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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale, Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body
    #17046231 -

So my understanding is that the church teaches that souls who attain the necessary holiness and purity to enter heaven, do so after the death of the physical body (while some more souls will enter heaven after going through further purification in Purgatory).

So given that, here is my question. Apparently it is also taught that the souls in heaven will be there without a body, until the second coming of Christ when they shall receive a resurrected body which is like a physical body only without the imperfections, sickness and pain the body causes on earth.

My question is, if we don't need a body to experience heaven then what does the body do for us? What is the experience of heaven like when we have no body and how does having a body change it? How do we interact with other beings in heaven without a body? How do we sense thigns?

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #17046322 -

Jesus Christ, I hope you don't still actually take stuff like this literally.  You do know that most of what you are asking about was probably just made up by the church centuries after Jesus died?

I'm not knocking religion, as many people benefit from it, but if you really want to continue to learn you have to let go of literal interpretations of church doctrine.

In other words, as hopefully you are starting to see, a lot of what the church said does not make any sense.  Since it was just made up by regular people there really isn't much to be gained by trying to figure it out.


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I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.

Edited by AllGreyThumbs (10/17/12 01:30 AM)

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #17046388 -

I am just trying to udnerstand the church's teaching, not necessarily saying I believe in that teaching. I actually believ in reincarnation, but I do believe in heaven as well.

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate]
    #17046459 -

Cool.  I don't really understand much of what the Catholic Churh claims.  When it comes to life after death my opinions are constantly changing. 

This week I tend to think that plants animals and even some people are mostly just living expressions of the laws that govern matter.  Think biological computers.  When the computer is destroyed there isn't really anything else left.  Except....

that we can't rule out seemingly indirect (perhaps quantum mechanical) connections between things.  It is possible that some aspects of life are expression of a more wide reaching influence.  For example, some of an individual's charateristics may arise from more than just themselves.  Imagine the whole universe evolving and exerting pressure on all aspects of life to follow suit.  The part and the whole all constantly affecting each other.  So if some parts of an individual are a result of more universal tendencies, the those tendencies will still exist after individual death.

So as in eastern philosophies the qualities of a man will be reborn again and again until those qualities no longer make sense to the person they exist within.  Except that those qualities will typically not make sense when they no longer make sense to larger parts of life as well.  Basically men and life have to evolve together because they constant affect each other.

I actually think that right now all of human life is starting to see through certain silly and limiting ways of thinking.  That change is showing up in the minds of more and more individuals.  Is it people changing life?  Is life changing people?  We are parts of life and life is made up of us so it really doesn't matter.


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I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate]
    #17047716 -

What is the experience of heaven like when we have no body and how does having a body change it?-

From my own experiences on the receiving end of incarnate energies, I'd say that being trapped in a body isn't as entertaining as being able to assume forms at will.

if we don't need a body to experience heaven then what does the body do for us?-

The body is an organization that we head. Interaction with organizations is the stuff of continuity.

How do we interact with other beings in heaven without a body? How do we sense thigns?

Thru more subtle organizations than I am aware of.

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate]
    #17048392 -

If the Queen of Sheba, for example, were to make an edict, then I suppose an injunction to the effect that she has a body with which to proclaim, could characterize the resurrection of the body.

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #17048863 -

Catholicism is a mystery religion, I ponder these mysteries without the expectation of a solution. The Catholic teachings provide an endless supply of utterly ridiculous contemplations. Impossible teachings that evoke much fury and rage within.

The universe could be billions of years old, the other day I knew it really was just 5000 years old, makes more sense, today it seems like a few minutes old, everything has just been created, along with all our memories and history books. I am capable of believing anything, therefore the value of belief is questionable.

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate]
    #17049355 -

Deviate said:
So my understanding is that the church teaches that souls who attain the necessary holiness and purity to enter heaven, do so after the death of the physical body (while some more souls will enter heaven after going through further purification in Purgatory).

So given that, here is my question. Apparently it is also taught that the souls in heaven will be there without a body, until the second coming of Christ when they shall receive a resurrected body which is like a physical body only without the imperfections, sickness and pain the body causes on earth.

My question is, if we don't need a body to experience heaven then what does the body do for us? What is the experience of heaven like when we have no body and how does having a body change it? How do we interact with other beings in heaven without a body? How do we sense thigns?


