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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Registered: 04/01/03
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Responcible and recreational Entheogen users?
    #1692727 - 07/07/03 10:31 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

If you have not read my post in the "Is Entheogen Popularity on the rise?" thread please do, it will clarify the question that i have.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1683775&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Anyway, here is the question I have:
I believe in order to win the war on drugs we must eliminate a particular kind of drug users. These are the ones who "just want to get fucked up," and "be cool." It is up to us in order make these kind of people less and less and make more responceble and recreational entheogen users. I was wondering if any of you could share you thoughts on how to either eliminate (not kill or anything like that) or convert these kind of people into responcible people like ourselves (hopefully there are these kind of people reading this post).

Thank you.



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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1692734 - 07/07/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!


but I don't think that there's any real way to get rid of them, but it does need to be done.

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Offlinepolarity
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Registered: 05/16/03
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Loc: Jackson, MS
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1692862 - 07/07/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

while I somewhat agree with you and I want to see everything legalized (I'm a big fan of personal freedom) you can't really do that. I mean, what would give you the power to condem someone elses reasons. Also, once it was legal, wouldn't this type of person get into them anyway. I belive they should make it all legal, and the ones who are stupid with it will kill themselves off anyway.


--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693037 - 07/07/03 12:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I somewhat agree. But I am not saying to make everything legal. Of course making things legal will create problems in its own. I believe these problems will not be nearly as bad as the ones we have now.
What i dont seem to understand is how the government cannot learn from their mistakes. The prohibition for example. Once you let people have something that they like you cannot take it away. Its just like parenting. If you let your child have certain responcibilities you cannot take them away without them ignoring you and doing them anyway. causing you to get angry becuse of your arogance and the child to get angry because of your tyranny. i am sorry for the ranting.

I think what we need is more people that use drugs in a civilized mannwr to go out and encourage druge use in the same kind of manner. that is what i do anyway.

of course there are people who just want to get fucked up and i dont really see the problem with just that. i often just want to get drunk and get stupid. when it becomes a problem is when your actions start to harm either yourself or other people.

i think one of the contributing factors in wanting the government to keep marijuana illegal is because it makes people lazy. it is a proven fact done by studies in cultures that smoke weed. it also leads to memory loss. as a government would you suddenly wanting all the people in your country becoming unproductive? NO. of course not. and you dont want all the people loosing their memory as they get older. but you have to remember that this is mostly caused by people who smoke all the time, heavily.
the government knows that there is nothing wrong with smoking a litte weed ever now and then. but they do know that is it not healthy to smoke a lot all the time. isnt that the reason why they had the prohibition in the first place. now people have learned their lesson and there is a lot less heavy drinking now as there was back then. I think that the government wants the people to learn their lesson. the lesson is to not smoke all the time an treat marijuana as you would treat any intoxicating substance like alcohol.

anyway, that was a little off topic and i was ranting. I am not sure if all the information i gave was correct so dont take it so literal.

go out and enlighten people the correct way to use drugs.

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693178 - 07/07/03 01:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think the first step is to go from prevention tactics to actually treating people who have a drug problem. Within the drug using population, there is a 5% or so subgroup with an inability to control their drug use. These people typically abuse alcohol, cocaine, and/or opiates. The AMA recognizes this as a "disease", and whether or not we agree with the theory of it being a "disease", these people need help. Unfortuntly drug rehabs are nothing more than people talking about how to stay sober and isn't very effective treatment. Prisions are even worse. This form of treatment is to give someone with a drug problem more hook-ups by being placed right next to drug dealers. The ironic thing is alcohol is one of the worst drugs for people with a drug problem. If this segment of the population could get help, then people would have a better understanding of the seperation between responsible drug use and abuse. Most responsible drug users are afriad to "come out" because they are afriad of being grouped with addicts. Smoking weed is almost like a secert club where people don't talk about it unless they know the other person smokes. I've always found that funny.

A big problem is illegal psychedelics are grouped with these drugs, which in turn makes the general public opinion of them negative. I personally wish psychedelics could be used by well-trained and informed psychtrists to help people understand their emotions better.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693244 - 07/07/03 01:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well what we REALLY need is for everyone to go out, vote, protest, petition, whatever it takes, to get these things legalized, nothing's going to happen if we don't do anything about it.

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Offlinepolarity
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Registered: 05/16/03
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Loc: Jackson, MS
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693249 - 07/07/03 01:39 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

*sigh* i just had a great reply typed up and the browser crashed. so here i go again.

I see what your saying, but you can't have it that way. You can't legalize one drug, and not others. If you do the same argument will continue, just from different people.

We do need more important people who use drugs to fight. We need community leaders, business owner, government officials to stand up and fight for legalization. I don't see that happening though. They are already doing them and why would they want to speak up and have society hate them for it. Society sees most drug users as the same (that's right, the guy who took some x a couple times is just as bad as the crackhead that kidnapped and raped their 12 year old daughter to get ransom money). Why would anyone of importance want to get involoved in that, lose their business or their social status.

The goverment will see that there is a ton of money to be made off this though, and I think they will eventually move twords it, after all our country is mostly run by people who are after money and power (think about it). Look at all the money to be made:

Sales & tax
Insurence (c'mon you think the 7-ll that sells crack isn't going to get robbed 15 times a day, you would have to have good insurence to sell this stuff)
Court and Lawyer fees (wrongful death suits and such. If we can sue for choking on a fry, you better belive the first kid that dies from any drug sold in a store or goverment sanctioned place is going to be sued for all they are worth).

I don't feel like denying people the right to have a substance is the way to go. People are going to drive under the influence, legal or not. People are going to shoot/kill/rob to get money for these drugs, legal or not.





--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693294 - 07/07/03 01:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I agree.. so what's the best way to go about doing this?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693305 - 07/07/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

polarity said:
I see what your saying, but you can't have it that way. You can't legalize one drug, and not others. If you do the same argument will continue, just from different people.

We do need more important people who use drugs to fight. We need community leaders, business owner, government officials to stand up and fight for legalization. I don't see that happening though. They are already doing them and why would they want to speak up and have society hate them for it......





It's a very tricky call. I don't know if I have a strong opinon on what should and shouldn't be legalized. I'd love to see, eventually, ALL drugs legalized, although if it were to happen overnight, it could be a disaster. Personality, I think Canada's softening on marijuana laws is a HUGE step, but one that isn't so big that it's going to bite us in the ass.

I agree 110% that we need more people who are viewed in the public eye as respectable to face the fear of intolerant views on drug use. Someone like Woody Harrelson has done a lot for marijuana reform, but it would be nice to see someone more conservitive and traditional to speak up as well. I think people in those positions are afriad of being written off as a left-wing hemp freak. It's a shame really, because it shouldn't have to take someone to make a certain lifestyle acceptable. It's like celebrity advertising, why does it matter that Brittany Spears is selling Pepsi? But people are influenced by what they see around them.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693351 - 07/07/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I agree that people are influenced by what they see around them. That can be good and bad. I see more and more movies now that have people doing drugs as a casual thing. There are also a lot of movies that just have to do with drugs (Blow, Fear and Lothing, requium for a dream...). Some of these movies make it seem that drugs are bad. Some make it seem that drugs are cool. And there are some that make it seem that using drugs is just a casual thing to do. Remember the movie The Cell where J-Lo smokes a joint before going to bed?

There are a lot of people with drug problems and I agree that they need to be helped. But do you think that by making drugs legal it would worsen these problems?

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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693355 - 07/07/03 02:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think there is a best way. Anyway that this happens could potentially cause alot of problems. I think they should start by sanctioning the selling of drugs (maybe open a goverment run shop in key cities), not by anyone. I think you should have to get a permit to grow your own (just to ensure that you are not selling illegally). I'm really not sure what all can be done, but there has to be a way.

I mean, when you look at it, there will have to be ALOT of changes if/when drugs become legal. Look at how many people are in/have been in jail or prison for drugs. What would we do with all of them, just release them. What about all the fines people have paid in the past for them. Lots of things to look at. I think this could be part of the reason American has not moved twords any type of legalization.



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693386 - 07/07/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think for a while, if everything just got legalized at once, it could really hurt some of the addicts. I mean availability 24/7. It would only increase the chances of them getting more. Think about it, right now if someone goes to buy crack (I know I keep using this one, it just seems like a good example of a highly abused drug, and to be honest I have no education about crack effects or addictiveness) and they mess with the dealer, they are likely to get shot. They don't want to die, they want drugs. But if they had a building that was storing mass amounts of this they might be more likely to find a way to break in (after all, then they only get jail time. not nearly as bad as 6 months of icu and then death, or hey maybe instant death) It seems that could cause a major problem.

I think there are alot of things to consider when looking at legalizing drugs. It would definatly make a huge impact on our society and our way of life. Maybe for better, maybe for worse. No one really knows. I support it simply because I don't think things you can do to yourself should be illegal.. Drugs, used on yourself I have no problem with. If I want to own an ak47 then I want to be able to buy one (I have no problem with licences and such for these things). Killing people, thats wrong it should be kept illegal, after all it involves someone other than yourself. I feel that if it is not hurting someone else, it should be legal. (and before people use this rebuttal, yes driving while using drugs would involve someone else if you got in a wreck, but same for alcohol or anything else, and it is legal. You can kill someone by not paying attention, they didnt outlaw that).

I honestly feel there are too many things to look at for the goverment to just 'make it all legal'.. but at the same time.. i dont feel that is should have ever been illegal



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693389 - 07/07/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

>>the lesson is to not smoke all the time an treat marijuana as you would treat any intoxicating substance like alcohol. <<


Yes, but I guess a lot of Americans have a hard time learning lessons as drinking and driving is still frequently practiced. The real lesson is as long as the government profits from it but goes to some extents to preach safe practice then its ok. Since they have already devilized marijuana, it would look bad on the government to bring legalization to it.

