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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1693601 -

gnrm:

How can you justify the legalization of some drugs and not others. How can you explain to the guys in prison, 'ok you, you, and you get to go home. You don't because you snorted some crack instead of smoking the reefer'
You can't do that, if you do it may be ok for a year or two, then there will just be another group of people saying "make my drug legal". IMHO it should be all or none. This may make it harder to control and do, but you can't have it both ways. Either drugs are bad/illegal/immoral or they are not. While I agree some drugs are more addictive, have a better chance that you will get addicted or have some type of problem for them. Isn't that up to the user to decide if they want to chance it. The same as it is up to the user of pot or mushrooms if they want to take it and maybe have problems later in life, same for an alcoholic or a smoker.. You can't just take some and say ok, but the rest are no good..



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But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693747 -

polarity said:
gnrm:

How can you justify the legalization of some drugs and not others. How can you explain to the guys in prison, 'ok you, you, and you get to go home. You don't because you snorted some crack instead of smoking the reefer'
You can't do that, if you do it may be ok for a year or two, then there will just be another group of people saying "make my drug legal". IMHO it should be all or none. This may make it harder to control and do, but you can't have it both ways. Either drugs are bad/illegal/immoral or they are not. While I agree some drugs are more addictive, have a better chance that you will get addicted or have some type of problem for them. Isn't that up to the user to decide if they want to chance it. The same as it is up to the user of pot or mushrooms if they want to take it and maybe have problems later in life, same for an alcoholic or a smoker.. You can't just take some and say ok, but the rest are no good..




What are you talking about? Thats how it is now, so you sure can have it..some but not all.

"then there will just be another group of people saying "make my drug legal""

Thats how it is. Basically that post explained the current situation exactly.

How can you justify the legalization of some, and not others? By looking at the potential for abuse danger and death which is individual to each substance. Yes...we know we should have personal freedom to do ingest whatever we want no matter how dangerous, but look at reality...Its not going to be ALL or NONE. The US would be more prepared to go for NONE rather than ALL dont you think? Are you prepared for NONE?


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693824 -

Peer pressure. Social, political, professional, you name it. also the stigma that places certain ideals on a group of people. Take for example the way society expects men to act when it comes to dating. If a man sleeps with a lot of women it is acceptable, if a woman does it then she's a slut. Same goes for drug use, a lot of teenagers use drugs as a way of initiation or a method for allowing someone into their social group or to gain acceptance from a group of people. This is what recreational drug use stems from. A social order that some people deem neccessary in order to feel superior to someone else or to another social group. Also, providing the correct information regarding drugs, such as their physcial and mental effects, their long term effects and so on. The elimination of false information that over the years the majority of society regards as true. The overall sense of belonging, this along with the described reasons above all stem from human nature, and until we can accept each other as equals then the war on drugs will continue to be fought and lost.

But that's just my humble opinion.


--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: soochi]
    #1694040 -

PDU: that is how it will most likely be. It's a simple fact that people will never be happy. What would make them legalize pot and not mushrooms, or the other way around. Don't get me wrong, I would rather that something was legal, but it will never end. If they decide to make pot legal they are just going to go through the exact thing in another few years with mushrooms, or x, or something else. It doesn't matter what the potential for danger or death is. Bottom line is people are never happy with what they have. Legalizing pot will just be one step. There would have to be many many more to follow if they wanted to make this argument die.

People are saying legalizing it would make less violence around the drugs right? Why, if you leave all the "hardcore" drugs illegal you did nothing. You made it easier to get pot or mushrooms or something like that. You will still have all the stealing/killing/etc that goes along with a true addiction. Even if it's legal it will still be there. The only real reason to make drugs legal, because the people want it, and even that reason is questionable. It's a fact that can't really be argued.



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1694487 -

From reading gnrm's post, I don't see where he was favouring legalising one drug over another. He listed options for cannabis, pyschedelics AND hard drugs.