These doctrines are constructed for the multitudes of non-mystics, who want linear answers to concrete questions. The idea of personal immortality is NOT biblical. What IS biblical is "eternal life," which is the life of God, and Heaven is a depersonalized term for the same Reality. The Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven is the same Reality. Only a child should imagine a golden  throne in a place surrounded by winged people. The REAL question is metaphysics, whether Communion of human consciousness with God is the rule, or whether Union with God is the rule, or whether the  Realization of the essential unity of human consciousness with Ultimate Reality is the rule. The Corpus Incorruptibilis (Incorruptible Body) may be likened to what the Vajrayana Buddhists call the Diamond Body or Adamantine Body. It is metaphorical for eternal consciousness, Clear Light, and like the Catholic term, it is not a 'body' at all. A body has form, extension, dimensions, and therefore must exist in dimensions at least as many as the body has. God, Heaven, Light, etc are metaphors for a Reality which has no extension in space-time. Eternity and Infinity are ineffable because all descriptive language necessarily admits of form. Ultimate Reality is formless, but to the multitudes of people who have never tasted inner experiences (e.g., Nirvikalpa samadhi), the only communication of Ultimate Reality will probably have to be given in terms of comforting illusions - illusions that resemble family life on earth that is endless. Actually, followed to its logical conclusions, such an existence in form, howsoever ethereal, would prove to be Hell.

The language of the Bible (as well as the Egyptian sources that gave rise to the concepts), are purely mythological expressions, perhaps of psychospiritual moments of death and discorporation at death. Vajrayana speaks of Bardos, Similarly, Catholicism has come up with various Heavens, Hells, Purgatories, and Limbo states. But I believe that these speak to human experiences of pure consciousness events (PCEs). Remember, eternality is an Eternal Now, NOT an eternal duration. Eternity and duration (time), are two completely different modes of reality. An Eternal Now must necessarily be infinitely simple, as the Neoplatonists and other mystics understand, not admitting of form, extension, motion, and other Platonic and Aristotelian notions. Elysian Fields, Happy Hunting Grounds, Golden Roads, and other linguistic creations are mythological, metaphorical, or midrashic at best, but certainly not literal.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #17051767 -

I agree with what youre saying Markos, however here on earth we have form despite our nature being formless.

Isn't it possible that there are higher realms of existence, like earth, only better but also made of form despite the fact that ultimate reality transcends them?

Isn't this why Eastern religions tell you not to stop at heaven but to keep going all the way to ultimate reality? Heaven they say is karma dependent and thus impermanent like life on earth, whereas Nirvana is permanent.

Might it be possible to take metaphor too far and interpret some things metaphorically that actually were meant to be literal?

Edited by Deviate (10/17/12 10:58 PM)

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate]
    #17053378 -

yeah in buddhism there's both form and formless higher realms - tho like you say none of them are permanent so they aren't a reliable refuge


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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: deff]
    #17062281 -

So do you have any comments Markos?

Quote:
Similarly, Catholicism has come up with various Heavens, Hells, Purgatories, and Limbo states. But I believe that these speak to human experiences of pure consciousness events (PCEs). Remember, eternality is an Eternal Now, NOT an eternal duration. Eternity and duration (time), are two completely different modes of reality. An Eternal Now must necessarily be infinitely simple, as the Neoplatonists and other mystics understand, not admitting of form, extension, motion, and other Platonic and Aristotelian notions. Elysian Fields, Happy Hunting Grounds, Golden Roads, and other linguistic creations are mythological, metaphorical, or midrashic at best, but certainly not literal.


I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Again, I agree with your premise about the eternal now being infinitely simple but I don't agree with your conclusion that any descriptions of the afterlife must be entirely metaphorical.

Usuing earth as the example once again, why can't there be after life realms populated by beings similarly to how this realm is populated by us? If you study NDEs many people report visiting places such as heaven or hell and encountering various beings there.

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Re: I don't really understand the Catholic teaching on the resurection of the body [Re: Deviate]
    #17068499 -

Deviate said:
I agree with what youre saying Markos, however here on earth we have form despite our nature being formless.

Isn't it possible that there are higher realms of existence, like earth, only better but also made of form despite the fact that ultimate reality transcends them?