Anyone who thinks mushrooms should be legal must not realize that people are different from them; meaning not everyone could handle even 1 mushroom experience.


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AH HA....

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693391 - 07/07/03 02:29 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
There are a lot of people with drug problems and I agree that they need to be helped. But do you think that by making drugs legal it would worsen these problems?





Probably not, but there have been failed attempts at making drugs legal. Most of them failed because they were stupid ideas, like I think Sweden tried to sanction a park for any type of drug use being legal. That was a dumb idea because it was asking for junkies to flock to the park, creating a bad atmosphere. However, I also saw a special about a church in Amsterdam where they sold herion to people addicted in order for them to be able to function. That was a good idea because it gave the oppertunity for people for are addicted to herion to be able to live normal lives.

My point is that for legalization to work, it has to be implemented in smart way. I don't think there necessarly a best way to do it, like polarity said, but there is a risk that if things go bad it could create an anti-drug backlash, and that's what I personaly would be afriad of.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693484 - 07/07/03 02:55 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well of course as soon as drugs became legal, or any one particular drug, there would be a big yahoo and yippe amung drug users and they would go crazy. Also a lot of people would be angry and do stupid things. I believe eventually things would calm down though. There is the potential for abuse of the drugs as there is now. Maybe to start off a regulation system could be implimented such as some type of way of keeping track of how much drugs you purchase. Myabe only limit people to 7 grams a week of marijuana or something like that. It would at least be a start...

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OfflinePDU
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693505 - 07/07/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

That is just impossible. I dont think the first time anyone of us here were introduced to any kind of drug when we were in middle school most likely first said "I feel so enlightened, this is life changing" we said "im so fucked up" and broke into historical laughing for hours. Humans are drawn to drugs through natural curiosity although may also be influenced by outside pressures (media influence, peer pressure, etc.)

What im trying to say, is that if we didnt have people "trying to get fucked up" we wouldnt have any new ones cross over to "our side" to use responsibly.

However, now responsibility needs to be defined, using for fun or to get fucked up is no less responsible than using to battle your inner conflicts as long as nothing is imposed on anyone else.
Everyone here seems to think its wrong to get "fucked up" but its just fine, its just another way to trip...and its a very important way to trip, because there are always those who get "fucked up" and then "realize" and have more "valid" intentions (from the elitist shroomery perspective).


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693515 - 07/07/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Yup, that sounds like what a lot of countries are doing. It does prevent the intial yahoo from getting too large. In countries where marijuana, for example, is legal, it's acceptable and not a problem. I think that's a large enough model for what happens when it's taken out of the illegal market.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693517 - 07/07/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Then you would just have people who arent interested in using, buying their 7grams and reselling. Almost the same boat we are in now. I really think that if drugs weren't viewed as such a horrible thing in society maybe more addicts would be more willing to admit they have a problem and get help. Then again, maybe not.



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Offlinepolarity
vagabond
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 99
Loc: Jackson, MS
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693531 - 07/07/03 03:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

PDU: Good point, I said the same earlier

Posted earlier:
"while I somewhat agree with you and I want to see everything legalized (I'm a big fan of personal freedom) you can't really do that. I mean, what would give you the power to condem someone elses reasons."



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693569 - 07/07/03 03:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"them as what dies is the lucky ones"
(long john silver, matey, arrrr..)
~
"think of it as evolution in action"
(from niven & pournelle: _oath of fealty)
~
lessee...
over 18, maybe, for legal cannabis purchase...
simple fines for underage use...
ummmm, legalize home cultivation (like home brewing beer & wine...)
no advertising; "processed & prepared" herb through state-licensed vendors, with state "sin tax" right there (like liquor stores in most states, maybe...)

psychedelics... a bit harder, but... similar deal, maybe with proof of age ID (though wouldn't it be nice if you had to take a real test to get a "tripping license", heh...)

"harder" drugs (i dunno, refined cocaine & narcotics, stuff with actual potential for abuse and toxicitiy) --- well, coca leaf & poppy pods are one th ing, but pure alkaloids might need tighter controls --- well, high-quality smack would only cast a couple dollars per day, but have it licensed to "registered" narco users, with stiff penalties for "reselling" to non-licensed individuals...

~
~
no more criminals with turf wars...
no more crooked cops on the take...
no more courts clogged with victimless crimes (or what should be simple business transactions between consenting adults...)
no more jails filled with people whose mistake was looking for a "buzz" not sanctioned by the state...
no more locking up people for liking the wrong kind of plants...
no more legislating morality...
~
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1693601 - 07/07/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

gnrm:

How can you justify the legalization of some drugs and not others. How can you explain to the guys in prison, 'ok you, you, and you get to go home. You don't because you snorted some crack instead of smoking the reefer'
You can't do that, if you do it may be ok for a year or two, then there will just be another group of people saying "make my drug legal". IMHO it should be all or none. This may make it harder to control and do, but you can't have it both ways. Either drugs are bad/illegal/immoral or they are not. While I agree some drugs are more addictive, have a better chance that you will get addicted or have some type of problem for them. Isn't that up to the user to decide if they want to chance it. The same as it is up to the user of pot or mushrooms if they want to take it and maybe have problems later in life, same for an alcoholic or a smoker.. You can't just take some and say ok, but the rest are no good..



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693747 - 07/07/03 04:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

polarity said:
gnrm:

How can you justify the legalization of some drugs and not others. How can you explain to the guys in prison, 'ok you, you, and you get to go home. You don't because you snorted some crack instead of smoking the reefer'
You can't do that, if you do it may be ok for a year or two, then there will just be another group of people saying "make my drug legal". IMHO it should be all or none. This may make it harder to control and do, but you can't have it both ways. Either drugs are bad/illegal/immoral or they are not. While I agree some drugs are more addictive, have a better chance that you will get addicted or have some type of problem for them. Isn't that up to the user to decide if they want to chance it. The same as it is up to the user of pot or mushrooms if they want to take it and maybe have problems later in life, same for an alcoholic or a smoker.. You can't just take some and say ok, but the rest are no good..






What are you talking about? Thats how it is now, so you sure can have it..some but not all.

"then there will just be another group of people saying "make my drug legal""

Thats how it is. Basically that post explained the current situation exactly.

How can you justify the legalization of some, and not others? By looking at the potential for abuse danger and death which is individual to each substance. Yes...we know we should have personal freedom to do ingest whatever we want no matter how dangerous, but look at reality...Its not going to be ALL or NONE. The US would be more prepared to go for NONE rather than ALL dont you think? Are you prepared for NONE?


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

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Invisiblesoochi
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693824 - 07/07/03 04:56 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Peer pressure. Social, political, professional, you name it. also the stigma that places certain ideals on a group of people. Take for example the way society expects men to act when it comes to dating. If a man sleeps with a lot of women it is acceptable, if a woman does it then she's a slut. Same goes for drug use, a lot of teenagers use drugs as a way of initiation or a method for allowing someone into their social group or to gain acceptance from a group of people. This is what recreational drug use stems from. A social order that some people deem neccessary in order to feel superior to someone else or to another social group. Also, providing the correct information regarding drugs, such as their physcial and mental effects, their long term effects and so on. The elimination of false information that over the years the majority of society regards as true. The overall sense of belonging, this along with the described reasons above all stem from human nature, and until we can accept each other as equals then the war on drugs will continue to be fought and lost.

But that's just my humble opinion.


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: soochi]
    #1694040 - 07/07/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

PDU: that is how it will most likely be. It's a simple fact that people will never be happy. What would make them legalize pot and not mushrooms, or the other way around. Don't get me wrong, I would rather that something was legal, but it will never end. If they decide to make pot legal they are just going to go through the exact thing in another few years with mushrooms, or x, or something else. It doesn't matter what the potential for danger or death is. Bottom line is people are never happy with what they have. Legalizing pot will just be one step. There would have to be many many more to follow if they wanted to make this argument die.

People are saying legalizing it would make less violence around the drugs right? Why, if you leave all the "hardcore" drugs illegal you did nothing. You made it easier to get pot or mushrooms or something like that. You will still have all the stealing/killing/etc that goes along with a true addiction. Even if it's legal it will still be there. The only real reason to make drugs legal, because the people want it, and even that reason is questionable. It's a fact that can't really be argued.



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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1694487 - 07/07/03 08:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

From reading gnrm's post, I don't see where he was favouring legalising one drug over another. He listed options for cannabis, pyschedelics AND hard drugs.

Edited by Sheepish (07/07/03 08:52 PM)

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Sheepish]
    #1695686 - 07/08/03 06:17 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

used to be able to buy morphine, heroin, & cocaine products from the sears catalog...
and "soothing syrups" and all sorts of herbals preparations could be legally purchased at your local apothecary...
and the main pressure against drug usage (and alcohol usage, etc) was from societal disapproval...
and the percentage of people with serious substsance abouse problems was pretty much the same as it is today...
but the shrill yelpings of politicians (against opiate users, cocaine usres, alcohol users, marihuana users, psychedelic users) got laws passed making the users criminals...
adults should be allowed to do as they wish with their own bodies and minds...
i think that a heroin addict should be able to purchase pure junk at medical supply prices...
hell, if you think that strychnine is a medicinal tonic (and it is), go for it....
and if you think that jimpson weed will cure your reality problem, well, there aren't any laws against it (well, not against the plant...) well, good luck...
you'd rather do PMA instead of MDMA? well, why?
one possible good thing about governmental controls would be the purity issue, no?
the problem is that people who seriously fuck themselves up still end up somehow having "the state" pay for their screwups...
and who should pay the medical bills (hell, the funeral expenses) for the casualties??? in this statist/capitalist society, somebody ends up having to foot the bill... and that seems to be a problem...
and, you must admitt, there are risks involved with consuming drugs... there are risks riding a plane, flying a plane,parachuting out of a plane, skiing, driving a car, smoking a cigarette, rollerblading... and some of them can be covered by insurance... some of them require insurance... maybe as part of "drug user licensing" could involve not only required education/testing, but fees/insurance/taxes to help pay for the casualties... (does some of the exorbinant taxes imposed on cigarettes (in the united states) go to pay for educational advertisment & medical expenses for the population at large, and smmokers in particular? and how much is revenue for the general fund?)
thorny problems, but in general, i support access to a variety of medicaments (including psychotropics) the the adult population... but not totally "unrestriced" access to everything...
but, realistically, the present governmental system (and medical, and society at large) are not ready for that...
and some of the riskier activites should have more limits than some of the relatively safer ones, imho...
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1695752 - 07/08/03 07:04 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

i feel more responsible when I am fucked up.

hahahaha

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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: dilatedcreature]
    #1695761 - 07/08/03 07:07 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

gnrm: I retract my statement, I reread your post and I think we are saying the same thing. Sorry about that, I thought you were saying that we should only legalize pot.