Edited by Sheepish (07/07/03 08:52 PM)

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Sheepish]
    #1695686 -

used to be able to buy morphine, heroin, & cocaine products from the sears catalog...
and "soothing syrups" and all sorts of herbals preparations could be legally purchased at your local apothecary...
and the main pressure against drug usage (and alcohol usage, etc) was from societal disapproval...
and the percentage of people with serious substsance abouse problems was pretty much the same as it is today...
but the shrill yelpings of politicians (against opiate users, cocaine usres, alcohol users, marihuana users, psychedelic users) got laws passed making the users criminals...
adults should be allowed to do as they wish with their own bodies and minds...
i think that a heroin addict should be able to purchase pure junk at medical supply prices...
hell, if you think that strychnine is a medicinal tonic (and it is), go for it....
and if you think that jimpson weed will cure your reality problem, well, there aren't any laws against it (well, not against the plant...) well, good luck...
you'd rather do PMA instead of MDMA? well, why?
one possible good thing about governmental controls would be the purity issue, no?
the problem is that people who seriously fuck themselves up still end up somehow having "the state" pay for their screwups...
and who should pay the medical bills (hell, the funeral expenses) for the casualties??? in this statist/capitalist society, somebody ends up having to foot the bill... and that seems to be a problem...
and, you must admitt, there are risks involved with consuming drugs... there are risks riding a plane, flying a plane,parachuting out of a plane, skiing, driving a car, smoking a cigarette, rollerblading... and some of them can be covered by insurance... some of them require insurance... maybe as part of "drug user licensing" could involve not only required education/testing, but fees/insurance/taxes to help pay for the casualties... (does some of the exorbinant taxes imposed on cigarettes (in the united states) go to pay for educational advertisment & medical expenses for the population at large, and smmokers in particular? and how much is revenue for the general fund?)
thorny problems, but in general, i support access to a variety of medicaments (including psychotropics) the the adult population... but not totally "unrestriced" access to everything...
but, realistically, the present governmental system (and medical, and society at large) are not ready for that...
and some of the riskier activites should have more limits than some of the relatively safer ones, imho...
~
remember to register to vote, & remember to vote on election day...
~
oh yeah: DENNIS KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004 !!!
~
heh
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1695752 -

i feel more responsible when I am fucked up.

hahahaha

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: dilatedcreature]
    #1695761 -

gnrm: I retract my statement, I reread your post and I think we are saying the same thing. Sorry about that, I thought you were saying that we should only legalize pot.

I'm really enjoying this converstaion, I hope you keep it up guys. It gives me something to do and to think about while I'm at work (my job is rather boring).


--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1696052 -

Ok, first of all, I think this whole voting thing has been completely corrupted. you only have two choices, if you can call them that. You either vote for democrat or republican. And what if you dont like either of them. You are fucked. There is no point voting for any other party because there is no chance that they are going to win anyway. So i dont even see how voting even really helps.
Second of all, i think it is impossible to legalize all drugs. Maybe a long time ago that was possible, but now there are so many differnt kinds of drugs out there it would be impossible to legaliza them all. Especally when new drugs are coming out all the time. I think legalizing marijuana would be a very big step. It may not be perfect but would you rather have all drgs be illegal or at least one that (almost) everybody enjoys?

Things have to be taken slowly in order to see the problems that can occur as a result. That is what Canada is doing right now. They are taking a small step by decriminalizing marijuana, but it is still illegal. Maybe after some years pass by and nothing bad happens the penalties for pot possesion in Canada will slowly deminish and eventually it will become legal. The same thing will probably happen to mushrooms and maybe eventually to all other drugs.

There are only a few drugs that people should do. Everything else is just a waste of time. There is marijuana, mushrooms, LSD, salvia, opium, alcohol, tobacco, cocainand maybe a few others that i havent mentioned. All other drugs are just spin-offs of these drugs in my opinion. If these drugs were legal why would people take substitutes?

Plus i dont think there would be hardly any dealing of drugs if they were legal. do you see people going around stealing cigarettes all the time? If the drug is available then why would people go out and steal it? Well now of course there will be some theft because people steal cigarettes all the time but it will not be as previlant as other drug crimes. Peopel are not going to go around and shoot you for a pack of cigs. If marijuana was legal why would they do the same?

