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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23656726 - 09/18/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

oh sure. i like to tell Atheists that they are just as religious as anybody, lest they admit their agnosticism.

and of course, i'd say most Christians, literally a good 90% of all Christians in the US, or even more...are committing the sin, consistently, of bearing false witness. i mean...constantly. ;D

also, the insertion of anti-homoexuality...yep. also, even that very insertion is still overblown out of context...also, Jesus fulfilled "the law", right? he also said nothing about being gay and how it's a sin...just how that sex is a sin (even though that's not really so simple as people tend to make it out...sex for lack of a reason is a sin. procreation for the sake of worshipping God isn't, somehow. i'd need a theology major to help me out with that one -- Markos?)

the Greeks had three classes for human gender -- male/male, female/male, and female/female.

or so i hear -- but maybe that's just oversimplified, to an extent.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23656737 - 09/18/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I've never considered that many Christians might disagree people have the ability to solve their problems, by themselves.





Christianity is a slave religion, it's considered virtuous to be as weak and helpless as possible.




I thought God helps those who help themselves. Being weak or helpless are not considered virtues in the Bible. Rather, the Bible praises prudence, temperance, justice, courage, faith, patience, hope and charity. These are not the qualities of weak or helpless people.




Christianity perverts healthy moral values into slave ones. The admonition to "turn the other cheek" is clearly intended to encourage submission among the believers.

Hope is definitely a quality of weakness.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblebrk
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: Zombi3] * 2
    #23656838 - 09/18/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't read many of the replies Zombi3, because... well... the first few pages hurt my brain.

I don't think there is a right and wrong answer to what you should believe in. I have never been religious, or not religious. Spirituality can be a fluid concept that changes over time, and if you feel Christianity isn't right for you, well... then it isn't. What you can be sure of is that all religions will all be waiting if you choose to turn to them, and the only thing that really matters is if you are a good person or not.


--------------------
"To the young it gives a vision of the dead and gone. While the old receive a passion to survive,
and the pattern picks the pockets of the palindrome, before the oscillating rhythm takes to flight..." - Rishloo



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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23656847 - 09/18/16 08:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I attempt to be corrective without being reactive. I don't blame people for rejecting anachronistic declarations of 'belief' from so-called Christians who are espousing mythic ideas as actual history. Neither do many people realize that many so-called Christians have not, like 50% of the American population, Formal Operational Thinking in place. Many many so-called Christians have Concrete Operational Thinking, and such people are very concrete in their thinking, hence the name. Speaking of God can at best be metaphorical, not factual. When the Bible uses expressions, like king, wonderful counselor, prince of peace, etc. these appellations are metaphors taken from human roles. Nobody can proclaim that God has desires let alone say what those desires are. Considering the Bible as "the word of God" is a poor attempt to draw ultimate authority from a collection of writings that were selected out of hundreds of other writings to meet the criteria of specific religious and political agendas. These sayings pertain to human God-concepts or to men who allegedly served as mouthpieces for the Deity (the prophets). Notice how many of the most outspoken self-righteous proclaimers of these ethics turn out to be profoundly hypocritical, with wealthy televangelists being the most corrupt amongst them.

The churches no longer oppress the multitudes under a theocracy, so the usual virulent attacks upon Christianity come from those people who have been victims of severe emotional abuse in religious guise when they were children. I heard many stories about the humiliations of Catholic friends at the hands of pathological nuns, decades before I became aware of priestly pedophilia. The Protestant minister who lived next door when I was growing up had a male 'organist' who we pegged as a pedophile. But I again digress. Christian ethics have improved since biblical times towards ownership of slaves and the treatment of women and children, but of course many still cling to condemnation of homosexuals even though there was no word in Greek for homosexual and it was King James (possibly a self-loathing homosexual) who inserted that condemnation in his 1611 English translation of the Greek manuscripts. So, Christian ethics needs to continue to improve in its acceptance, forgiveness, and compassion (agapé).

Atheists can be ethical based on rational Utilitarianism - I've known some. But as soon as one sets the game plan to equate the notation God = Ultimate Reality, and the discussion becomes metaphysical and speculative, or mystical and experiential, the atheist is stopped dead in his tracks. He cannot proceed because atheists either cannot or will not move out from behind their mother's skirts of materialism. Suggest consciousness (or archaically, spirit) as having ontological priority, and since the 5 senses can discern it, abstracting Thinking and Intuition are undeveloped, the debate ends in their inability (or disability as it were).