I'm really enjoying this converstaion, I hope you keep it up guys. It gives me something to do and to think about while I'm at work (my job is rather boring).


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1696052 - 07/08/03 10:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, first of all, I think this whole voting thing has been completely corrupted. you only have two choices, if you can call them that. You either vote for democrat or republican. And what if you dont like either of them. You are fucked. There is no point voting for any other party because there is no chance that they are going to win anyway. So i dont even see how voting even really helps.
Second of all, i think it is impossible to legalize all drugs. Maybe a long time ago that was possible, but now there are so many differnt kinds of drugs out there it would be impossible to legaliza them all. Especally when new drugs are coming out all the time. I think legalizing marijuana would be a very big step. It may not be perfect but would you rather have all drgs be illegal or at least one that (almost) everybody enjoys?

Things have to be taken slowly in order to see the problems that can occur as a result. That is what Canada is doing right now. They are taking a small step by decriminalizing marijuana, but it is still illegal. Maybe after some years pass by and nothing bad happens the penalties for pot possesion in Canada will slowly deminish and eventually it will become legal. The same thing will probably happen to mushrooms and maybe eventually to all other drugs.

There are only a few drugs that people should do. Everything else is just a waste of time. There is marijuana, mushrooms, LSD, salvia, opium, alcohol, tobacco, cocainand maybe a few others that i havent mentioned. All other drugs are just spin-offs of these drugs in my opinion. If these drugs were legal why would people take substitutes?

Plus i dont think there would be hardly any dealing of drugs if they were legal. do you see people going around stealing cigarettes all the time? If the drug is available then why would people go out and steal it? Well now of course there will be some theft because people steal cigarettes all the time but it will not be as previlant as other drug crimes. Peopel are not going to go around and shoot you for a pack of cigs. If marijuana was legal why would they do the same?

And yes PDU I agree with the part about getting fucked up. Thats why i said i like getting fucked up sometimes. But that is not the only reason i use Entheogens. I use them to enlighten my thoughts. What i am saying is when people are ready they need to understand this. drugs are not just used to fuck you up. That is why non-Entheogen drugs are stupid in my opinion, even though they can be fun. Maybe we should just legalize Entheogens. But how will you define a drug as being an Entheogen....?

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1697159 - 07/08/03 05:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I could classify an entheogen as something which naturally grows upon this earth that is unadultered by manufacturing process, and that can produce an eccstatic visionary experience.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1699265 - 07/09/03 10:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

something like that

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1700309 - 07/09/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
Second of all, i think it is impossible to legalize all drugs. Maybe a long time ago that was possible, but now there are so many differnt kinds of drugs out there it would be impossible to legaliza them all. Especally when new drugs are coming out all the time. ....?




Ill tell ya how you legalize all drugs. You say 'all drugs are legal, we will no longer be arrogant enough to tell people what they can do with their bodies'. Whats so hard about that? I dont understand where youre coming from. Its very possible and very easy. Lots of people will lose jobs, 'drug war' assholes. I think they deserve to be jobless. Fuck I think they deserve to do all the prison time that they ever inflicted upon innocent people for expressing their freedom.

Are you talking about government control and taxation? or social health rehab centers? If so, these problems can be fixed with the money currently spent on the drug war very easily with a shitload of cash leftover.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1700495 - 07/09/03 06:05 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I agree...its easy to say that all drugs should be legalized and we deserve our freedom. Though i suspect to put it into practice would be much harder. Ive seen people (close friends) get totally hooked on coke after one sniff. I am in FULL support of our freedoms, but we need to look at the facts..Look how many people get hooked on tobacco because its socially acceptable. It doesnt take long...Its a social thing that turns into a regular addiction. What would be any different about cocaine, or heroin, or others? Cocaine is alot more destructive than tobacco...and the new generations who would be raised without the drug war...raised without thinking drugs like cocaine are socially irresponsible would surly quickly destroy themselves quickly..


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1700509 - 07/09/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

PDU, FULL support of our freedoms also means learning to allow people to hurt themselves if they choose to. If drug "a" is deemed physically/biologically addictive...and you're willing to take the chance of getting hooked just to try it...that's on YOUR shoulders; nobody else's.

Love & Light,

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Boppity604]
    #1700567 - 07/09/03 06:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

but you cant deny the social reprecussions mass addiction and social acceptance of super harmful substances would bring. That would be on all our shoulders to take care of them and take care of all the problems they cause (would junkies not still steal and mug to get a fix if they could buy blow in a corner store?)


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Offlinelateralus
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1700713 - 07/09/03 07:44 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I dont believe for 1 second that legalisation across the board would lead to any more addicts than there already are. In countries where certain drugs have been legalised there is an increase in recreational use, however addiction percentages remain the same. So saying there would be a mass addiction epidemic is ignoring a history that proves otherwise.

As far as people getting hooked because of social acceptance, that could be solved quite easily with drug education starting in schools. It could be paid for with part of the money currently spent on the drug war.

I agree with boppity, people are responsible for themselves.

Speaking for myself, I think anyone who goes and gets hooked on a powerful drug because they didnt research the possible negative repercussions first, is essentially 'making their own bed and lying in it'.

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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1700900 - 07/09/03 09:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

>>but you cant deny the social reprecussions mass addiction and social acceptance of super harmful substances would bring.

Bring? With all due respect friend, they're already HERE.

Legalization is one topic; one problem. Helping addicts, regardless of what their addiction is, is another.

I would MUCH rather have addicts who want to break free be given proper treatment and therapies as well as allowed supervised doses if they want them. Better to have them being dosed by clean/pure chemicals that the therapist administers than to have them roaming/working streets for a dirty fix.

You can't say it's on our shoulders...it's still on the addicts'. THEY have to WANT to change. If you're addicted to sex or eating or a specific drug, is it on my shoulder to pity you? Or is it better that I don't pity you but show you other options with which you can empower yourself to brake the addictions you have?

Addiction is a very real problem. I'm not denying its power over people who fall into it. I've never been addicted to anything, so I can't say I know what it's like. I do know, however, that no matter how bad things get, we can still make our life "proper." It's all up to US as individuals to do what is necessary to make it right. Whether it's learning how to have a healthy relationship with our spouse, or stop lying, or get off smack. Addictions begin with the individual and his/her reality. They need to realize how they've empowered the addiction in the first place. If it's a chemical addiction, I'm all for rapid detox programs that include follow-up therapy to help keep the individual adjusted. But even that is a step they must WANT to take for themselves.

I have no right to impose anything on anyone who doesn't want to do it; no matter how much I may want them to. If someone asks me for help, I offer it the best way I know how. If someone asks for my opinion, I offer it as honestly as I know how. But I cannot do anything for anyone except show them a different way to view things...it's up to them to either agree or disagree with this new viewpoint and to internalize it and accept it as part of their new reality.

Love & Light,

Boppity

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Boppity604]
    #1700953 - 07/09/03 09:30 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Comparing fast food or tobacco or whatever you think are "already here" to cocaine and heroin is just...not a good argument. Sure i guess pharms such as oxycotin are "already here" and very destructive...Look at the abuse of oxycotin..i remember a year or so ago seeing all the tv specials about the "epidemic"...you dont think legal cocaine and heroin would follow a similar route?

You mentioned wanting addicts to be in supervised settings with a pure chemical...Well that costs more. Does an addict care...especially when he doesnt have money? As any regular drug user knows...a "ritual" of use develops...be it smoking or injecting or whatever...Why would an addict wait longer to get more money to get cleaner stuff and ruin his ritual?

About being on our shoulders, i wasnt refering to pity. Socially...whose going to take care of all these socially acceptable addicts...that start selling their possession's, and getting behind on the rent? Stealing? Most addicts might want to change...but its not as easy as that, its a culture and its the most important part of their lifes. Its like cutting yourself off from your family for the rest of your life, who would want to do that?

I mean...you said we would have to have real drug education in school's. What are you thinking? We all know what smoking does to you, hell...in my highschool we had to rate anti drug and anti tobacco commercials...some of which were certainly graphic, did that stop at least 75% of my friends from getting addicted? Curiosity would get the best of these people...I imagine Coke would still have same "highclass" stigma it has now...and that attracts people to it. When i was a kid...hell, until i was in JR high i didnt think there was cocaine anywhere around me, when it was all around me. I thought cocaine was the devil...everyone did, and now its a school full of coke heads...Its not just my school... I imagine this would happen much sooner if we had of all known it was around, perhaps in a corner store, or medicine cabinet.

It is my belief Legalizing all drug's would never happen without a revolution, and its basically idealistic illusion of grandeur.


