because i won't.

General George S. Patton
:paranoid:

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Invisibleeric_the_red
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 14,717
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: thegatewaydrug]
    #4254131 - 06/03/05 09:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thegatewaydrug said:
i mean we r basically going around in circles. 




:geordinod:


--------------------
Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4254138 - 06/03/05 09:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You seem to be the one having trouble reading what I have written.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

I have even had a gun pulled on me.



So then you cannot speak for the great number of people both living and dead who have had guns pulled on them, as you have no relevant experience on which to draw.




Quote:

Quote:

]once the gun is pointed at you....your having a gun is useless.



Again, that really depends on the situation. As you are one who has never had a gun pulled on him, I am amazed that you can be so confident in your ignorance.




Hello.....I have had a gun pointed at me.

I'm still glad I didn't have one.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254159 - 06/03/05 09:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Boy..you sure do like pulling dramatic scenarios out of your ass don't ya.



On the contrary, predators tend to single out those who they believe are weak.

Quote:

A tazer or pepper spray will stop any attacker.



You are either lying or hopelessly ignorant. Do you remember the incident that sparked the last L.A. riots? Rodney King was tazed and didn't stop. This is not an isolated incident. Police departments do not depend on tazers or pepper spray precisely because they are less reliable than firearms. Nor do they rely on firearms for every situation (as you keep implying about your opponents -very dishonest).

Quote:

If the person is so drug crazed that a tazer or pepper spray doesn't effect them, guess what, a bullet won't either.



Another ignorant proclamation. Tell me Einstein, how putting a bullet through an assailant's chest and destroying his heart won't effect him. Explain to me in medical terms how the back of a human head can explode from hydrostatic pressure of a .45, releasing brain matter and stopping copious amounts of blood from circulating, will not result in the loss of function to an individual.

Quote:

I have seen drug crazed people get shot point blank and never feel it.



Boy..you sure do like pulling dramatic scenarios out of your ass don't ya. Do tell. What type of guns were used? Where was the person struck? Why was the shot not followed up?

Quote:

So again how is the gun going to be of any help in that scenario?



Boy..you sure do like pulling dramatic scenarios out of your ass don't ya. Not all situation are as the lie which you just told. I never said that a gun was a guarantee, I did say that there are occasions where it is the best method of self defense. This does not imply that it would always be successful. Nor does this imply that it is always the best method. However, it does not logically follow that you should not attempt to defend yourself with a firearm should the need arise. Nor am I suggesting that you should put yourself in situations which can endanger you but you are able to avoid.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Invisibleflowstone
blustering

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 6,485
Loc: precious
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4254177 - 06/03/05 10:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

To no one in particular, or whoever is against owning guns. I did not read your fued...





Really, does it matter? Does it matter what one side thinks in a war, does it matter what the wrong side of the gun thinks? Will it change anything to be against an unstopable force? Will guns ever be banned? No.
Will you be able to make your own choices? Will you be free to decide if you want to carry a gun or not? Will you accept your death as an un-armed citizen with a free hand? Will you arm yourself accordingly if you decide not to carry a gun.
Hope so.


--------------------
these long agonizing months without you...have been long and agonizing..
"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Only Decides Who's Left."

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254179 - 06/03/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
You seem to be the one having trouble reading what I have written.



My apologies. The fact still stands that not all situations end up as favorably as yours. I have two friends who were shot dead, unarmed and doing nothing to provoke the assailants.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254213 - 06/03/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I have a hard time imagining a situation where my having a gun will make the situation better.



So?

Quote:

Every situation mentioned in this thread so far could have been handled just as effectively with a tazer or mace.



Wrong.

Quote:

Again, I have yet to hear of a situation that could not have been handled just as well with the tazer or mace.



Tazers don't always work.
Mace doesn't always work.
Tazers don't always work.
Mace doesn't always work.
Tazers don't always work.
Mace doesn't always work.
Tazers don't always work.
Mace doesn't always work.
Tazers don't always work.
Mace doesn't always work.
Tazers don't always work.
Mace doesn't always work.

Quote:

I agree that no two situations will be the same, just that there will always be a better way to handle the situation than using a gun.



Always? How do you know?

Quote:

If they didn't have to fire the gun...then it wasn't needed. Some other form of intimidation would have worked just as well.



Do you think a knife is as effective a deterrent as a gun against an assailant wielding a pipe? Is the sound of a person unholstering a can of mace as effective as the sound of a twelve gauge shotgun chambering a round? I know what's more effective should intimidation not work.

Quote:

I agree that there are certain situations that a gun is needed ( hunting, target practice...).



What has a better chance, a can of mace vs. a firearm or a firearm vs. a firearm? What has a better chance, a tazer vs. a firearm or a firearm vs. a firearm?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: thegatewaydrug]
    #4254217 - 06/03/05 10:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thegatewaydrug said:
:lol: dont u guys think this has gotten a little out of hand here, i mean we r basically going around in circles. lets just smoke a bowl and forget about guns for now *passes bowl to left*





:lol::yesnod:
I have a hard time walking away when someone tries to tell me that I dont know what Im talkling about, or I havent thought the issue thru.