And yes PDU I agree with the part about getting fucked up. Thats why i said i like getting fucked up sometimes. But that is not the only reason i use Entheogens. I use them to enlighten my thoughts. What i am saying is when people are ready they need to understand this. drugs are not just used to fuck you up. That is why non-Entheogen drugs are stupid in my opinion, even though they can be fun. Maybe we should just legalize Entheogens. But how will you define a drug as being an Entheogen....?

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1697159 -

I could classify an entheogen as something which naturally grows upon this earth that is unadultered by manufacturing process, and that can produce an eccstatic visionary experience.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1699265 -

something like that

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1700309 -

crazycanadian said:
Second of all, i think it is impossible to legalize all drugs. Maybe a long time ago that was possible, but now there are so many differnt kinds of drugs out there it would be impossible to legaliza them all. Especally when new drugs are coming out all the time. ....?


Ill tell ya how you legalize all drugs. You say 'all drugs are legal, we will no longer be arrogant enough to tell people what they can do with their bodies'. Whats so hard about that? I dont understand where youre coming from. Its very possible and very easy. Lots of people will lose jobs, 'drug war' assholes. I think they deserve to be jobless. Fuck I think they deserve to do all the prison time that they ever inflicted upon innocent people for expressing their freedom.

Are you talking about government control and taxation? or social health rehab centers? If so, these problems can be fixed with the money currently spent on the drug war very easily with a shitload of cash leftover.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1700495 -

I agree...its easy to say that all drugs should be legalized and we deserve our freedom. Though i suspect to put it into practice would be much harder. Ive seen people (close friends) get totally hooked on coke after one sniff. I am in FULL support of our freedoms, but we need to look at the facts..Look how many people get hooked on tobacco because its socially acceptable. It doesnt take long...Its a social thing that turns into a regular addiction. What would be any different about cocaine, or heroin, or others? Cocaine is alot more destructive than tobacco...and the new generations who would be raised without the drug war...raised without thinking drugs like cocaine are socially irresponsible would surly quickly destroy themselves quickly..


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1700509 -

PDU, FULL support of our freedoms also means learning to allow people to hurt themselves if they choose to. If drug "a" is deemed physically/biologically addictive...and you're willing to take the chance of getting hooked just to try it...that's on YOUR shoulders; nobody else's.

Love & Light,

Boppity

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Boppity604]
    #1700567 -

but you cant deny the social reprecussions mass addiction and social acceptance of super harmful substances would bring. That would be on all our shoulders to take care of them and take care of all the problems they cause (would junkies not still steal and mug to get a fix if they could buy blow in a corner store?)


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1700713 -

I dont believe for 1 second that legalisation across the board would lead to any more addicts than there already are. In countries where certain drugs have been legalised there is an increase in recreational use, however addiction percentages remain the same. So saying there would be a mass addiction epidemic is ignoring a history that proves otherwise.

As far as people getting hooked because of social acceptance, that could be solved quite easily with drug education starting in schools. It could be paid for with part of the money currently spent on the drug war.

I agree with boppity, people are responsible for themselves.

Speaking for myself, I think anyone who goes and gets hooked on a powerful drug because they didnt research the possible negative repercussions first, is essentially 'making their own bed and lying in it'.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1700900 -

>>but you cant deny the social reprecussions mass addiction and social acceptance of super harmful substances would bring.

Bring? With all due respect friend, they're already HERE.

Legalization is one topic; one problem. Helping addicts, regardless of what their addiction is, is another.

I would MUCH rather have addicts who want to break free be given proper treatment and therapies as well as allowed supervised doses if they want them. Better to have them being dosed by clean/pure chemicals that the therapist administers than to have them roaming/working streets for a dirty fix.

You can't say it's on our shoulders...it's still on the addicts'. THEY have to WANT to change. If you're addicted to sex or eating or a specific drug, is it on my shoulder to pity you? Or is it better that I don't pity you but show you other options with which you can empower yourself to brake the addictions you have?

Addiction is a very real problem. I'm not denying its power over people who fall into it. I've never been addicted to anything, so I can't say I know what it's like. I do know, however, that no matter how bad things get, we can still make our life "proper." It's all up to US as individuals to do what is necessary to make it right. Whether it's learning how to have a healthy relationship with our spouse, or stop lying, or get off smack. Addictions begin with the individual and his/her reality. They need to realize how they've empowered the addiction in the first place. If it's a chemical addiction, I'm all for rapid detox programs that include follow-up therapy to help keep the individual adjusted. But even that is a step they must WANT to take for themselves.