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Offlinelateralus
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1701154 - 07/09/03 10:41 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Comparing fast food or tobacco or whatever you think are "already here" to cocaine and heroin is just...not a good argument. Sure i guess pharms such as oxycotin are "already here" and very destructive...Look at the abuse of oxycotin..i remember a year or so ago seeing all the tv specials about the "epidemic"...you dont think legal cocaine and heroin would follow a similar route?



So youre saying because some drugs have more negative consequences than other drugs, we need to illegalise and imprison responsible users of the same drug because of it?
Quote:

PDU said:
You mentioned wanting addicts to be in supervised settings with a pure chemical...Well that costs more. Does an addict care...especially when he doesnt have money? As any regular drug user knows...a "ritual" of use develops...be it smoking or injecting or whatever...Why would an addict wait longer to get more money to get cleaner stuff and ruin his ritual?



Drugs sold by the government would not only be safer, but be cheaper than they are on the street now by cutting out the middlemen, the black market.
Quote:

PDU said:
About being on our shoulders, i wasnt refering to pity. Socially...whose going to take care of all these socially acceptable addicts...that start selling their possession's, and getting behind on the rent? Stealing? Most addicts might want to change...but its not as easy as that, its a culture and its the most important part of their lifes. Its like cutting yourself off from your family for the rest of your life, who would want to do that?



First of all there will be no 'socially acceptable addicts'. Being a person who has no control of yourself will still be unacceptable to most of society. Second, these addicts will be no larger in number than they are now. Think about it, if they legalised crack tomorrow, would you go out and do it? I know I wouldnt, and the people that *would* are already doing it regardless of legality.
Quote:

PDU said:
I mean...you said we would have to have real drug education in school's. What are you thinking? We all know what smoking does to you, hell...in my highschool we had to rate anti drug and anti tobacco commercials...some of which were certainly graphic, did that stop at least 75% of my friends from getting addicted? Curiosity would get the best of these people...I imagine Coke would still have same "highclass" stigma it has now...and that attracts people to it. When i was a kid...hell, until i was in JR high i didnt think there was cocaine anywhere around me, when it was all around me. I thought cocaine was the devil...everyone did, and now its a school full of coke heads...Its not just my school... I imagine this would happen much sooner if we had of all known it was around, perhaps in a corner store, or medicine cabinet.



Notice how you said 'and now its a school full of cokeheads' This happened regardless of legality didnt it?
Quote:

PDU said:
It is my belief Legalizing all drug's would never happen without a revolution, and its basically idealistic illusion of grandeur.



Its not a 'delusion of grandeur' it can be a reality if more people quit looking at it through eyes glazed over with propaganda and outright untruths. This is the problem that needs to be solved before drugs can have any hope of becoming legal. People need to stop bullshitting themselves like this.
I think Terence McKenna said it well:
"The living fact of the mystery of being is there, and it is an inalienable religious right to be able to approach it on one's own terms. A civilised society would enshrine that principle in law.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1701308 - 07/09/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"So youre saying because some drugs have more negative consequences than other drugs, we need to illegalise and imprison responsible users of the same drug because of it?"

No, im asking for you to address the problems that legalizing these drugs will create rather than avoiding the issues at hand. Whose going to take responsibility for those who arnt responsible? In western culture where drug's arnt seen in a religious or sacramental or even "special" thing by MOST people, responsibility isnt a main concern with ...dare i say...a majority of drug users. So...how about it? What about the irresponsible ones..


"Drugs sold by the government would not only be safer, but be cheaper than they are on the street now by cutting out the middlemen, the black market."

How? The government isnt immune to greed...we all know that. Earlier in this thread people were ranting about capitalizing off the gigantic amount of profit legalizing all drugs would make. How is it going to be cheaper...hiring medical professionals, in specially built places to harbor addicts, who would administer the highest quality most refined product to PEOPLE WITH NO MONEY.


"First of all there will be no 'socially acceptable addicts'. Being a person who has no control of yourself will still be unacceptable to most of society. Second, these addicts will be no larger in number than they are now. Think about it, if they legalised crack tomorrow, would you go out and do it? I know I wouldnt, and the people that *would* are already doing it regardless of legality."

Has tobacco not become an acceptable addiction? Crap food? Even alcohol...the business man that comes home 6 nights a week and has 3 shots and 2 beers, perfectly acceptable. And as i said...with easier availability and very little demonization, the future generations, i feel, would be more inclined to quench their curiosity. Perhaps feeling a bit sad...go to the corner store and sniff a line. ya know? YES, people who arnt going to deal with the dirty dealer on the corner store who might be selling heroin cut with drywall WOULD be MUCH MORE inclined to go to the pharmacy where they could be just like the people buying their mind altering prozac and paxil perscriptions.

"Notice how you said 'and now its a school full of cokeheads' This happened regardless of legality didnt it?"

Sure did, and now my friends have holes in their nose's, and nasty habits they cant get off of. Yup, ive discovered their pulling major B'N'E's, and even getting involved with seriously hurting people. So why would you want to perpetate such a thing...as it happens nearly everywhere there are addicts to menacing substances.

Theres no difference to an addict if he's giving his dirty money to a store or to a street dealer..he's still getting his fix.

"Its not a 'delusion of grandeur' it can be a reality if more people quit looking at it through eyes glazed over with propaganda and outright untruths. This is the problem that needs to be solved before drugs can have any hope of becoming legal. People need to stop bullshitting themselves like this."

It could happen..maybe..maybe one day. But do you think the american government is going to just say to the people "everything we've forced on you for the past 70 years regarding substances was a lie. We are liers" Of course not, Lord only knows what would happen if most of the state's were revealed the truth...the revolution might just happen. "Re educating" the american people would basically be a kick in the face and calling them fools, and i dont think they would take kindly to that.
I think many other issues not be resolved aside from propaganda and half truths. You can start with my questions above.
(im enjoying this debate...its weird because im in support of your side, just more jaded than you, i suppose ive lost my hope.)


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1701853 - 07/10/03 05:55 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

First of all I don't think there's anything wrong with people who use drugs to "get fucked up" its their choice, but they need to be educated to use drugs responsibly. They can get as "fucked up" as they like, so long as they aren't casuing harm to other people or propert, and making sure they are looking outr for themselves.

Education is the key. All drugs should be legalised imnsho, and all drugs can be used responsibly, the problem is people don't learn anywhere near enough about the drugs they use (alcohol included). This is where our governments' resources would be best used, teaching people how to use drugs responsibly, rather than wasting it on try to enforce prohibition.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: tooky]
    #1701938 - 07/10/03 08:20 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Somebody is going to get addicted even if the substance is legal or not. I think legalizing it would get rid of a lot of other problems, which is good. There will still be addicts.
I agree that people need to learn how to use drugs responcibly. This could happen easily through TV ads or by parents or teachers. A drug class could happen. Hell, there is already the DARE program.
If drugs became legal today do you think the amount of people that use drugs would go up, and the quantity? What about the next generation? Would more people do drugs than now?

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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1702344 - 07/10/03 11:51 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

>>you said we would have to have real drug education in school's.

I didn't say that...someone else in the thread did.

Love & Light,

Boppity

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Offlinelateralus
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1702659 - 07/10/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
If drugs became legal today do you think the amount of people that use drugs would go up, and the quantity? What about the next generation? Would more people do drugs than now?



In countries where they have already legalized certain drugs the rates of addiction have not risen as a result. Recreational use goes up, but there will always be a core number of users who will refuse to educate themselves beforehand and become addicted. I don't see why it would be any different here.

One of the negative things about the drug war is the fact that it makes drugs look like they take your free will away, when in fact they don't. Drugs are not monsters. They tell kids in school "Don't even try it once otherwise you'll become addicted and not have any choice wether you quit or not" "theyll ruin your life...' blah, blah. It's not true. What is true is the fact that most people who try a drug DON'T get addicted, and are in fact able to use responsibly or recreationally. Look at alcohol, nearly every single person tries it here in america, but theres only a small percentage of people who let it ruin their lives, or who overindulge like idiots.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1702744 - 07/10/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lateralus said:
Quote:

crazycanadian said:
If drugs became legal today do you think the amount of people that use drugs would go up, and the quantity? What about the next generation? Would more people do drugs than now?



In countries where they have already legalized certain drugs the rates of addiction have not risen as a result. Recreational use goes up, but there will always be a core number of users who will refuse to educate themselves beforehand and become addicted. I don't see why it would be any different here.

One of the negative things about the drug war is the fact that it makes drugs look like they take your free will away, when in fact they don't. Drugs are not monsters. They tell kids in school "Don't even try it once otherwise you'll become addicted and not have any choice wether you quit or not" "theyll ruin your life...' blah, blah. It's not true. What is true is the fact that most people who try a drug DON'T get addicted, and are in fact able to use responsibly or recreationally. Look at alcohol, nearly every single person tries it here in america, but theres only a small percentage of people who let it ruin their lives, or who overindulge like idiots.




Could you point us to examples besides amsterdam and nimbin about the legal drugs and addiction rates? Drugs arnt monsters, your absolutely right, but kids pressured through peer pressure, young adults through social status pressure, and adults just looking for a pick me up are much more likely to be involved with substances that are made EASILY available...especially if the RISK of having less than certain street drugs are taken away. The huge abuse of oxycotin could be a single example..its perfectly fine to snort a 100 dollar pill...to LOTS of people, but street heroin is for junkies. Do you deny there is an OUT-Of-Control oxycotin abuse going on? Do you deny that its not ruining lives?

So as i asked before; Whose going to take responsibility for those who arnt responsible?
How are drugs going to be cheaper, as i believe, you, claimed...for people with no money, and the money they use is Dirty?
So is the american government gonna tell them theyve been lying to the people adamently and demonizing heir own kind for 70 years now?