I agree with everything you've said here and reading this helps me to organize my own thoughts. The Bible uses metaphors to describe spiritual principles but people take the metaphors as  "spiritual fact". But if they were actual facts there would not be a need for the metaphors. It's the idefinable, ineffable nature of experience that makes spiritual experiences difficult to communicate.


But at the end do you mean to say the five senses can't discern it instead of can?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: viktor]
    #23656980 - 09/18/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I've never considered that many Christians might disagree people have the ability to solve their problems, by themselves.





Christianity is a slave religion, it's considered virtuous to be as weak and helpless as possible.




I thought God helps those who help themselves. Being weak or helpless are not considered virtues in the Bible. Rather, the Bible praises prudence, temperance, justice, courage, faith, patience, hope and charity. These are not the qualities of weak or helpless people.




Christianity perverts healthy moral values into slave ones. The admonition to "turn the other cheek" is clearly intended to encourage submission among the believers.

Hope is definitely a quality of weakness.





Turn the other cheek means don't waste time on petty revenge watch this video:



--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: viktor]
    #23656990 - 09/18/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:

Hope is definitely a quality of weakness.



there is a trade-off. religious people, as a rule of thumb, according to statistics, are more charitable, overall, more than non-religious people.

Christians, especially. and Muslims.

:shrug: there are trade-offs.

i certainly think that a: the new testament might have been trifled with, or conceived, with the purpose of creating an archetypal martyr figure, easily removed by Roman authorities; and b: that within the Torah was basically conceived an attempt to inculcate magical thinking into a group, to have them believe that the world was created for them, in order to have people propagate more along the lines of a master race.

all this in the guise of paganism, early in religions origins.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23657157 - 09/18/16 09:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Hope is not necessarily weakness either in my opinion, it's not full maturity but hope gives you strength in tough times. People who give-in to circumstances often lack hope.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23657200 - 09/18/16 10:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

there's nothing immature about hope, intrinsically.

a healthily coping adult will expect the outcome of better days, because this helps prolong the incentive/drive to procreate.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23657222 - 09/18/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I agree, I meant it's not full maturity of spiritual realization because then the spiritual vision is there and no longer needs to be hoped for.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23657227 - 09/18/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

oh, i see what you mean now.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23657256 - 09/18/16 10:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Hope is not necessarily weakness either in my opinion, it's not full maturity but hope gives you strength in tough times. People who give-in to circumstances often lack hope.




Good point, I agree with this. If you've got it tough then having hope is better than giving in.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23657423 - 09/18/16 11:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:

I thought God helps those who help themselves.




The phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is credited to the Greek storyteller Aesop.

(And also Benjamin Franklin)          It's not Biblical.


Quote:

viktor said:

Hope is definitely a quality of weakness.





Many people teach against the concept of hope, as it's rooted in a desire that reality be different than it is.

Pema Chödrön repeatedly says, to "abandon hope" is great wisdom.

Even Oprah Winfrey says, "Hope is one step away from desperation." 

(That said, to believe we can change is another thing.)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23657436 - 09/19/16 12:06 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

the same people who'll teach that desire in general is fallacy.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23657440 - 09/19/16 12:09 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've never heard anyone teach that desire is a fallacy.

Desire is quite real. And normal. But to become attached to it can cause misery.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23657446 - 09/19/16 12:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Without hope the pawns wouldn't move. The promise of a purpose and a finish is integral to concious life whether it be a lie or not imo.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23657447 - 09/19/16 12:14 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I've never heard anyone teach that desire is a fallacy.

Desire is quite real. And normal. But to become attached to it can cause misery.



Buddha and many others taught it was a fallacy. and illusion.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23657473 - 09/19/16 12:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:

Buddha and many others taught it was a fallacy. and illusion.




Because hope is a fantasy.    Right?

It meets every definition of a fantasy.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23657484 - 09/19/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Buddha might have been enlightened with that knowledge. it is no longer enlightening, at this point in time, anymore. hope is a thing that people feel when it is necessary that they feel it. false hope is the danger. you should be worried about false hope.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23657493 - 09/19/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

To hope for a particular future is insanity.

To believe we can change is another thing entirely.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Seriously questioning my religious views [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23657505 - 09/19/16 12:43 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

that sounds like dogmatic horse-malarky. no offence.

you seem clasped in the grip of moral dogma.

to hope for a particular future is exactly what hope is...to have a feeling of optimistic expectation for the future, ie, feeling happy that one might aspire to something one day, or for someone to come into their life that might fill them with joy ect.

not all martyrs succeed, and in fact, most rarely do. same goes for Buddhist practitioners. let go. or at least recognize, so that you may let go, that you're not the teacher. neither is whomever whom taught you.


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