I have no right to impose anything on anyone who doesn't want to do it; no matter how much I may want them to. If someone asks me for help, I offer it the best way I know how. If someone asks for my opinion, I offer it as honestly as I know how. But I cannot do anything for anyone except show them a different way to view things...it's up to them to either agree or disagree with this new viewpoint and to internalize it and accept it as part of their new reality.

Love & Light,

Boppity

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Boppity604]
    #1700953 -

Comparing fast food or tobacco or whatever you think are "already here" to cocaine and heroin is just...not a good argument. Sure i guess pharms such as oxycotin are "already here" and very destructive...Look at the abuse of oxycotin..i remember a year or so ago seeing all the tv specials about the "epidemic"...you dont think legal cocaine and heroin would follow a similar route?

You mentioned wanting addicts to be in supervised settings with a pure chemical...Well that costs more. Does an addict care...especially when he doesnt have money? As any regular drug user knows...a "ritual" of use develops...be it smoking or injecting or whatever...Why would an addict wait longer to get more money to get cleaner stuff and ruin his ritual?

About being on our shoulders, i wasnt refering to pity. Socially...whose going to take care of all these socially acceptable addicts...that start selling their possession's, and getting behind on the rent? Stealing? Most addicts might want to change...but its not as easy as that, its a culture and its the most important part of their lifes. Its like cutting yourself off from your family for the rest of your life, who would want to do that?

I mean...you said we would have to have real drug education in school's. What are you thinking? We all know what smoking does to you, hell...in my highschool we had to rate anti drug and anti tobacco commercials...some of which were certainly graphic, did that stop at least 75% of my friends from getting addicted? Curiosity would get the best of these people...I imagine Coke would still have same "highclass" stigma it has now...and that attracts people to it. When i was a kid...hell, until i was in JR high i didnt think there was cocaine anywhere around me, when it was all around me. I thought cocaine was the devil...everyone did, and now its a school full of coke heads...Its not just my school... I imagine this would happen much sooner if we had of all known it was around, perhaps in a corner store, or medicine cabinet.

It is my belief Legalizing all drug's would never happen without a revolution, and its basically idealistic illusion of grandeur.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1701154 -

PDU said:
Comparing fast food or tobacco or whatever you think are "already here" to cocaine and heroin is just...not a good argument. Sure i guess pharms such as oxycotin are "already here" and very destructive...Look at the abuse of oxycotin..i remember a year or so ago seeing all the tv specials about the "epidemic"...you dont think legal cocaine and heroin would follow a similar route?


So youre saying because some drugs have more negative consequences than other drugs, we need to illegalise and imprison responsible users of the same drug because of it?
PDU said:
You mentioned wanting addicts to be in supervised settings with a pure chemical...Well that costs more. Does an addict care...especially when he doesnt have money? As any regular drug user knows...a "ritual" of use develops...be it smoking or injecting or whatever...Why would an addict wait longer to get more money to get cleaner stuff and ruin his ritual?


Drugs sold by the government would not only be safer, but be cheaper than they are on the street now by cutting out the middlemen, the black market.
PDU said:
About being on our shoulders, i wasnt refering to pity. Socially...whose going to take care of all these socially acceptable addicts...that start selling their possession's, and getting behind on the rent? Stealing? Most addicts might want to change...but its not as easy as that, its a culture and its the most important part of their lifes. Its like cutting yourself off from your family for the rest of your life, who would want to do that?


First of all there will be no 'socially acceptable addicts'. Being a person who has no control of yourself will still be unacceptable to most of society. Second, these addicts will be no larger in number than they are now. Think about it, if they legalised crack tomorrow, would you go out and do it? I know I wouldnt, and the people that *would* are already doing it regardless of legality.
PDU said:
I mean...you said we would have to have real drug education in school's. What are you thinking? We all know what smoking does to you, hell...in my highschool we had to rate anti drug and anti tobacco commercials...some of which were certainly graphic, did that stop at least 75% of my friends from getting addicted? Curiosity would get the best of these people...I imagine Coke would still have same "highclass" stigma it has now...and that attracts people to it. When i was a kid...hell, until i was in JR high i didnt think there was cocaine anywhere around me, when it was all around me. I thought cocaine was the devil...everyone did, and now its a school full of coke heads...Its not just my school... I imagine this would happen much sooner if we had of all known it was around, perhaps in a corner store, or medicine cabinet.


