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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Responcible and recreational Entheogen users?
    #1692727 - 07/07/03 12:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If you have not read my post in the "Is Entheogen Popularity on the rise?" thread please do, it will clarify the question that i have.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1683775&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Anyway, here is the question I have:
I believe in order to win the war on drugs we must eliminate a particular kind of drug users. These are the ones who "just want to get fucked up," and "be cool." It is up to us in order make these kind of people less and less and make more responceble and recreational entheogen users. I was wondering if any of you could share you thoughts on how to either eliminate (not kill or anything like that) or convert these kind of people into responcible people like ourselves (hopefully there are these kind of people reading this post).

Thank you.




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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1692734 - 07/07/03 12:36 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!


but I don't think that there's any real way to get rid of them, but it does need to be done.


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1692862 - 07/07/03 01:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

while I somewhat agree with you and I want to see everything legalized (I'm a big fan of personal freedom) you can't really do that. I mean, what would give you the power to condem someone elses reasons. Also, once it was legal, wouldn't this type of person get into them anyway. I belive they should make it all legal, and the ones who are stupid with it will kill themselves off anyway.


--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.


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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693037 - 07/07/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I somewhat agree. But I am not saying to make everything legal. Of course making things legal will create problems in its own. I believe these problems will not be nearly as bad as the ones we have now.
What i dont seem to understand is how the government cannot learn from their mistakes. The prohibition for example. Once you let people have something that they like you cannot take it away. Its just like parenting. If you let your child have certain responcibilities you cannot take them away without them ignoring you and doing them anyway. causing you to get angry becuse of your arogance and the child to get angry because of your tyranny. i am sorry for the ranting.

I think what we need is more people that use drugs in a civilized mannwr to go out and encourage druge use in the same kind of manner. that is what i do anyway.

of course there are people who just want to get fucked up and i dont really see the problem with just that. i often just want to get drunk and get stupid. when it becomes a problem is when your actions start to harm either yourself or other people.

i think one of the contributing factors in wanting the government to keep marijuana illegal is because it makes people lazy. it is a proven fact done by studies in cultures that smoke weed. it also leads to memory loss. as a government would you suddenly wanting all the people in your country becoming unproductive? NO. of course not. and you dont want all the people loosing their memory as they get older. but you have to remember that this is mostly caused by people who smoke all the time, heavily.
the government knows that there is nothing wrong with smoking a litte weed ever now and then. but they do know that is it not healthy to smoke a lot all the time. isnt that the reason why they had the prohibition in the first place. now people have learned their lesson and there is a lot less heavy drinking now as there was back then. I think that the government wants the people to learn their lesson. the lesson is to not smoke all the time an treat marijuana as you would treat any intoxicating substance like alcohol.

anyway, that was a little off topic and i was ranting. I am not sure if all the information i gave was correct so dont take it so literal.

go out and enlighten people the correct way to use drugs.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693178 - 07/07/03 03:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think the first step is to go from prevention tactics to actually treating people who have a drug problem. Within the drug using population, there is a 5% or so subgroup with an inability to control their drug use. These people typically abuse alcohol, cocaine, and/or opiates. The AMA recognizes this as a "disease", and whether or not we agree with the theory of it being a "disease", these people need help. Unfortuntly drug rehabs are nothing more than people talking about how to stay sober and isn't very effective treatment. Prisions are even worse. This form of treatment is to give someone with a drug problem more hook-ups by being placed right next to drug dealers. The ironic thing is alcohol is one of the worst drugs for people with a drug problem. If this segment of the population could get help, then people would have a better understanding of the seperation between responsible drug use and abuse. Most responsible drug users are afriad to "come out" because they are afriad of being grouped with addicts. Smoking weed is almost like a secert club where people don't talk about it unless they know the other person smokes. I've always found that funny.

A big problem is illegal psychedelics are grouped with these drugs, which in turn makes the general public opinion of them negative. I personally wish psychedelics could be used by well-trained and informed psychtrists to help people understand their emotions better.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693244 - 07/07/03 03:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

well what we REALLY need is for everyone to go out, vote, protest, petition, whatever it takes, to get these things legalized, nothing's going to happen if we don't do anything about it.


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693249 - 07/07/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

*sigh* i just had a great reply typed up and the browser crashed. so here i go again.

I see what your saying, but you can't have it that way. You can't legalize one drug, and not others. If you do the same argument will continue, just from different people.

We do need more important people who use drugs to fight. We need community leaders, business owner, government officials to stand up and fight for legalization. I don't see that happening though. They are already doing them and why would they want to speak up and have society hate them for it. Society sees most drug users as the same (that's right, the guy who took some x a couple times is just as bad as the crackhead that kidnapped and raped their 12 year old daughter to get ransom money). Why would anyone of importance want to get involoved in that, lose their business or their social status.