Most people probably think I'm some sort of anti-gun fanatic.........but I'm not, I assure ya.

I believe in every ones right to own a gun. I even own guns myself.

I just believe that a guns place isn't in the streets. Virtually every situation that you can imagine can be handled just as well using some other form of protection.

The people that I have seen that carry a gun with them everywhere, are scared. They have the gun out of fear. It makes them feel safe

What I'm suggesting is that the sense of safety is an illusion, a farce. You are putting all your faith in the gun's ability to keep you safe. When, with a little more confidence and a different weapon.....the end result will be the same.

So the gun isn't really needed.......just wanted.

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OfflineJihadISfreind
Stranger

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 203
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254246 - 06/03/05 10:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Edit by Ripple:

Goodby Puppet!

Edited by Ripple (06/03/05 10:33 PM)

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: JihadISfreind]
    #4254280 - 06/03/05 10:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

JihadISfreind said:
Ok idd like to see ur hippy ass make it alive if you are attacked by muslim radicals armed with ak-47s.



Ohhhhh....did I touch a nerve.  :lol:

If radical Muslims did attacked with AK-47's....while you jump up to fight back....getting shot in the process.

My "hippie ass" will be sitting in a chair toking on a joint. Offering it up to our confused Muslim brothers.

Me owning a gun will only quicken my death.

:peace: :peace: :peace:


Quote:

Go stick a taker up ur ass.



I think I lost ya on that one......stick a taker up my ass?????? wtf
Maybe I have smoked one too many joints tonight :shrug:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisiblethegatewaydrug
my burning sunwill some dayrise

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 6,987
Loc: wherever i may roam
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: niteowl]
    #4254299 - 06/03/05 10:44 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

basically your both right, check it out

example 1- ur at a bar and someone wants to fight u cause u were hittin on his girl

option 1- u can whoop out ur pistol and either pop him or try to scare him away. bad idea because he might come back pissed and kill u while your backs turned

option 2- u can try to reason with him and try to calm him down before shit goes down. alot better idea because when someones mad at u the worst thing to do is make them more mad

example 2- a drugged up man is coming at u with a weapon

option 1- u can try to fend him off with close quarter arms such as stun guns or pepper spray. most likely thats gonna piss him off more and by that time ull be dead.

option 2- you can pop him right in the face and stop him instantly thus eliminating the threat. probly the better idea in this situation because hes not stopping without extreme force

so having a gun can be both good and bad it just depends how responsible u are with it


--------------------
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because i won't.

General George S. Patton
:paranoid:

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Offlinemediman0078
Stilllooking.....

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 1,379
Loc: Here, there, EVERYWHERE
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: thegatewaydrug]
    #4940812 - 11/16/05 09:08 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

BETTER TO HAVE A GUN AND NOT NEED IT THAN NEED A GUN AND NOT HAVE IT.

Personally, I have a 12 gauge in the house (for defense and for bird hunting), a .40S&W in the car (for fucking car jackers), .380 for concealed carry (for working in shitty neighborhoods where getting robbed and killed is an everyday occurance) and a tiny can of MP Pepperspray (for the situations where lethal force isn't warrented, (ie. dogs, drugged up or drunk idiots looking for a fight).

I'm of the opinion that if you need to show your gun to make you feel tough, you're going to get shot, plain and simple. Why? Showing someone your gun to spook 'em is only going to piss them off so they'll go get their gun to "show" you they aren't afraid of you... usually while you aren't looking. You only pull a gun when YOUR LIFE IS THREATENED. This doesn't apply to little fags trying to make people think they're hard or whatever. They usually get what's comming to them for being irresponsible little shits.

NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT.

Duh.... if someone is shooting at you and you haven't already been killed, what are you going to do if you don't have a gun? Punch them? Give them the lethal 9 fingers of death kung-fu poke? Whatever... you're going to lay there and get killed. Personally, if someone wants to take me out, I'd like to have the means to try and take them with me. Justice for the just.

You're damn right when you say people carry guns out of fear, but at least with proper training and a gun you can even the odds a bit. That alliveates at least some of that fear.

I don't know how many of you are ex-military, but once you been shot at a few times, you sure aren't looking for your pepperspray. Your looking for the BFG (biggest fucking gun) you can get pointed in that direction. At least then you have a chance at surviving... go running into bullet flight paths with your knives, swords, and pepperspray and your hamburger. NOTHING ELSE HAS THE STOPPING POWER OF A BULLET. PERIOD. (Unless your packing a LAW rocket or something... and good luck getting a concealed carry for that. LOL)


--------------------
........someday I'll find it.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
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Re: Why carry a gun? [Re: mediman0078]
    #4940837 - 11/16/05 09:17 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mediman0078 said:
NOTHING ELSE HAS THE STOPPING POWER OF A BULLET. PERIOD.




except maybe a ford truck

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