Notice how you said 'and now its a school full of cokeheads' This happened regardless of legality didnt it?
PDU said:
It is my belief Legalizing all drug's would never happen without a revolution, and its basically idealistic illusion of grandeur.


Its not a 'delusion of grandeur' it can be a reality if more people quit looking at it through eyes glazed over with propaganda and outright untruths. This is the problem that needs to be solved before drugs can have any hope of becoming legal. People need to stop bullshitting themselves like this.
I think Terence McKenna said it well:
"The living fact of the mystery of being is there, and it is an inalienable religious right to be able to approach it on one's own terms. A civilised society would enshrine that principle in law.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1701308 -

"So youre saying because some drugs have more negative consequences than other drugs, we need to illegalise and imprison responsible users of the same drug because of it?"

No, im asking for you to address the problems that legalizing these drugs will create rather than avoiding the issues at hand. Whose going to take responsibility for those who arnt responsible? In western culture where drug's arnt seen in a religious or sacramental or even "special" thing by MOST people, responsibility isnt a main concern with ...dare i say...a majority of drug users. So...how about it? What about the irresponsible ones..


"Drugs sold by the government would not only be safer, but be cheaper than they are on the street now by cutting out the middlemen, the black market."

How? The government isnt immune to greed...we all know that. Earlier in this thread people were ranting about capitalizing off the gigantic amount of profit legalizing all drugs would make. How is it going to be cheaper...hiring medical professionals, in specially built places to harbor addicts, who would administer the highest quality most refined product to PEOPLE WITH NO MONEY.


"First of all there will be no 'socially acceptable addicts'. Being a person who has no control of yourself will still be unacceptable to most of society. Second, these addicts will be no larger in number than they are now. Think about it, if they legalised crack tomorrow, would you go out and do it? I know I wouldnt, and the people that *would* are already doing it regardless of legality."

Has tobacco not become an acceptable addiction? Crap food? Even alcohol...the business man that comes home 6 nights a week and has 3 shots and 2 beers, perfectly acceptable. And as i said...with easier availability and very little demonization, the future generations, i feel, would be more inclined to quench their curiosity. Perhaps feeling a bit sad...go to the corner store and sniff a line. ya know? YES, people who arnt going to deal with the dirty dealer on the corner store who might be selling heroin cut with drywall WOULD be MUCH MORE inclined to go to the pharmacy where they could be just like the people buying their mind altering prozac and paxil perscriptions.

"Notice how you said 'and now its a school full of cokeheads' This happened regardless of legality didnt it?"

Sure did, and now my friends have holes in their nose's, and nasty habits they cant get off of. Yup, ive discovered their pulling major B'N'E's, and even getting involved with seriously hurting people. So why would you want to perpetate such a thing...as it happens nearly everywhere there are addicts to menacing substances.

Theres no difference to an addict if he's giving his dirty money to a store or to a street dealer..he's still getting his fix.

"Its not a 'delusion of grandeur' it can be a reality if more people quit looking at it through eyes glazed over with propaganda and outright untruths. This is the problem that needs to be solved before drugs can have any hope of becoming legal. People need to stop bullshitting themselves like this."

It could happen..maybe..maybe one day. But do you think the american government is going to just say to the people "everything we've forced on you for the past 70 years regarding substances was a lie. We are liers" Of course not, Lord only knows what would happen if most of the state's were revealed the truth...the revolution might just happen. "Re educating" the american people would basically be a kick in the face and calling them fools, and i dont think they would take kindly to that.
I think many other issues not be resolved aside from propaganda and half truths. You can start with my questions above.
(im enjoying this debate...its weird because im in support of your side, just more jaded than you, i suppose ive lost my hope.)


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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