The goverment will see that there is a ton of money to be made off this though, and I think they will eventually move twords it, after all our country is mostly run by people who are after money and power (think about it). Look at all the money to be made:

Sales & tax
Insurence (c'mon you think the 7-ll that sells crack isn't going to get robbed 15 times a day, you would have to have good insurence to sell this stuff)
Court and Lawyer fees (wrongful death suits and such. If we can sue for choking on a fry, you better belive the first kid that dies from any drug sold in a store or goverment sanctioned place is going to be sued for all they are worth).

I don't feel like denying people the right to have a substance is the way to go. People are going to drive under the influence, legal or not. People are going to shoot/kill/rob to get money for these drugs, legal or not.





--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693294 - 07/07/03 03:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I agree.. so what's the best way to go about doing this?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693305 - 07/07/03 03:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

polarity said:
I see what your saying, but you can't have it that way. You can't legalize one drug, and not others. If you do the same argument will continue, just from different people.

We do need more important people who use drugs to fight. We need community leaders, business owner, government officials to stand up and fight for legalization. I don't see that happening though. They are already doing them and why would they want to speak up and have society hate them for it......





It's a very tricky call. I don't know if I have a strong opinon on what should and shouldn't be legalized. I'd love to see, eventually, ALL drugs legalized, although if it were to happen overnight, it could be a disaster. Personality, I think Canada's softening on marijuana laws is a HUGE step, but one that isn't so big that it's going to bite us in the ass.

I agree 110% that we need more people who are viewed in the public eye as respectable to face the fear of intolerant views on drug use. Someone like Woody Harrelson has done a lot for marijuana reform, but it would be nice to see someone more conservitive and traditional to speak up as well. I think people in those positions are afriad of being written off as a left-wing hemp freak. It's a shame really, because it shouldn't have to take someone to make a certain lifestyle acceptable. It's like celebrity advertising, why does it matter that Brittany Spears is selling Pepsi? But people are influenced by what they see around them.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693351 - 07/07/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that people are influenced by what they see around them. That can be good and bad. I see more and more movies now that have people doing drugs as a casual thing. There are also a lot of movies that just have to do with drugs (Blow, Fear and Lothing, requium for a dream...). Some of these movies make it seem that drugs are bad. Some make it seem that drugs are cool. And there are some that make it seem that using drugs is just a casual thing to do. Remember the movie The Cell where J-Lo smokes a joint before going to bed?

There are a lot of people with drug problems and I agree that they need to be helped. But do you think that by making drugs legal it would worsen these problems?


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693355 - 07/07/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think there is a best way. Anyway that this happens could potentially cause alot of problems. I think they should start by sanctioning the selling of drugs (maybe open a goverment run shop in key cities), not by anyone. I think you should have to get a permit to grow your own (just to ensure that you are not selling illegally). I'm really not sure what all can be done, but there has to be a way.

I mean, when you look at it, there will have to be ALOT of changes if/when drugs become legal. Look at how many people are in/have been in jail or prison for drugs. What would we do with all of them, just release them. What about all the fines people have paid in the past for them. Lots of things to look at. I think this could be part of the reason American has not moved twords any type of legalization.



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693386 - 07/07/03 04:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think for a while, if everything just got legalized at once, it could really hurt some of the addicts. I mean availability 24/7. It would only increase the chances of them getting more. Think about it, right now if someone goes to buy crack (I know I keep using this one, it just seems like a good example of a highly abused drug, and to be honest I have no education about crack effects or addictiveness) and they mess with the dealer, they are likely to get shot. They don't want to die, they want drugs. But if they had a building that was storing mass amounts of this they might be more likely to find a way to break in (after all, then they only get jail time. not nearly as bad as 6 months of icu and then death, or hey maybe instant death) It seems that could cause a major problem.

I think there are alot of things to consider when looking at legalizing drugs. It would definatly make a huge impact on our society and our way of life. Maybe for better, maybe for worse. No one really knows. I support it simply because I don't think things you can do to yourself should be illegal.. Drugs, used on yourself I have no problem with. If I want to own an ak47 then I want to be able to buy one (I have no problem with licences and such for these things). Killing people, thats wrong it should be kept illegal, after all it involves someone other than yourself. I feel that if it is not hurting someone else, it should be legal. (and before people use this rebuttal, yes driving while using drugs would involve someone else if you got in a wreck, but same for alcohol or anything else, and it is legal. You can kill someone by not paying attention, they didnt outlaw that).

I honestly feel there are too many things to look at for the goverment to just 'make it all legal'.. but at the same time.. i dont feel that is should have ever been illegal



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.


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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693389 - 07/07/03 04:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

>>the lesson is to not smoke all the time an treat marijuana as you would treat any intoxicating substance like alcohol. <<


Yes, but I guess a lot of Americans have a hard time learning lessons as drinking and driving is still frequently practiced. The real lesson is as long as the government profits from it but goes to some extents to preach safe practice then its ok. Since they have already devilized marijuana, it would look bad on the government to bring legalization to it.