If you want anyone...to one day take you seriously, you are going to have to adress the problems i stated in my previous post.
This is like an anarchist preaching for anarchy in a democratic world..the argument is too flawed to be taken seriously by anyone who could ever effect change (think voters.)


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1704242 - 07/10/03 09:51 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Could you point us to examples besides amsterdam and nimbin about the legal drugs and addiction rates? Drugs arnt monsters, your absolutely right, but kids pressured through peer pressure, young adults through social status pressure, and adults just looking for a pick me up are much more likely to be involved with substances that are made EASILY available...especially if the RISK of having less than certain street drugs are taken away. The huge abuse of oxycotin could be a single example..its perfectly fine to snort a 100 dollar pill...to LOTS of people, but street heroin is for junkies. Do you deny there is an OUT-Of-Control oxycotin abuse going on? Do you deny that its not ruining lives?



This is a good site where you can get a lot of addiction percentage info(with links to credible sites for their own info)http://www.drugwarfacts.org/ Or you could just do a search for 'drug war' 'addiction rates' etc. If you don't see that the drug war is nothing but harmful... I guess thats your own problem. The proof is everywhere. And yes I do deny that drugs are ruining lives. Drugs ruin nothing. Irresponsible, ignorant people ruin their own lives. Misplacing the blame on drugs is one of the things that has to stop. If it wasn't oxycontin, it'd be something else for these same addicted people. Quit blaming the inanimate objects on these peoples own irresponsibility.
Quote:


So as i asked before; Whose going to take responsibility for those who arnt responsible?
How are drugs going to be cheaper, as i believe, you, claimed...for people with no money, and the money they use is Dirty?
So is the american government gonna tell them theyve been lying to the people adamently and demonizing heir own kind for 70 years now?



Whos going to take responsibility for someone else actions? That doesn't make any sense. Are you trying to say the government would be responsible for 'putting these people in danger of themselves'? for 'making it easier for idiots to hurt themselves by making drugs legal'? I dont get what youre saying there, thats an oxymoron. People are responsible for their own actions. If they commit a crime trying to get drugs(i.e. robbery) then they will do the time as usual. I don't believe the legalization of drugs would create more thug criminals than there already are.

Drugs would in all likleyhood become cheaper with the cutting out of the black market 'hand me down and mark it up' middlemen. Nobody can say for sure that drugs will be more expensive/cheaper, because it hasnt happened yet. I would personally assume though that it'd be similar to alcohol or tobacco, nowhere near so spendy the average person couldnt get ahold of them cheaply and easily. The government would have their huge tax on it of course, but I do believe theres an upper-level limit to how high an item like a drug(which is cheap as dirt to produce) can go for. They will be sold by independant labs and growers who will be out to make a buck, and if they overprice them, they'll never make a sale.

"My fellow americans, we are liars." Boy it would sure as hell be nice! No, I don't think they'd ever say that. However, yes, they would have to admit they were wrong in some way, shape or form. Including pardoning all prison and jail inmates who had only drug violations(no trafficking or violent crimes). They need to admit they have been wrong, that they're sorry, and that they're going to change. Admit that it is not in the interest of freedom to be taking away peoples rights and property, locking them up for pursuing happiness. Thats a constitutional right: the pursuit of happiness. It needs to be looked at like a lifestyle choice such as homosexuality or religion. People said letting women vote would ruin the american society, people said freeing slaves would cause crime. "There will be chaos! and crime! and destruction! and immoral activity!" they shouted. They were wrong then, and they're wrong now.
Quote:


If you want anyone...to one day take you seriously, you are going to have to adress the problems i stated in my previous post.
This is like an anarchist preaching for anarchy in a democratic world..the argument is too flawed to be taken seriously by anyone who could ever effect change (think voters.)



I really don't care if anyone takes me seriously or not, this is all my opinion. I'm not a politician here, I really don't care to 'get the voters on my side'. Im going to live my life free regardless. The war on drugs will end, it's only a question of how and when. This government is choking under its own weight right now as it is. It's the fact that our freedoms have been taken away since the beginning is surfacing more and more. People are waking up at an unprecedented rate right now in america. It's only my opinion, but I think it'll be 'sink or swim' before long(if it isn't already). This society is too corrupt to hold on much longer(not to mention the world is pissed with us and our 'for us or against us' policy). I see drugs and our human relationship with nature(lack there of) as a key problem in this whole situation. They whole idea of freedom needs to be either actually and truly upheld as its written now, or completely reworked.

I did reply to your last post but it dissapeared in the posting:/ I think you may be right- maybe it is impossible. The 'issues' just arent the same for me. For me the issue is freedom. I believe that any bad that comes from legalization of drugs would be better than the hell and persecution we responsible entheogen users have to face daily as a result of the ridiculous 'war on freedom'.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1704311 - 07/10/03 10:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

alright, i can appreciate that post. Obviously we disagree, but the issue is the same for us...Freedom, we both value it to the fullest extent. Its pointless to have this ideological clashing of minds, but its been fun.

Not so sure what hell and persecution we as entheogen users experience though. I guess its definately different in the states, but i think people OD'ing on super pure heroin and busting lines in the family bathroom's is kind more a social problem than hurt feelings for drug users. Yeah...i dont want to be put down because of my beliefs either, held back, denied, or anything else....but i suppose ive accepted it, and the losing battle. I practice my own freedom's and dont intrude upon anyone else's and i have NO problems with the law ever....That would be how everyone in this ideological situation of "legalized drugs" would have to be, respectful. But greed among many other things will always keep lots of people away from being respectful, and these people are the reason the war on drugs, in my opinion will continue on..

(i was recently hearing about a time line to eradicated coca plants, opium poppies, and marijuana completely from this earth, awhile ago on the radio...the DEA clearly has BIG plans and are getting ever more persistant. The columbians having their towns overwashed with poison spray are some serious victims of the drug war...much more so than most of us.)

Its sad, it sucks big time, but the best we can do is practice our freedom's in a respectful manner, personally, and hope we are given respect in return. It works swell for me...here in BC, and i realize the states is very different...


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1704399 - 07/10/03 10:57 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

What I meant by the persecution we experience is: We have prison held over our heads constantly, we cant speak freely in public about our lifestyle, we get fired from jobs if we are found to be using certain drugs, we have to submit to preemployment and random drug tests, basically all that stuff. We have fear over our heads constantly.

I read about those DEA plans as well. That has to be some of the craziest, scariest stuff ive heared about this drug war yet. Complete global eradication of species of plants. Thats insane. Those Columbians do have it really bad with all those chemicals:(

Canada is definately a step ahead in the personal freedom area. Ive been thinking of moving there myself, or anywhere thats even a little more free than here. 3/4s of our prison population here are drug offenders, not only that, we have one of the highest percentage of citizens incarcerated of all countries on the planet(if not THE highest). The tactics that our wonderful DEA uses to get you in prison are hellish. They trick, lie and cheat people into prison here basically. They arent helping anyone but themselves(and our booming prison industry). It's a sad situation. They say 'If you don't like it here then move' here now, and thats exactly what Im going to do. :smile:

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1704456 - 07/10/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry i was too lazy too read all of what was said. I'm a bit tired.

The only way to get rid of the "i get fucked up"'s (IGFU's) is to spread knowledge. But with the suppression of vital entheogenic knowledge by the gov't, they IGFU's will always be around. Most user's i know don't know anything about what they put in their bodies. it's kinda, no, really sad. :frown:

-howardo

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1704472 - 07/10/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Arresting med pot users who are liscensed by the states is absolutely ridiculous... or raiding pipe stores with swat teams? Like what in the hell is going through these officers heads? Have they actually been submitted to enough repetitive rhetoric that they believe they are fighting the good fight? It amazes me.

Anyways...i imagine you would really enjoy it up here...Some people make it out to be pretty rough still, but ive toked openly all over BC and never once been hassled, i trip...and i spread a good happy vibe to those around me in public, i chat it up with the police officers and debate the taboo issue's with near anyone, and rarely do i even get an snobbish attitude towards me.
Now...it needs to be how it is for me, for everyone responsible, and it is a fight worth fighting for. Everytime i read about the state's im reminded of that. Good discussion guys!



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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Howardo]
    #1704483 - 07/10/03 11:30 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Howardo said:
I'm sorry i was too lazy too read all of what was said. I'm a bit tired.

The only way to get rid of the "i get fucked up"'s (IGFU's) is to spread knowledge. But with the suppression of vital entheogenic knowledge by the gov't, they IGFU's will always be around. Most user's i know don't know anything about what they put in their bodies. it's kinda, no, really sad. :frown:

-howardo 




Very freightening infact. I dont know how people could put the most powerful chemicals known to man in their bodies without prior knowledge other than my (or an idiots) comforting words...informed or not, they take it as the truth..which could potentially impact their life. Was i ever reminded of peoples irresponsibility when i got DMT..people who had never heard of it, and i had just introduced as "the most powerful drug you will ever find, it will kick your ass, and you might have to surrender to your own internal death" was responded to with: "les give it a go man, hook me up"....
Even with all the knowledge in the world, some responsible precautions are just too hard to validate the effort for alot of people.


 


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1704493 - 07/10/03 11:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Too true, too true. Too many of my friends are the same way. Like hte old saying, "Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source."

that should be commandment # 11...... oh wait, no one follows those either, oh well..

har har har

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Howardo]
    #1704511 - 07/10/03 11:45 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Ive actually got a "drug shirt" planned...thats going to DMT molecule on the front, and on the back the list of drugs i enjoy and along the bottm "know your self, know your substance, know your source..."

Its good advice, and itll keep you safe....its worked fairly well for me.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1712269 - 07/13/03 06:40 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I thought this was interesting, but a good example why not to have legalized freedoms, such as drugs.