Isn't this why Eastern religions tell you not to stop at heaven but to keep going all the way to ultimate reality? Heaven they say is karma dependent and thus impermanent like life on earth, whereas Nirvana is permanent.

Might it be possible to take metaphor too far and interpret some things metaphorically that actually were meant to be literal?



Anything is possible, theoretically. When I burst into Timothy Leary's dressing room after seeing him at Drew University around 1976, I asked him to autograph my copy of The Psychedelic Experience. He asked, "What do you want me to write?," and I said "Anything that comes to mind." So he wrote, "Anything that comes to mind...can happen!" He may have been correct. But, as decades of contemplation on death, and how it is handled by enormous swatches of cultures across millennia, it occurs to me that religious expectations are projections of human minds from the most childish and concrete to the most sophisticated and exalted. The more concrete-minded are only going to create Heavens based on basic human emotions of socio-cultural identity, and Maslowian 'Belongingness Needs,' or in the case of severely repressed Muslim culture, the fantasy of perpetual sexual intercourse with 72 'celestial virgins' with ruby veins and opalescent skin. Their wives have the privilege of serving them amidst their harem. These kind of projections serve to (1) buffer death anxiety, and (2) are  obvious derivations of basic 2nd and 3rd chakra motivations (or the Qabalistic Astral Triangle) which comprise the mundane personality.

Those who have experienced degrees of unity, beginning at the 4th chakra (or the Qabalistic Ethical Triangle) are not exempt from projections of etherial beings, with humanoid form or not; and vistas of light or auric rainbows, and suffused by love, compassion, and transcendence of this realm. As one moves to the 5th chakra, (correspondingly, the Abyss in Qabalah in which Da'ath [Gnosis] is found), light may give way to or merge with sound. Reality becomes mantric sound, or "the word," but even here, we are still talking about entire realities that are comprehended by our familiarity with two sensory modalities. Beyond this, the Brain chakra[s] (or Supernal Triangle in Qabalism), there are no descriptions possible because there is nothing in our mundane existence by which to compare this. This is 'No-thing,' 'the Void,' Nirvana, the Superessential Godhead, (or the Qabalistic Ain Sof [Limitless], or Ain [which is sometimes denoted by '!']). It is fair to say that one can entertain the possibility of a reality that so transcends idea, image, and certainly sense, that nothing can be said about it. Nothing. No-thing, but not 'nothing,' which again, the mind simply quits at comprehending and supplants an unconscious blackness. This too is a creation of mind, but too many people who reject Light assume that its opposite, darkness, must surely be the truth. They accept this darkness with dismal fatalism and think that those who entertain the aforementioned paradises and heavens are deluded fools. But these purveyors of dismal darkness are also deluded because they identify afterlife with Delta-wave sleep - another mundane worldly experience. The nay-sayers to Eternal Life are equally deluded in their certainty. Their faith is grounded in mundane experience. Near-Death Experiences belong to the Psychic domains, the 'Low to High Subtle realms,' according to Ken Wilber's earlier work, but not to the 'Low to High Causal Realms,' which are the Pneumatic (spiritual) and truly transcendental realms. The Psychic domains (including St. Paul's experience in 2 Corinthians 12:2, because sights and sounds that he experienced entailed form), cannot comprehend the highest domains.

For those who have experienced varying degrees of egolessness, yet self-effulgent awareness (e.g., Nirvikalpa samadhi, Asamprajnata samadhi, high Jhanas in Buddhism), are, at least, closer to what CAN be spoken, about the Ultimate Nature of human beinghood. If this Realization is not entertained in life, then, one entering the Bardo or Intermediary states of death will experience acute fear, which will drive consciousness into whatever 'vehicle' ill permit its escape into unconsciousness. The Buddhists, Hindus, Gnostics, and other mystics suggest rebirth into various vehicles, depending upon the karma of the newly deceased. Some may be attracted to subtle realms of Light (Heavens), other to low-subtle Hell-worlds, and others to animal existence, but for most, human rebirth. One really needs to be done with all of this drama pertaining to earthly life to be Liberated at death. Liberation is from the false identification with our earthly lives, and an awakening from it as from a long, bad dream. It will be a breath of fresh air, either Nirvana extinction, or emergence from yet another womb. I'm hoping for the former.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/20/12 05:06 PM)

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