Anyone who thinks mushrooms should be legal must not realize that people are different from them; meaning not everyone could handle even 1 mushroom experience.


--------------------
AH HA....


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693391 - 07/07/03 04:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

crazycanadian said:
There are a lot of people with drug problems and I agree that they need to be helped. But do you think that by making drugs legal it would worsen these problems?





Probably not, but there have been failed attempts at making drugs legal. Most of them failed because they were stupid ideas, like I think Sweden tried to sanction a park for any type of drug use being legal. That was a dumb idea because it was asking for junkies to flock to the park, creating a bad atmosphere. However, I also saw a special about a church in Amsterdam where they sold herion to people addicted in order for them to be able to function. That was a good idea because it gave the oppertunity for people for are addicted to herion to be able to live normal lives.

My point is that for legalization to work, it has to be implemented in smart way. I don't think there necessarly a best way to do it, like polarity said, but there is a risk that if things go bad it could create an anti-drug backlash, and that's what I personaly would be afriad of.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Offlinecrazycanadian
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Twirling]
    #1693484 - 07/07/03 04:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well of course as soon as drugs became legal, or any one particular drug, there would be a big yahoo and yippe amung drug users and they would go crazy. Also a lot of people would be angry and do stupid things. I believe eventually things would calm down though. There is the potential for abuse of the drugs as there is now. Maybe to start off a regulation system could be implimented such as some type of way of keeping track of how much drugs you purchase. Myabe only limit people to 7 grams a week of marijuana or something like that. It would at least be a start...


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693505 - 07/07/03 05:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That is just impossible. I dont think the first time anyone of us here were introduced to any kind of drug when we were in middle school most likely first said "I feel so enlightened, this is life changing" we said "im so fucked up" and broke into historical laughing for hours. Humans are drawn to drugs through natural curiosity although may also be influenced by outside pressures (media influence, peer pressure, etc.)

What im trying to say, is that if we didnt have people "trying to get fucked up" we wouldnt have any new ones cross over to "our side" to use responsibly.

However, now responsibility needs to be defined, using for fun or to get fucked up is no less responsible than using to battle your inner conflicts as long as nothing is imposed on anyone else.
Everyone here seems to think its wrong to get "fucked up" but its just fine, its just another way to trip...and its a very important way to trip, because there are always those who get "fucked up" and then "realize" and have more "valid" intentions (from the elitist shroomery perspective).


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693515 - 07/07/03 05:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yup, that sounds like what a lot of countries are doing. It does prevent the intial yahoo from getting too large. In countries where marijuana, for example, is legal, it's acceptable and not a problem. I think that's a large enough model for what happens when it's taken out of the illegal market.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693517 - 07/07/03 05:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Then you would just have people who arent interested in using, buying their 7grams and reselling. Almost the same boat we are in now. I really think that if drugs weren't viewed as such a horrible thing in society maybe more addicts would be more willing to admit they have a problem and get help. Then again, maybe not.



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.


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Offlinepolarity
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: polarity]
    #1693531 - 07/07/03 05:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

PDU: Good point, I said the same earlier

Posted earlier:
"while I somewhat agree with you and I want to see everything legalized (I'm a big fan of personal freedom) you can't really do that. I mean, what would give you the power to condem someone elses reasons."



--------------------
But I?ll survive, the pain lets me know I?m alive.
But I still feel that this ain?t livin.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1693569 - 07/07/03 05:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"them as what dies is the lucky ones"
(long john silver, matey, arrrr..)
~
"think of it as evolution in action"
(from niven & pournelle: _oath of fealty)
~
lessee...
over 18, maybe, for legal cannabis purchase...
simple fines for underage use...
ummmm, legalize home cultivation (like home brewing beer & wine...)
no advertising; "processed & prepared" herb through state-licensed vendors, with state "sin tax" right there (like liquor stores in most states, maybe...)

psychedelics... a bit harder, but... similar deal, maybe with proof of age ID (though wouldn't it be nice if you had to take a real test to get a "tripping license", heh...)

"harder" drugs (i dunno, refined cocaine & narcotics, stuff with actual potential for abuse and toxicitiy) --- well, coca leaf & poppy pods are one th ing, but pure alkaloids might need tighter controls --- well, high-quality smack would only cast a couple dollars per day, but have it licensed to "registered" narco users, with stiff penalties for "reselling" to non-licensed individuals...

~
~
no more criminals with turf wars...
no more crooked cops on the take...
no more courts clogged with victimless crimes (or what should be simple business transactions between consenting adults...)
no more jails filled with people whose mistake was looking for a "buzz" not sanctioned by the state...
no more locking up people for liking the wrong kind of plants...
no more legislating morality...
~
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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