"In 1898, E. Merck of Darmstadt marketed the ethyl ether of morphine, called 'Dionin', which was the first semisynthetic morphine derivative, to serve as a cough sedative. That same year Heinrich Dreser of Friedrich Bayer and Company introduced diacetylmorphine (acetylated morphine) as the "heroic drug," having the ability of morphine to relieve but being "safer." Under the proprietary name 'Heroin' (diamorphine), this drug quickly became popular worldwide (Bayer had a very large painkilling business with Heroin and Aspirin!). The very strong heroin was widely prescribed and could be purchased by mail order through the Sears, Roebuck catalog. By 1900, there were an estimated 1,000,000 opiate addicts in the United States, often addicted by accident. So even though it was initially hailed as a nonaddictive morphine substitute, heroin actually was metabolized twice as fast, and 6-monoacetylmorphine, the first breakdown product of heroin, is four times more potent, yielding a combined effect of both chemicals and a drug with very high physical dependence capacity, in fact, actually one of the most addictive drugs ever used in medicine. Governments, under pressure, were compelled to introduce laws on dangerous drugs, and responsible companies stopped using and supplying opiates. In the U.S. opium was eventually placed under federal restrictions by the Harrison Act of 1914. Finally, in 1929 the Rockefeller Foundation and government agencies began a research program to find nonaddictive morphine-like chemicals and analgesics."



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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1713187 - 07/14/03 12:29 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

we (the responsibles) are fucked forever, we were born into slavery and our thirst for altered consiousness waives our right to compassion. simultaneously a large well-trained/equiped/brainwashed force is constantly mobilized to prevent our crusade from ever getting off the ground. beware, my friends, the road less traveled is oft gaurded and traped, your only trustable ally is yourself and you won't wake up. all we have is our mind and our cause. they have the money, they have the power. only pray they don't take you alive.

but i'm tired, i'll be back tommorow and lots more constuctive.

i still have hope. peace.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1713685 - 07/14/03 08:21 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

ok, after sleep this is what i think, we would need to apeal to the court system to overturn the ruling that says the Native American Church cannot use peyote in its rituals, we would have to simulataeously show that responsible and spiritual use of mescaline and other entheogens is harmless, we would also have to prove that it is a worthwhile experience. once we broke down the barrier about entheogens in religion, it could become a solid defense if caught, but if it didn't work, i wouldn't expect to see anything be mary jane and maybe shrooms legalized in my lifetime. i think any drug besides something absolutely safe would never be legalized and that most religious entheogen use could see an upswing in support and symapathy by the new age/ex-hippie group once we went public.
we would need a good lawyer, a large grassroots base and would have to focus on old and present religious groups or individuals that use entheogens for religious purposes otherwise uh-uh, not this century.

oh, and you all would most likely have to come out of the proverbial closet in terms of entheogen use which could be dangeous with that big mutt the DEA watching your everymove.

if the religious freedom argument worked then we could work on recreational use of entheogens and then perhaps even strech our fingers towards the grial of the "right to get high" or the right to alter one's consiousness as one sees fit" it would be a long hard road and chances are _we_ would not reap the final rewards, but the impications would be huge...


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1713844 - 07/14/03 10:16 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think that destroying all the plants will never happen. The DEA has to be fucking idiots (well we know that is true). I mean how much would something like that cost? Plus how can they go and do that in other countries. I could see them trying to do it in the US but like Canada and over in Europe...give me a break. Plus i dont think that would solve anything because people would still grow shit and sell shit. What morons.

I agree with the above post about religious freedom and all that. It really is a natural right to do what you want to your body. It is also true that it is religious. But you know what would happen? People would all just decalre their religion so they could do drugs and they could get away with it because nobody can really deny you of your religion. That could be a potential probelm. I think you make up your own religion anyway. Being brought up in a religion and being told what to believe all your life is very bad in my opinion. This is not the topic of this thread so i will not continue with that thought.

I think that the only hope there is to legalize any drug lies in the responcible and recreational users. These are the people that do not kill people and do other crimes (at least i hope not), that make drugs look bad. Like I said before, the people against the drugs will only tell what bad things happen "tonight somebody OD'd on crack...", "this person was shot..."

i still dont think all drugs could become legal. Well maybe if they made them all legal then people would not need to make anymore and do makeshift ones. The main drugs are really marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, cocain, opium, heroin and then there are new drugs like e, foxy and all those things. I guess DMT could be a main drug. If the main drugs were legalized and nothing else then i think most people would be happy.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1714151 - 07/14/03 12:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
I think that destroying all the plants will never happen. The DEA has to be fucking idiots (well we know that is true). I mean how much would something like that cost? Plus how can they go and do that in other countries. I could see them trying to do it in the US but like Canada and over in Europe...give me a break. Plus i dont think that would solve anything because people would still grow shit and sell shit. What morons.

I agree with the above post about religious freedom and all that. It really is a natural right to do what you want to your body. It is also true that it is religious. But you know what would happen? People would all just decalre their religion so they could do drugs and they could get away with it because nobody can really deny you of your religion. That could be a potential probelm. I think you make up your own religion anyway. Being brought up in a religion and being told what to believe all your life is very bad in my opinion. This is not the topic of this thread so i will not continue with that thought.

I think that the only hope there is to legalize any drug lies in the responcible and recreational users. These are the people that do not kill people and do other crimes (at least i hope not), that make drugs look bad. Like I said before, the people against the drugs will only tell what bad things happen "tonight somebody OD'd on crack...", "this person was shot..."

i still dont think all drugs could become legal. Well maybe if they made them all legal then people would not need to make anymore and do makeshift ones. The main drugs are really marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, cocain, opium, heroin and then there are new drugs like e, foxy and all those things. I guess DMT could be a main drug. If the main drugs were legalized and nothing else then i think most people would be happy.







well...The DEA has power over the world. It doesnt matter if we dont agree with them, if we think they dont have the right to cause extinctions, or lock up our growers...it doesnt matter. We have absolutely no stance against them, they do what they want, and we can whine and bitch so they'll MAYBE have a press conference to falsely justify their doing's with the same old rhetoric. Hey...they can spray south america's coca plants, villages, food crops....hell, the whole damn place with toxic chemicals, but what the hell are villagers going to do? Theyre going to die...thats all, big deal to the DEA, they're fighting God's fight for bush to make the world poison free. So yeah...They'll genetically fuck our plants one day so we cant use them, im sure. Its too bad. The genetics will live on in University biology labs...maybe.

Like I said before, the people against the drugs will only tell what bad things happen "tonight somebody OD'd on crack...", "this person was shot..."
Just like the good guys only say the good things, we're both biased, it takes a true intellect to overcome one's personal bias..and their just arnt enough around.

I disagree with your main list of drugs..the argument is kinda All or none, right? In my mind the main drugs would be Marijuana and Hashish, cocaine, heroin, ecstacy, LSD, mushrooms, salvia...other entheogen extracts and plants...and im not sure what else.

Arguing "Itll never happen unless a drug is totally safe" or something to that effect is pointless sadly, because so many drugs that are legal (pharmaceuticals) carry great dangers. hell...even the allergy medication on TV say risks include "anal bleeding, liver hemmorage or death" and stuff like that...

We dont only need religious freedom...we need personal freedom. ive got a thread going on about how, i think...the best way for a system of legal drugs would work in OTD. (not that im in favor of total legalization)

I think...an excellent and absolutely must listen to interview ont he topic is Pharmacoetheon by Johnathan OTT. especially part 2, Downloadable here.
He is someone who makes a good argument without bias.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1714197 - 07/14/03 12:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
I think that destroying all the plants will never happen. The DEA has to be fucking idiots (well we know that is true). I mean how much would something like that cost? Plus how can they go and do that in other countries. I could see them trying to do it in the US but like Canada and over in Europe...give me a break. Plus i dont think that would solve anything because people would still grow shit and sell shit. What morons.



You should look at this: http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=81 Also do a search for 'spraying coca plants' or similar. This has been happening for a while now. I also read somwhere else that the DEA has teams of scientists (who are funded by our taxes) working on finding a virus or something like it that can destroy whole species of plants, they want to create a bioweapon that will kill all cannabis plants worldwide.

Edited by lateralus (07/14/03 12:53 PM)

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1714426 - 07/14/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

...and people wonder why we have such passion in opposition to the "good guys"


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1715557 - 07/14/03 06:39 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck the DEA
Fuck the government
Fuck humans

sorry. the shit that is going on in the world pisses me off a lot sometimes. One of those times is now. I dont want to forget like most people would want to do over a bottle of JD. I want to remember and do something about it. Isnt in the bill of rights to be able to own a weapon? 2nd amendment? The reason why that is there is so if the government becomes tyrannical and oppressive the people have a fighting chance of taking it down. Personally I believe that the government should be taken down. But then you have to look at who the government is. The government is just international corperations trying to achieve globalization and stealing money and gettting away with it. The government is just a medium between the people and the corperations and decisions between countries. So many people are blinded by media and all sorts of shit. Everyone is brainwashed into believing the government is good and everything they do is good. They are controlled by the TV. They hear some person say something on the TV and they believe it. They will see how some celebrity ont he TV and then dress like them and think that they are cool just because MTV says they are. But who controls the media...the government...thats who. The government just wants everybody to be happy in their houses and go to work everyday and do their bit in society and come back to their house and do nothing. They want you to be a consumer so they can steal your money and use it to drop bombs on countries that will not comply with them. Where are the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Wasnt that the reason for the war in the first place? Or was it the oil that the US could steal after they have taken over Iraq and globalized it with McDonalds and shopping malls? And why the fuck do they want drugs to be illegal? Whats the reasoning behind that one? (I guess that could go into a long dissucssion). I am just pissed at a lot of shit right now. Humans are just animans of this planet so why cant we live like them too? Every animal can do whatever it wants. I think the Native Indians were way more advanced that we were. They lived in small communities where practically everybody got along and they just lived peacefully...except when one tribe was on the other tribes land and then there were fights sometimes. I would like to live as an Indian back in the day before white men came along to this beautiful country. Whatever...I think I will stop ranting now. I feel better now that i wrote all that down anyway. I still feel pissed. No drugs for me anytime soon.

Out

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OfflinePDU
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1716664 - 07/14/03 10:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
Fuck the DEA
Fuck the government
Fuck humans

sorry. the shit that is going on in the world pisses me off a lot sometimes. One of those times is now. I dont want to forget like most people would want to do over a bottle of JD. I want to remember and do something about it. Isnt in the bill of rights to be able to own a weapon? 2nd amendment? The reason why that is there is so if the government becomes tyrannical and oppressive the people have a fighting chance of taking it down. Personally I believe that the government should be taken down. But then you have to look at who the government is. The government is just international corperations trying to achieve globalization and stealing money and gettting away with it. The government is just a medium between the people and the corperations and decisions between countries. So many people are blinded by media and all sorts of shit. Everyone is brainwashed into believing the government is good and everything they do is good. They are controlled by the TV. They hear some person say something on the TV and they believe it. They will see how some celebrity ont he TV and then dress like them and think that they are cool just because MTV says they are. But who controls the media...the government...thats who. The government just wants everybody to be happy in their houses and go to work everyday and do their bit in society and come back to their house and do nothing. They want you to be a consumer so they can steal your money and use it to drop bombs on countries that will not comply with them. Where are the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Wasnt that the reason for the war in the first place? Or was it the oil that the US could steal after they have taken over Iraq and globalized it with McDonalds and shopping malls? And why the fuck do they want drugs to be illegal? Whats the reasoning behind that one? (I guess that could go into a long dissucssion). I am just pissed at a lot of shit right now. Humans are just animans of this planet so why cant we live like them too? Every animal can do whatever it wants. I think the Native Indians were way more advanced that we were. They lived in small communities where practically everybody got along and they just lived peacefully...except when one tribe was on the other tribes land and then there were fights sometimes. I would like to live as an Indian back in the day before white men came along to this beautiful country. Whatever...I think I will stop ranting now. I feel better now that i wrote all that down anyway. I still feel pissed. No drugs for me anytime soon.

Out




Sadly, we all know. Its a harsh realization that comes with growing up a drug user in the information age. Ive recently lost my hope... I was constantly focused on essentially martyring myself for the cause, i ceased all social contact, i ceased anything normal, i ceased living essentially...i completely rejected :the system" and everyone who was a part of it. It was a real bummer. I decided to be happy, and that means not dwelling on every single problem in the world and putting it solely on yourself to make it a point that you disagree with and want change.
Start a geurilla revoltion...id love to see it. Armed citizens with idea's will quickly be labeled as "extremeist militia's" and will be taken out very quickly, without making a dent. Your story, your nobility wouldnt even make it to the press... you would be a "terrorist". The United State's has started a world order which is effectively keeps everywhere else dependant upon them for entertainment, economy, influence, protection, etc. No matter how many people you got, the US will not be brought down, an international allience would have to be made in agreement to either conquer the US militarily (Once again...not going to happen) or an international allience with all the major trade partners would need to cut off the US from water, fuel, lumber, mined good's, and essentially from economy to cause the government to crash where a revolutionary new government could be put in place. Nothing short of a revolution will make change now, and a revolution isnt going to happen because we (the ones who care enough to risk outselves) are outnumbered probably a 1000 to one at least, and the US has such supremeacy in super power.

Bleak...i know. Ive lost hope, ive given up, im making the best out of my life as i can right now...I think the best way to truly make effective change is to gain influence within your community (think power) or be in politics yourself....a right wing liberal...who wasnt an "extremeist".
Im sorry man....were fucked.


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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1717717 - 07/15/03 08:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well I dont think it is impossible to take down the US government. I think it could happen if enought people were in on it. Like you said, there would have to be an international alliance. I know a lot of people in the world that do not like the US.
The USA is just an empire and all empires eventually fall because they get to big and struggle from internal problems. I think that is starting to happen now. I think the downfall will be much like the Roman Empire. Where everyone just got so lazy and had big orgy's all the time and ate so much food. The infastructure will eventually fail because one government cannot control millions of people like in the US. This was the basic thinking when they made the constitution. I think that the US would be much better if the federal government were much smaller and State governments were more powerful. Then the US would be a lot like Europe I think.
I dont really want to try and solve the problem because I just dont care enough to do so. I will just sit back and let things fall apart. Meanwhile I will be in the Great White North tipping back a few cold ones and watching cities collapse on the television. Haha. That would be great. Although I dont like to see people getting killed. Thats not cool. But I would like to see the government fall to their knees and get shot in the head like they deserve.

Anyway. To change the subject...I cant think of anything to saw right now. I am at work and I am bored because they give me nothing to do. I am drinking mountain dew.

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OfflineSev
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1721185 - 07/16/03 10:12 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I guess its definately different in the states, but i think people OD'ing on super pure heroin




Just as a point of clarification ... people don't OD on super-pure heroin because it's super-pure. They OD because they're used to getting their H cut all to shit with god knows what, and then dose the pure stuff -- which they don't know is pure -- at the same rate they'd dose the crap they usually get. Because of this, they OD. If all heroin was pure, or it was all cut consistantly, ODs would happen a lot less frequently.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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OfflineSev
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1721221 - 07/16/03 10:28 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:

Start a geurilla revoltion...id love to see it. Armed citizens with idea's will quickly be labeled as "extremeist militia's" and will be taken out very quickly, without making a dent. Your story, your nobility wouldnt even make it to the press... you would be a "terrorist".
(...)
Im sorry man....were fucked.




I agree with a lot of your post -- I've gone through a similar period of depression, hopelessness, and apathy. It's wrong, though.

Yes, small groups of radicals will always be taken out. What's required for an actual (bloody, violent, quick) revolution in the US is some kind of massive polarization of the populace -- a final straw that breaks the back. I don't know if this can happen in this country, though, given the massive complacency that most Americans seem to hold in regard to the government and its doings. However ... people are getting fed up, and large masses of people are getting unhappy, desirous of change.

Economically, our society is becoming even more pyramidal, with more wealth being concentrated in the top and less in the masses. This is a classic set-up for revolution. I don't think economic forces alone will touch one off, though.

What's required is active memetic warfare against the current system, especially if we wish to undergo radical political change with a minimum of bloodshed and damage to the infrastructure. I don't know how to do this, but I know it's required. Unfortunately, this is hard -- it requires talent, it requires the vehicles of the memes to be sensible and persuasive, and it requires that the people it infects spread it to really work. People need to be, well, evangelized about their rights and the things that are wrong with this country.

...People need to be more educated, too, and taught how to think. Unfortunately, with the quality of our schools only declining, we're becoming, as a mass, more and more sheep-like. "It's wrong because it's against the law" is the best example of this unthinkingness.

Blah. Anyway. Things have to change. Things will change, eventually. It's up to us to try and make them change sooner.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

Edited by Sev (07/16/03 10:29 AM)

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OfflineIseesmurfs420
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Sev]
    #1721267 - 07/16/03 10:50 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think they should make all drugs legal. But use like a prescription to get them. That way you have insurance to pay for them and are only limited to a small ammount so addiction would be less likely. These are my thoughts I am probably wrong.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Iseesmurfs420]
    #1721452 - 07/16/03 12:02 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I dont think there will ever be a "straw that breaks the camels back." the government does such a good job brainwashing the american people that they will believe just about anything. look at the war for fuck's sake. the government does the same thing every time. they scare the people and then the people will go with whatever the solution is...even if it is made up. That way the people are happy and care free.
but the only way is to have a bloody revolt, i agree with that one at this point.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Sev]
    #1721879 - 07/16/03 02:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sev said:
Quote:

PDU said:

Start a geurilla revoltion...id love to see it. Armed citizens with idea's will quickly be labeled as "extremeist militia's" and will be taken out very quickly, without making a dent. Your story, your nobility wouldnt even make it to the press... you would be a "terrorist".
(...)
Im sorry man....were fucked.




I agree with a lot of your post -- I've gone through a similar period of depression, hopelessness, and apathy. It's wrong, though.

Yes, small groups of radicals will always be taken out. What's required for an actual (bloody, violent, quick) revolution in the US is some kind of massive polarization of the populace -- a final straw that breaks the back. I don't know if this can happen in this country, though, given the massive complacency that most Americans seem to hold in regard to the government and its doings. However ... people are getting fed up, and large masses of people are getting unhappy, desirous of change.

Economically, our society is becoming even more pyramidal, with more wealth being concentrated in the top and less in the masses. This is a classic set-up for revolution. I don't think economic forces alone will touch one off, though.

What's required is active memetic warfare against the current system, especially if we wish to undergo radical political change with a minimum of bloodshed and damage to the infrastructure. I don't know how to do this, but I know it's required. Unfortunately, this is hard -- it requires talent, it requires the vehicles of the memes to be sensible and persuasive, and it requires that the people it infects spread it to really work. People need to be, well, evangelized about their rights and the things that are wrong with this country.

...People need to be more educated, too, and taught how to think. Unfortunately, with the quality of our schools only declining, we're becoming, as a mass, more and more sheep-like. "It's wrong because it's against the law" is the best example of this unthinkingness.

Blah. Anyway. Things have to change. Things will change, eventually. It's up to us to try and make them change sooner.




The one thing that we need to win is motivation (basically what you said) However, the people pissed off at where their taxes are going, or because their grower got busted, or their childrens teachers were indoctrinating their children with DARE, or even the crack dealer in the ghetto getting hassled by the cops...They all have TOO good of lives as it is. I feel most people wouldnt have enough Push to actually act simply because living and being a little dissatisfied with your government, yet still enjoying the luxeries in life is much better than not knowing if you or your family is going to die tommorow. I wonder what the percentage of military/police/controllers is compared with angry people. We do need this revolution certainly (anyone seriously into this should check out the guerillanews.com forums) However...I think i have a more plausible plan...but hey, im still a "radical terrorist" An extensive advertising compaign needs to be done explaining why the government need's to be taken out, all those angry rednecks and the middle aged ex lawyer paying too much taxes who wants to smoke a joint...everyone that wants change needs to hold demonstrations, peaceful protests, go door to door handing out fliers, and logically explaining their stance to those willing to listen, TV (where possible) college radio stations, News papers, online...we need to let people know what we're so pissed off about in an understanding fashion. THEN we give them the solution, Stop paying your taxes. Ive read that 4% of tax payers is all thats needed to disrupt the government into submission, overthrown my default basically....4% of the american population cant be THAT many to reach.

Overall, people need to be willing to make sacrifice, and i dont see the US getting bad enough for people to sacrifice their own greedy lifestyle's, or lives. :s


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1722355 - 07/16/03 05:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

if 4% of people stopped paying taxes would be enough for the government to be taken down i think that is pathetic. that data cannot be accurate. maybe it is and i am wrong. i would like to see where you got that figure.
Lets say there are 300 million people in the US. 4% would be 12 million people. that is a lot of people and i think the government would need more people than that to be overrun. Maybe they would do something about it but that is about it. Plus 12 million people woiuld have to do it all at the same time. otherwise they would just throw you in jail.
I do agree with handing out flyers and such. then having local meetings. I mean all we would have to do is what the founders of this country did but on a larger scale probably. In this day and age i font know if that would be easier or harder. certainly commonication would be easier. but the government is very large and very powerful and they could shut you down very quickly. so i just dont know

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1722383 - 07/16/03 05:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

exactly..unless you can convince a huge number of people underground, without being detected it probably wont happen. Hahah..maybe terrorism is the answer. The FBI will now track me. HAHHAHHA.

The 4% thing i got from a link from the dude who runs the community my website is on along time ago...i dunno if its right or not, but you could quickly find out on guerillanews im sure.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1722629 - 07/16/03 06:45 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree, on the basis that "getting fucked up" may be equivalent to "expanding your consciousness." Both approaches have the same goal in mind: to alter one's consciousness. The approaches just have a different ideology behind them. While the ideology associated with "expanding consciousness" usually involves more respect and caution for psychedelic drugs, I don't think that this means that the users with the "I want to get fucked up" approach have to be eliminated. I think that trying to supress the "I want to get fucked up" approach is a War on Drugs in itself.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1724298 - 07/17/03 08:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well i think that the approach of "getting fucked up" is just a way of trying to be cool most of the time. i dont think many people think they are cool and radical and rebellious for trying to achieve a different conciousness.
your statement can be somewhat true though. but i think that when people want to get fucked up it is ego driven and when people want to achieve different conciouesness it is not. those are just my thoughts.
maybe you are right...drug users attacking drug users. kind if like a civil war while trying to have unity to fight a common goal. maybe we should just not even care and unite anyway becase i dont think there will be any way to get rid of that type of attitude. even with drugs being legal. look at alcohol for example. there are responcible drinkers and then there are college students and young people who just want to get drunk...essensially "getting fucked up"

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Offlinetooky
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1740775 - 07/23/03 10:16 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Why does legalisation have to come from revolution? From what I've read of history reviolution tends to do nothing but replace one inadequate system with another.

What needs to happen is for democracy to start working. As the public become mroe aware of the true nature of drugs and addiction, when they begin to realise that most of the social problems associated with drugs are not casued by drugs but caused by the prohibition of drugs, they will stop listening to the government, and government will have to change in line with public feeling.

This isn't going to happen over night, but the internet has already sped the process up massively. People need to start campaigning for a change in the law, they need to educate the masses, they need to use the system to change the system.

Who needs revolution when the people rule themselves?


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: tooky]
    #1741636 - 07/23/03 03:51 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

the people are not in control of themselves. they just think they are. they are controlled by the media and shit. sometimes revolution is the only way to get things done. look at how this country was formed. i think it would be retarded to make a revolution becuause what would you revolt againt? best way is to forcefully let the government change the laws.
i dont understand people who did drugs when they were younger and then when they grow up and have kids they are so against it. i think it is because they let themselves get soft and they give into what the government wants you to believe about drugs. even weed.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1741655 - 07/23/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, i think democracy truly working is as likely as communism truly working.

I mean...its just not going to work for everyone, its going to work for the majority, and we, the drug campaigners arnt the majority.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1743965 - 07/24/03 07:56 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You're right we aren't the majority, but attitudes are changing. Perhaps in the USA they are changing more slowly than elsewhere, but they are changing.

The drug campaigners have to continue the fight against the misinformation spread by the governments. Drug use is becoming more and more widespread in the face of the US government's war on drugs. The public need people, like the people in this forum, to show them how ineffectual the war on drugs is, to show them that battliong against drugs won't fix the problems they see, because those problems are caused by the war on drugs.

Don't try to fight against the war on drugs, spend your energy discrediting it. Run for office as a single policy candidate, perhaps as pro-marijuana candidate. Write letters to your representatives. Its not illegal to talk about drugs, so start talking!


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: tooky]
    #1744261 - 07/24/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tooky said:
You're right we aren't the majority, but attitudes are changing. Perhaps in the USA they are changing more slowly than elsewhere, but they are changing.

The drug campaigners have to continue the fight against the misinformation spread by the governments. Drug use is becoming more and more widespread in the face of the US government's war on drugs. The public need people, like the people in this forum, to show them how ineffectual the war on drugs is, to show them that battliong against drugs won't fix the problems they see, because those problems are caused by the war on drugs.

Don't try to fight against the war on drugs, spend your energy discrediting it. Run for office as a single policy candidate, perhaps as pro-marijuana candidate. Write letters to your representatives. Its not illegal to talk about drugs, so start talking!




I absolutely agree with your last paragraph...i talk...alot, and change those perspectives who i can. However, i dont think a bunch of shroomers (or anyone else) is going to make the US fed's realize that "how ineffectual the war on drugs is, to show them that battliong against drugs won't fix the problems they see". Why? Because they arrest cancer patients for taking medicine! Its a war on drugs more so than on the problem's they cause.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1744271 - 07/24/03 10:13 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well they think their motivation for getting rid of drugs is because of all the people that make it bad. the only reason why people kill and stuff is because it is illegal. it is a circle of doom

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1744383 - 07/24/03 11:00 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"the only reason why people kill and stuff is because it is illegal"

Thats obviously a false, not well thought out statement that most drug users would be more than willing to accept.

People Kill because Of the money involved, there will still be people robbing, mugging, and screwing whoever if drug's are involved. As bill hicks says "drugs are pretty important to a drug addict" a person hooked on drug's, or even just looking for the easy way are still going to commit crime to get drug's. If theres a supply, the demand(ers) will find a way to get their drug's no matter what.



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Offlinelateralus
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1745029 - 07/24/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
People Kill because Of the money involved, there will still be people robbing, mugging, and screwing whoever if drug's are involved. As bill hicks says "drugs are pretty important to a drug addict" a person hooked on drug's, or even just looking for the easy way are still going to commit crime to get drug's. If theres a supply, the demand(ers) will find a way to get their drug's no matter what.




You're right, there will always be a few uneducated idiots who will kill/cheat/steal to get their drugs. Correct me if Im wrong, but you appear to think that the numbers of these people will increase. I don't believe it because:

1 there will always be a core percentage of uneducated and/or violent people who will become addicted to the point of violence/theft (with almost ANY activity or lifestyle, not just drug users).

2 There is no data to indicate that the number of these people would increase, as a matter of fact, in places where certain drugs have already been legalized statistics indicate quite the contrary (ex: Amsterdam/marijuana: the number of recreational users INCREASED because of legalization and the numbers of addicts DECREASED).

3 People who would become violent and addicted to drugs ALREADY ARE! Drugs arent hard to get and anyone with these propensities is going to be doing these violent things regardless of legal status.

I think this is one of the reasons drugs dont become legalized. People have been made to believe the falsehood of an epidemic of violence and addiction, when in fact its the farthest thing from the truth. This is a scare tactic people need to quit buying into.

Edit:Ack, I need to quit replying to this post, Ive come to the point where Im repeating myself. No hard feelings PDU I know you would like to see drugs legal as well.

Edited by lateralus (07/24/03 04:43 PM)

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1745541 - 07/24/03 06:02 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Hah, You bet man. Drug's are a fucked up thing and theres no bottom line completely correct solution. We need to practice harm reduction, and we need to make it work.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1747008 - 07/25/03 03:01 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
i dont think a bunch of shroomers (or anyone else) is going to make the US fed's realize that "how ineffectual the war on drugs is, to show them that battliong against drugs won't fix the problems they see".



I'm not just talking about a bunch of shroomers convincing the feds. I'm talking about an organised group of people willing to try and take the message to the public. There is a political party int he UK called the legalise cannabis alliance. They stand in elections (national and local) on the single issue of cannabis legalisation. As part of the political process they campaign for the legalisation of cannabis, they distribute information about cannabis, and they play a real part in the fight for legalisation. They don't win seats but they do win votes, and people hear their arguments. The party is growing, and I'm thinking of standing as a candidate myself at some point. If they get enough candidates they are allowed a Party Political Broadcast where they will be allowed to voice their policies on national television.

Like I say these things take time, and they have to be done piece by piece, but if people ever want to see changes they need to get the message to the general public.

I'm under no illusions, I doubt 'll ever see all drugs being legal, but one day, I might see cannabis being legalised.


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--
"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life."

- Terry Pratchett, Jingo, 1997

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